Possible slave cylinder problem
Thread Starter
jobberone
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,062
Likes: 8
From: Kailua Kona HI
Possible slave cylinder problem
I gave my 99 FRC to my son which is his daily driver. The car has sat for the last month until he finished school this week. He's done his research and talked with me and we settled on dirty hydraulic fluid as the reason the car intermittently doesn't go into gear on occasion. Sometimes it's all of them and others first then reverse then all of them.
I finally talked him into using the dilution method to change his fluid. The car managed to limp home by his account after this and some linkage monkeying. (It was the fluid by my account). Anyway the car got him back to his apartment and now won't engage any gears. This started rather suddenly BTW although he states there was a time when the gears were 'sticky'.
I'm guessing it's either the master or the slave cylinder but I'd like others to weigh in before I tow the car somewhere for repair. I'm not traveling all the way up there to crawl under that car and replace the slave cylinder. Is there a way to diagnose the problem better than my SWAGs? The clutch et al is relatively new. The tranny does have 80K on it. He says it is grinding some now. I bet.
Help please. Not a big mechanic here.
I finally talked him into using the dilution method to change his fluid. The car managed to limp home by his account after this and some linkage monkeying. (It was the fluid by my account). Anyway the car got him back to his apartment and now won't engage any gears. This started rather suddenly BTW although he states there was a time when the gears were 'sticky'.
I'm guessing it's either the master or the slave cylinder but I'd like others to weigh in before I tow the car somewhere for repair. I'm not traveling all the way up there to crawl under that car and replace the slave cylinder. Is there a way to diagnose the problem better than my SWAGs? The clutch et al is relatively new. The tranny does have 80K on it. He says it is grinding some now. I bet.
Help please. Not a big mechanic here.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,461
Likes: 1,166
From: Dyer, IN
I gave my 99 FRC to my son which is his daily driver. The car has sat for the last month until he finished school this week. He's done his research and talked with me and we settled on dirty hydraulic fluid as the reason the car intermittently doesn't go into gear on occasion. Sometimes it's all of them and others first then reverse then all of them.
I finally talked him into using the dilution method to change his fluid. The car managed to limp home by his account after this and some linkage monkeying. (It was the fluid by my account). Anyway the car got him back to his apartment and now won't engage any gears. This started rather suddenly BTW although he states there was a time when the gears were 'sticky'.
I'm guessing it's either the master or the slave cylinder but I'd like others to weigh in before I tow the car somewhere for repair. I'm not traveling all the way up there to crawl under that car and replace the slave cylinder. Is there a way to diagnose the problem better than my SWAGs? The clutch et al is relatively new. The tranny does have 80K on it. He says it is grinding some now. I bet.
Help please. Not a big mechanic here.
I finally talked him into using the dilution method to change his fluid. The car managed to limp home by his account after this and some linkage monkeying. (It was the fluid by my account). Anyway the car got him back to his apartment and now won't engage any gears. This started rather suddenly BTW although he states there was a time when the gears were 'sticky'.
I'm guessing it's either the master or the slave cylinder but I'd like others to weigh in before I tow the car somewhere for repair. I'm not traveling all the way up there to crawl under that car and replace the slave cylinder. Is there a way to diagnose the problem better than my SWAGs? The clutch et al is relatively new. The tranny does have 80K on it. He says it is grinding some now. I bet.
Help please. Not a big mechanic here.
Perhaps some forum members can recommend a good shop for your son to take it to.
Thread Starter
jobberone
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,062
Likes: 8
From: Kailua Kona HI
Thread Starter
jobberone
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,062
Likes: 8
From: Kailua Kona HI
I'm almost certain it's either still the fluid or a bad slave or master. But I'm just guessing. Something's making the clutch not disengage and engage properly.
Last edited by jobberone; Dec 12, 2009 at 09:03 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 983
Likes: 36
From: Middle Of Kali CA
I gave my 99 FRC to my son which is his daily driver. The car has sat for the last month until he finished school this week. He's done his research and talked with me and we settled on dirty hydraulic fluid as the reason the car intermittently doesn't go into gear on occasion. Sometimes it's all of them and others first then reverse then all of them.
