buy or build
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,011
Likes: 9
From: Dublin GA
buy or build
I am living on borrowed time with the hp I am making and my stock bottom end, and would like to upgrade, but just not sure which direction to go in.
I realize the easiest method would be to buy a forged shortblock, but just looking at other options.
I thought of buying a 383 stroker kit and rebuilding my 60,000mile LS1, but then with labor, Im not sure how much cheaper it would be.
Im guessing that it would be best to buy an entire rotating assembly instead of just buying the pistons and rod bolts (the only two things that bother me) and having everything balanced.
In this case, I want to do things right, but money IS a factor.
I realize the easiest method would be to buy a forged shortblock, but just looking at other options.
I thought of buying a 383 stroker kit and rebuilding my 60,000mile LS1, but then with labor, Im not sure how much cheaper it would be.
Im guessing that it would be best to buy an entire rotating assembly instead of just buying the pistons and rod bolts (the only two things that bother me) and having everything balanced.
In this case, I want to do things right, but money IS a factor.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 170
From: oregon
with some of the mail order shops cranking these out in assembly line process that's the way i would go $$ wise
having a real race shop like katech do all the machine work, balance and assembly may get you more hours of use but it will also cost a good deal more
the question i would be asking is what place has the best rep for exact machine work and a good + or - 1-2 gram balance
took me about 15 seconds to find this. LS2 bottom end, with forged flat tops and h beam rods, 4,000 bucks
http://www.schwankeshortblocks.com/s...?i=1503&c=1094
seems to be a lot of choices for similar stuff
having a real race shop like katech do all the machine work, balance and assembly may get you more hours of use but it will also cost a good deal more
the question i would be asking is what place has the best rep for exact machine work and a good + or - 1-2 gram balance
took me about 15 seconds to find this. LS2 bottom end, with forged flat tops and h beam rods, 4,000 bucks
http://www.schwankeshortblocks.com/s...?i=1503&c=1094
seems to be a lot of choices for similar stuff
Racer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 360
Likes: 6
From: Panama City, FL
Hard to bet an iron block for a budget... These guys have some great prices on built short blocks http://thompsonmotorsports.net/onlin...cPath=25_29_41
If you replace the LS1 *before* you do any damage to it, you can sell it to recoup some cost.
If you replace the LS1 *before* you do any damage to it, you can sell it to recoup some cost.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,011
Likes: 9
From: Dublin GA
Originally Posted by racebum;1584720051
took me about 15 seconds to find this. LS2 bottom end, with forged flat tops and h beam rods, 4,000 bucks
[url
took me about 15 seconds to find this. LS2 bottom end, with forged flat tops and h beam rods, 4,000 bucks
[url
http://www.schwankeshortblocks.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=1503&c=1094[/url]
seems to be a lot of choices for similar stuff
seems to be a lot of choices for similar stuff
I've seen some forged rotating assemblys for $1600, so it SEEMS like it would be a lot cheaper to build
Hard to bet an iron block for a budget...
The prices are good, but I sure do like the aluminum blocks
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 170
From: oregon
I know it cost to play, but by the time you add the "forced induction" pistons for $300, you're at $4300 and still have a LOT more to go.
I've seen some forged rotating assemblys for $1600, so it SEEMS like it would be a lot cheaper to build
Hard to bet an iron block for a budget...
The prices are good, but I sure do like the aluminum blocks
I've seen some forged rotating assemblys for $1600, so it SEEMS like it would be a lot cheaper to build
Hard to bet an iron block for a budget...
The prices are good, but I sure do like the aluminum blocks
ERL is famous with the turbo honda guys. they also apparently do LS engines as well. i just looked it up since the post above mentioned it
http://www.erlperformance.com/gm-ls-...e-short-blocks
you can get a 9:1 408ci bottom end for 3650 + whatever shipping is to send them your core.
these guys run a quality show too.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,011
Likes: 9
From: Dublin GA
by the time you add in machine work, balancing and either the tools to do assembly or paying for someone else to assemble it's probably not far off.
