Alignment Specs
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 71
From: MA
Toe out?
Not with 1/32"
Not loose but precise steering input.
Most ppl are just use to poor alignments and steering response.
You could run 0 Toe and 0 neg camber, plus 6.9* Right front caster and 6.0* left front. too accommodate for right lane highway driving and road camber.
However, when you get to good flat road, with a few twistie, you find out how so called "Good" highway alinement is really poor for driving.
Not loose but precise steering input.
Most ppl are just use to poor alignments and steering response.
You could run 0 Toe and 0 neg camber, plus 6.9* Right front caster and 6.0* left front. too accommodate for right lane highway driving and road camber.
However, when you get to good flat road, with a few twistie, you find out how so called "Good" highway alinement is really poor for driving.
I suggest reading this short description of the effects of alignment geometries:
http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
Here is a paragraph summarizing why Toe Out results in highway instability:
"If the car is set up with toe-out, however, the front wheels are aligned so that slight disturbances cause the wheel pair to assume rolling directions that do describe a turn. Any minute steering angle beyond the perfectly centered position will cause the inner wheel to steer in a tighter turn radius than the outer wheel. Thus, the car will always be trying to enter a turn, rather than maintaining a straight line of travel. So it's clear that toe-out encourages the initiation of a turn, while toe-in discourages it."
When my car has some toe in it tracks better. Anyhow, this works for me. GM specifies a slight Toe In for all around driving
Last edited by 01vetter; Sep 16, 2012 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Added reference
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 71
From: MA
Toe out wears inner edge info.
Instead of just making claims why don't you explain why? Toeing in 45* would give the wheels some level of camber around -4* so the wheels would be riding heavily on their inside edges. So, why would the tire wear on the outside edge? Also. I had excessive camber and toe-in on my car and it was eating the inside edges off the tires which is contrary to your statement.
http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
Here is a paragraph from this article:
"For minimum tire wear and power loss, the wheels on a given axle of a car should point directly ahead when the car is running in a straight line. Excessive toe-in or toe-out causes the tires to scrub, since they are always turned relative to the direction of travel. Too much toe-in causes accelerated wear at the outboard edges of the tires, while too much toe-out causes wear at the inboard edges."
So if you combine toe out with negative camber you can say by-by to your inner edges! Ask me how I know!
Your wear depends on the how aggressive your camber was set. You could have had a large negative camper and a small amout of toe in. Remember that you loose toe in at highway speeds due to flex of your bushings. Also, if you take a lot of tight corners (like in parking garages) you will get even more inner edge tire wear.
Hope this helps!
Last edited by 01vetter; Sep 16, 2012 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Added details
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,152
Likes: 890
From: South Western Ontario
Well, you can also say by-by to the inner edges with toe in. My car was at -1.1* camber and 0.4* toe and it destroyed the inside edge on the old tires that came on the car.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,152
Likes: 890
From: South Western Ontario
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 71
From: MA
Lionelhutz, are you running Goodyear EMTs (stock tires)? If yes, they don't like large camber due to stiff sidewalls. I found that even -.2* caused excessive inner tire wear. -1.1* would be a lot of camber for stock run flats.
As for the reason why toe out wears the inner edge, tires have flexible sidewalls. When you toe out the tire rolls over its sidewall slightly. This changes the tire patch so that more inner edge is on the road than outer edge. You then drag the tire and this scrubs more rubber off the inner edge than the outer edge. The reverse is true for toe in.
As for the reason why toe out wears the inner edge, tires have flexible sidewalls. When you toe out the tire rolls over its sidewall slightly. This changes the tire patch so that more inner edge is on the road than outer edge. You then drag the tire and this scrubs more rubber off the inner edge than the outer edge. The reverse is true for toe in.
Last edited by 01vetter; Sep 16, 2012 at 11:03 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 128
Likes: 21
From: Meridian ID
Pfadt Racing alignment specs
Pfadt Racing alignment specs (these are the specs I use):
http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-c...-9.12.2011.pdf
Be sure to note that the negative number for toe values in the Pfadt specs is toe IN
My current alignment numbers for my DD 2000 Coupe are:
Front camber -0.7 left and right
Caster +7.4 left and +7.8 right
Front toe 0.0 left and right to allow for bushing flex slight toe out
Rear camber -0.4 left and right
Rear toe 0.1 left and right TOE IN
I have ZERO rut hunting problems with this set up and the car is stable all the time.