I finally talked him into using the dilution method to change his fluid. The car managed to limp home by his account after this and some linkage monkeying. (It was the fluid by my account). Anyway the car got him back to his apartment and now won't engage any gears. This started rather suddenly BTW although he states there was a time when the gears were 'sticky'.
I'm guessing it's either the master or the slave cylinder but I'd like others to weigh in before I tow the car somewhere for repair. I'm not traveling all the way up there to crawl under that car and replace the slave cylinder. Is there a way to diagnose the problem better than my SWAGs? The clutch et al is relatively new. The tranny does have 80K on it. He says it is grinding some now. I bet.
Help please. Not a big mechanic here.
I finally talked him into using the dilution method to change his fluid. The car managed to limp home by his account after this and some linkage monkeying. (It was the fluid by my account). Anyway the car got him back to his apartment and now won't engage any gears. This started rather suddenly BTW although he states there was a time when the gears were 'sticky'.
I'm guessing it's either the master or the slave cylinder but I'd like others to weigh in before I tow the car somewhere for repair. I'm not traveling all the way up there to crawl under that car and replace the slave cylinder. Is there a way to diagnose the problem better than my SWAGs? The clutch et al is relatively new. The tranny does have 80K on it. He says it is grinding some now. I bet.
Help please. Not a big mechanic here.
Stock one or aftermarket? How many miles on the clutch? Did you put in a new slave with the new clutch?
Thread Starter
jobberone
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,062
Likes: 8
From: Kailua Kona HI
I've been after my son to change the hydraulic fluid for some time. He says the shifting comes and goes. I've had it checked by the dealer and it checked out fine. Looks like they were wrong. Not that many miles on the clutch. More than a little and a whole lot less than a lot.
Last edited by jobberone; Dec 12, 2009 at 09:09 PM.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,266
Likes: 8
From: Indian Rocks Beach FL
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
A lot has been made on this forum about contaminated or dirty fluid being the cause of shifting problems. There are two types of contamination possible in the clutch system, solid or liquid. A solid contaminate will cause wear on the seals and prevent the proper operation of the system. No amount of fluid changes by any method will fix this. By the time shifting has been affected the seals are damaged and only replacement will solve the problem. The only liquid contamination I can think would occur in these systems would be water through condensation. Water is slightly more compressible than hydraulic fluid and will cause the system to function poorly but the amount of water necessary could not occur by condensation in a sealed system. Bottom line, I don't see how a fluid change could possibly solve any shifting problems, ever. I know there are plenty on here who have and will claim a fluid change made their car like new. To them I say, sorry, can't happen.
Thread Starter
jobberone
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,062
Likes: 8
From: Kailua Kona HI
A lot has been made on this forum about contaminated or dirty fluid being the cause of shifting problems. There are two types of contamination possible in the clutch system, solid or liquid. A solid contaminate will cause wear on the seals and prevent the proper operation of the system. No amount of fluid changes by any method will fix this. By the time shifting has been affected the seals are damaged and only replacement will solve the problem. The only liquid contamination I can think would occur in these systems would be water through condensation. Water is slightly more compressible than hydraulic fluid and will cause the system to function poorly but the amount of water necessary could not occur by condensation in a sealed system. Bottom line, I don't see how a fluid change could possibly solve any shifting problems, ever. I know there are plenty on here who have and will claim a fluid change made their car like new. To them I say, sorry, can't happen.
That's why I've been after him for many months to clean the damn fluid out. Plus, the less the clutch disengages the more work the synchros have to do and the quicker they wear out.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,266
Likes: 8
From: Indian Rocks Beach FL
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
Again I'm not a mechanic but I've been around for a few years. I disagree with you. Not only can a fair amount of water get into the system, but that water causes problems with rust which makes for more solid matter and can lead to loss of function by mechanical means. It's not the amount of water that causes dysfunction but the amount of damage it does to parts and seals.
That's why I've been after him for many months to clean the damn fluid out. Plus, the less the clutch disengages the more work the synchros have to do and the quicker they wear out.