ERL is famous with the turbo honda guys. they also apparently do LS engines as well. i just looked it up since the post above mentioned it
http://www.erlperformance.com/gm-ls-...e-short-blocks
you can get a 9:1 408ci bottom end for 3650 + whatever shipping is to send them your core.
these guys run a quality show too.
ERL is famous with the turbo honda guys. they also apparently do LS engines as well. i just looked it up since the post above mentioned it
http://www.erlperformance.com/gm-ls-...e-short-blocks
you can get a 9:1 408ci bottom end for 3650 + whatever shipping is to send them your core.
these guys run a quality show too.
In regards to the machine work, the assemblies I have looked at say they are "balanced" which is the only reason I would buy the entire kit.
Should be no reason to bore my block, but all of the other machine work would add up.
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
From: Hendersonville Nc
I thought I could get out cheaper to buy a kit and take it to a machine shop. I was wrong and found out the hard way. Buy a complete short block, sell your current running short block and forget about it. By the time it was said and done I had more in rotating assembly, machine work and fixing issues than I could've paid for any of the short blocks listed above, not to mention the 3 times the engine came out because they screwed up the reluctor wheel.
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Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,011
Likes: 9
From: Dublin GA
I can check with these guys, but in summary, these guys will send me a short block ready to bolt in, and I just swap over my upper engine parts, etc, and go?
Will my LS1 heads fit the modified block?
AMP Racing
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,755
Likes: 589
From: Washington TWP NJ
2023 C5 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2017 C5 of Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '09-'10-'11-'12
You can get the bore size of your choice (within reason) for further mods down the road. Your current heads and top end will bolt on no issues.
Good luck with it.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 170
From: oregon
if the bore is out of round. forged pistons also will require a different clearance than cast. if you're a skilled engine builder you may save money but i would go to a place like ERL if it was my money. there are just too many places a mistake can be made doing a build. with those guys you know the balance will be right, you know the piston to wall clearance will be right, you know the hone grit will be correct for the ringset they use and you know the main and rod bearings will be set correctly and aligned properly. a mistake in any of those places will destroy the engine
Former Vendor
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
Likes: 17
From: Auburn/Dacula/Lawrenceville Georgia
Tim,
I responded to your texts earlier. I think refreshing your current block with a good set of pistons would be the "cheapest" way to go about it, but it's all in how much money you want to spend. There's a million ways to answer the "what can I do" question.
Yes ERL sells assembled short blocks, ready to receive a top end and installed in a car. I've done a few ERL engines with great results. Your heads will bolt up to any factory OEM LS1/2 block.
Call me if you want to talk further. If you're on a budget we can do something in-house for you that won't cost a fortune and still make the car reliable for another 60K.
I responded to your texts earlier. I think refreshing your current block with a good set of pistons would be the "cheapest" way to go about it, but it's all in how much money you want to spend. There's a million ways to answer the "what can I do" question.
I can check with these guys, but in summary, these guys will send me a short block ready to bolt in, and I just swap over my upper engine parts, etc, and go?
Will my LS1 heads fit the modified block?
Will my LS1 heads fit the modified block?
Call me if you want to talk further. If you're on a budget we can do something in-house for you that won't cost a fortune and still make the car reliable for another 60K.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,011
Likes: 9
From: Dublin GA
Since, per our conversation, I really need pistons, rods and rod bolts, I may need to just order a rotating assembly and see if my racing buddy can help me pull the engine out this winter (while he's "off") With time at a premium for me, this could be a long drawn out project
Will have to find a machine shop that knows what they are doing with and LSx but doesn't have gold plated machines they need to pay for
Shop will decide, but should only need block honing, pistons installed on rods and a couple other misc things. Heads have around 10,000 so there should be no need to touch them, and no need to balance a kit, so that should offset some of the cost of it
Lots of misc.