Most modern tires are designed to accept light negative camber angles with no unusual tire wear. This is due to the nature of vehicles manufactured in the last 15 or so years running negative camber numbers from the factory.
Heck, I've been running my 1978 Malibu at -0.5 camber and 1/16" toe OUT for the last 20 years as a daily driver. ZERO abnormal tire wear. Except for the back tires. They run out of tread pretty quick.
But that tread wear is EVEN across the tires.
HTHY
http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-c...-9.12.2011.pdf
Be sure to note that the negative number for toe values in the Pfadt specs is toe IN
My current alignment numbers for my DD 2000 Coupe are:
Front camber -0.7 left and right
Caster +7.4 left and +7.8 right
Front toe 0.0 left and right to allow for bushing flex slight toe out
Rear camber -0.4 left and right
Rear toe 0.1 left and right TOE IN
I have ZERO rut hunting problems with this set up and the car is stable all the time.
Most modern tires are designed to accept light negative camber angles with no unusual tire wear. This is due to the nature of vehicles manufactured in the last 15 or so years running negative camber numbers from the factory.
Heck, I've been running my 1978 Malibu at -0.5 camber and 1/16" toe OUT for the last 20 years as a daily driver. ZERO abnormal tire wear. Except for the back tires. They run out of tread pretty quick.
But that tread wear is EVEN across the tires.
HTHY
Last edited by abflyboy; Sep 17, 2012 at 12:34 AM. Reason: coolness
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Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,454
Likes: 412
From: Portland OR
I invite you to drive the studded tire rutted roads of Portland Oregon. (it rarely snows here, go figure)
Your car will try to change lanes all by itself. I guarantee.
Ron
Your car will try to change lanes all by itself. I guarantee.
Ron
Last edited by RonSSNova; Sep 17, 2012 at 01:14 AM.
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 128
Likes: 21
From: Meridian ID
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,239
Likes: 2
From: Naples FL
St. Jude Donor '12
Pfadt Racing alignment specs (these are the specs I use):
http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-c...-9.12.2011.pdf
Be sure to note that the negative number for toe values in the Pfadt specs is toe IN
My current alignment numbers for my DD 2000 Coupe are:
Front camber -0.7 left and right
Caster +7.4 left and +7.8 right
Front toe 0.0 left and right to allow for bushing flex slight toe out
Rear camber -0.4 left and right
Rear toe 0.1 left and right TOE IN
I have ZERO rut hunting problems with this set up and the car is stable all the time.
Most modern tires are designed to accept light negative camber angles with no unusual tire wear. This is due to the nature of vehicles manufactured in the last 15 or so years running negative camber numbers from the factory.
Heck, I've been running my 1978 Malibu at -0.5 camber and 1/16" toe OUT for the last 20 years as a daily driver. ZERO abnormal tire wear. Except for the back tires. They run out of tread pretty quick.
But that tread wear is EVEN across the tires.
HTHY
http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-c...-9.12.2011.pdf
Be sure to note that the negative number for toe values in the Pfadt specs is toe IN
My current alignment numbers for my DD 2000 Coupe are:
Front camber -0.7 left and right
Caster +7.4 left and +7.8 right
Front toe 0.0 left and right to allow for bushing flex slight toe out
Rear camber -0.4 left and right
Rear toe 0.1 left and right TOE IN
I have ZERO rut hunting problems with this set up and the car is stable all the time.
Most modern tires are designed to accept light negative camber angles with no unusual tire wear. This is due to the nature of vehicles manufactured in the last 15 or so years running negative camber numbers from the factory.
Heck, I've been running my 1978 Malibu at -0.5 camber and 1/16" toe OUT for the last 20 years as a daily driver. ZERO abnormal tire wear. Except for the back tires. They run out of tread pretty quick.
But that tread wear is EVEN across the tires.
HTHY
Pro
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 543
Likes: 1
Alignment
I run one degree negative camber on all four corners with non-runflat tires on my 2001. 22,000 miles. No adverse tire wear.
You want some toe-in on both ends of the car for stability.
Good handling on the street, autocrossing and on the track.
Hope this helps.
Roger T
You want some toe-in on both ends of the car for stability.
Good handling on the street, autocrossing and on the track.
Hope this helps.
Roger T