That's why I've been after him for many months to clean the damn fluid out. Plus, the less the clutch disengages the more work the synchros have to do and the quicker they wear out.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,266
Likes: 8
From: Indian Rocks Beach FL
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
The system is not vented. If you remove your cap you will find a rubber diaphragm that expands as the fluid level drops. The diaphragm seals off the system from outside air and prevents an air gap on top of the fluid level. The vent in the cap is there to allow the diaphragm to expand. If you were going to get water from condensation, it would gather in the diaphragm but never come in contact with the hydraulic fluid.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 983
Likes: 36
From: Middle Of Kali CA
The system is not vented. If you remove your cap you will find a rubber diaphragm that expands as the fluid level drops. The diaphragm seals off the system from outside air and prevents an air gap on top of the fluid level. The vent in the cap is there to allow the diaphragm to expand. If you were going to get water from condensation, it would gather in the diaphragm but never come in contact with the hydraulic fluid.
All we know is that a C-5 clutch has it's HAPPY times and it's miserable times. If ZERO moisture were in the system, no gassing would occure at high temps. So RANGER might be onto something as to what contaminates the fluid
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,266
Likes: 8
From: Indian Rocks Beach FL
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
I couldn't agree more. The many MYSTERIES of the C-5 clutch issues perplex us all. The Ranger thought is clutch dust getting into the mix. Most all think how is this happining. Seals and dust boots prevent this?
All we know is that a C-5 clutch has it's HAPPY times and it's miserable times. If ZERO moisture were in the system, no gassing would occure at high temps. So RANGER might be onto something as to what contaminates the fluid
All we know is that a C-5 clutch has it's HAPPY times and it's miserable times. If ZERO moisture were in the system, no gassing would occure at high temps. So RANGER might be onto something as to what contaminates the fluid
I readily accept Ranger's finding that there was clutch dust in his fluid. The dust can settle on the sealing surfaces in the system and degrade the seals to the point of allowing the dust to enter. My point is once this has happened changing the fluid will not solve the problem because the seals are already degraded.
Thread Starter
jobberone
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,062
Likes: 8
From: Kailua Kona HI
Water is not the only fluid that will gas. All will just at different temps. Most fluids, most materials for that matter, will have some moisture but the amount in the fluid we use is miniscule and will not affect the system under normal operating conditions.
I readily accept Ranger's finding that there was clutch dust in his fluid. The dust can settle on the sealing surfaces in the system and degrade the seals to the point of allowing the dust to enter. My point is once this has happened changing the fluid will not solve the problem because the seals are already degraded.
I readily accept Ranger's finding that there was clutch dust in his fluid. The dust can settle on the sealing surfaces in the system and degrade the seals to the point of allowing the dust to enter. My point is once this has happened changing the fluid will not solve the problem because the seals are already degraded.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,266
Likes: 8
From: Indian Rocks Beach FL
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
Now, with all that said I hope you didn't come away thinking I feel there is no merit to changing the fluid as a maintenance issue. Removing contaminants is always a good idea and I believe the fluid will show contamination well before the degradation of the seals actually affects the operation of the system. Spend any time around any hydraulic system and you soon realize they all leak to some extent. Removing the contaminants can significantly extend the life of the system. I just don't believe that once the system is no longer functioning properly changing the fluid will solve the problem.
Thread Starter
jobberone
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,062
Likes: 8
From: Kailua Kona HI
Now, with all that said I hope you didn't come away thinking I feel there is no merit to changing the fluid as a maintenance issue. Removing contaminants is always a good idea and I believe the fluid will show contamination well before the degradation of the seals actually affects the operation of the system. Spend any time around any hydraulic system and you soon realize they all leak to some extent. Removing the contaminants can significantly extend the life of the system. I just don't believe that once the system is no longer functioning properly changing the fluid will solve the problem.
Does this require dropping the tranny? He wants to put some kind of bleeder on it.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 983
Likes: 36
From: Middle Of Kali CA
Great writeup right here with tons of pics.
A speed bleeder is what he is talking about. To bleed a stock master setup, you will spend 3+ hours doing so. Some have had leak issues with the fittings on their remote bleeders.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,266
Likes: 8
From: Indian Rocks Beach FL
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
A remote bleeder will make flushing the system easier and more effective but recently I have read on the forum a couple accounts of difficulty getting the bleeder to seal properly. I think if I were to do this job today I would shy away from one and just use a baster to flush. As with most things, the stock system just may be the best.