Will have to find a machine shop that knows what they are doing with and LSx but doesn't have gold plated machines they need to pay for
Shop will decide, but should only need block honing, pistons installed on rods and a couple other misc things. Heads have around 10,000 so there should be no need to touch them, and no need to balance a kit, so that should offset some of the cost of it
Lots of misc.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,011
Likes: 9
From: Dublin GA
if the bore is out of round. forged pistons also will require a different clearance than cast. if you're a skilled engine builder you may save money but i would go to a place like ERL if it was my money. there are just too many places a mistake can be made doing a build. with those guys you know the balance will be right, you know the piston to wall clearance will be right, you know the hone grit will be correct for the ringset they use and you know the main and rod bearings will be set correctly and aligned properly. a mistake in any of those places will destroy the engine
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 170
From: oregon
Point taken. I would, of course, defer completely to the shop, but although it's been a while since I built a forged engine, I actually thought they had, though the use of different metals, taken care of a lot of a lot of the tremendous changes in size on forged pistons from cold to operating temp.
which of course works if you have cylinders that don't need any touching up. if you remove any metal with a bore clean up you've just increased the PWC
also if the shop is doing work you have to calculate that all in. i've built two engines in my life and each time they cost more than they were suppose to
if i blow up my ls6 i would be calling ERL. i know what i'm getting and know what i'm paying
i didn't even realize they did LS engines until this thread. thought they were all honda. i've seen one of their honda engines run low 10s in a car for 2 seasons on the same bottom end drag racing every week and still going strong.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,060
Likes: 291
From: Pasco WA
I'll bet if you buy a quality rotating assy, you'll spend almost as much when you're said and done as a complete short block. Are you planning on FI in your future? Make sure and get your build right for that. Stock displacement, and heads don't matter as much with boost. If you stay NA, then eventually you'll want quality heads/intake, especially with a stroker. When I added a SC, I sold my FAST, and Meziere EWP, and went back to their stock components. Boost is easy, and fairly easy to increase, but I found more power than I can use with the stock pulleys. Big power requires stronger driveline components, too.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 170
From: oregon
I'll bet if you buy a quality rotating assy, you'll spend almost as much when you're said and done as a complete short block. Are you planning on FI in your future? Make sure and get your build right for that. Stock displacement, and heads don't matter as much with boost. If you stay NA, then eventually you'll want quality heads/intake, especially with a stroker. When I added a SC, I sold my FAST, and Meziere EWP, and went back to their stock components. Boost is easy, and fairly easy to increase, but I found more power than I can use with the stock pulleys. Big power requires stronger driveline components, too.
piston to wall will change even with a forged piston under boost vs NA
a quality outfit like ERL knows this and you can go over your goals on the phone
long story short both 2618 and 4032 alloy keep expanding the hotter they get. the more boost you have typically the higher the chamber temperature
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,011
Likes: 9
From: Dublin GA
I'll bet if you buy a quality rotating assy, you'll spend almost as much when you're said and done as a complete short block. Are you planning on FI in your future? Make sure and get your build right for that. Stock displacement, and heads don't matter as much with boost. If you stay NA, then eventually you'll want quality heads/intake, especially with a stroker. When I added a SC, I sold my FAST, and Meziere EWP, and went back to their stock components. Boost is easy, and fairly easy to increase, but I found more power than I can use with the stock pulleys. Big power requires stronger driveline components, too.
I'm at 702 rwhp running 11 lbs of boost on a SD, meth dependent tune. I've run it for a year or two, but just don't feel comfortable hammering hard on it, especially with the weak rod bolts.
The only future plans would be to proably go to a D1 from a P1, up the boost a couple of lbs and add some timing if it will take it. I will also be adding a little larger "FI" cam, and with the stronger rod bolts, moving my shift points up to around 6500-6600 instead of the 6100rpm I'm at now
I've got an RPM stage V trans and Z06 rear, so I should be able to handle a little more as long as I stay away from wide slicks
I just want to be able to play hard with no worries
