L33 is an aluminum block and weighs approx what the LS1 weight I would imagine.

You never want to buy a rebuild LS engine, ever. That is a big giant mistake... worst possible thing you can do to an engine in a reliability application

 

Good to know about rebuilt LS.

My mistake, figured it was iron. looks like only 3 grand for a long block on jegs. I'm not sure what the stock rating is, but what would it take to get to 350/400 hp?

 

Karl Kustoms lists new LS3 long blocks for $4999.00.

Not sure if it’s in stock, maybe give them a call and see?

https://www.karlkustoms.com/product/...hp-long-block/

 

Also I have seen new from GM LS3 intake with fuel injectors, fuel rails, and throttle body for about a grand, would guess you could use your LS1 coil packs, buy a new water pump, get Lingenfelter converter box, etc, tune.

I would think your T56 would handle the power of the LS3.

 

According to Summit Racing a LS3 crate can ship by 12/27

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19419862

 

I did put in this engine in my 02 C5 when the LS1 said good by , moved over all parts from LS1 waterpump servo steering generator AC oil pan , things to get was LS3 intake injectors and fuelrail.
GM had a sale on it for 4300 usd , i had it dynod and i got 442 hp / 554 NM at 6200 rpm what that is to the wheels i do not know maybe in the close to +400 rwhp depending on what dyno.

 

Crate engines can be risky.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#post19473302
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...ml#post5928055
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...y-control.html

LS3 Crate Engine with no oil pressure
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#post12241796


So I blew my brand new LS3 crate engine
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#post19846717



Annnd!
This is my favorite and shows EXACTLY what I am afraid of and referring to when I Say that I do not trust crate or rebuilt engines...
BEHOLD
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1594758891

This man takes apart a brand new crate engine, never run, and inspection reveals MYRIAD issues which would have caused early expiration. Maybe the motor would go 10k or 30k miles but it would NEVER reach 100k or 200k like that. It would live long enough to be outside of warranty though.

The reason is because: Nobody will take the time and care that you would when assembling the engine. There is no standard operating procedure and carefully planned machine work route the way a factory OEM engine for say, a TRUCK engine would have. So there are ALWAYS going to be steps missed and microscopic inclusions, debris, burrs, cleaning issues, etc.... because nobody will take the time to microscopically inspect every part during assembly or ensure that each part is being properly prepped before assembly.



Not saying it will happen to you but... why take the chance?




I don't like to take chances, at all. A low mileage used engine is always best from 2002-2008 is my select, with 80k to 150k miles.
You can easily take a 150k mile engine and bring it to 300k with great success, modern synthetic oil, replace the timing equipment, cam, springs, some gaskets, lifters, pushrods, and go. Just perform the work as a surgeon, cleanliness is king, no fingerprints or skin touching parts inside, no contamination, filter the air properly, run a full PCV system, etc.... The path to high mileage and reliability is to start with something that is statistically 98 to 99% likely to reach 300,000 miles (such as a 80k truck engine from 2002-2008 hint hint, hundreds of thousands of trucks sitting on 300k_ miles have proven their worth/relevance) and then focus on cleanliness above all else... use a paper air filter, pcv system, monitor crank case pressure, completely sealed oil system and proper filtration is key.


Okay so now power. Power comes from turbocharging. There is no superior method. Forget about engine mods, leave the engine alone. That is the big mistake people make when trying to make more power, they think nickles and dimes are the way to go. Forget that noise. Focus on adding 300 to 500whp to the engine, not just 50 or 100hp using typical BS mods. The turbocharger allows you to take 300hp engine and make 1000rwhp if you want. This way you can use all the power-robbing systems and filters, super air filtration, super PCV evacuation, tight thickwalled cast manifolds which cant breath worth a ****, factory heads with reliable valvetrain hardware, use all that essential reliability OEM-style equipment and use the turbo to bring power up wherever you want as high as you want. And /done you've achieved success with 99% confidence interval since the engine is from a truck with a track record for going 300k miles and more as long as its kept clean.

See my build thread in sig for example if application of this process.

 

L33’s aren’t exactly falling out of trees these days.

Any used engine is a crap shoot as you don’t know it’s history. If it was well maintained, all is good.
But many owners treat their trucks like crap.
So if a guy buys used, he would be wise to disassemble and have a look.

My L33 was $850 from LKQ in 2013.
I took it completely apart.
Pistons we’re very scuffed. Oil rings smudged badly. 4 rocker arms had worn pushrod cups.
The engine was very brown inside.
The bearings were ok however.

So you just never know.

 

Yes, it is true. This is why you must perform a complete inspection and remove the engine from a vehicle with a known history if possible.
I've inspected 1000+ engines imported from other countries so I am just good at it I guess.
You want to see original parts, including OEM pcv and air filter on the engine intact. Look for signs of maintenance, little things, bits of dirt or leaves trapped in places, areas where parts are wiped clean over the years, missing tape or clips on factory harness can be good or bad, see why they did that. Look for signs of pressure washing if the engine is out of the truck already, the tell-tale marks of missed inner recess where the high pressure water can't clean well. I avoid engines that are pressure washed.
You want to see OEM sealing 'glue' in places if there is any (depends on engine). OEM spark plugs with high mileage and still clean looking. Try to match parts to the era of the engine, any replaced OEM parts is a good sign, aftermarket is bad even if they look the same. A service record at a dealer and synthetic oil is ideal but good luck getting that, right? Look inside pcv hoses for oil, put your finger in the fresh air inlet tube, just tiny smidge/smudge of oil is ideal barely coating but not wetting your finger. It means the engine ran great and probably has great condition pistons/rings. If a piston is damaged or any blow-by issues you will find oil wetting the fresh air pcv tube.
The intake side equally important, check the pcv hose where the pcv valve is. Blow through the pcv valve, if its bad it will blow through easily and you may find oil behind it in the tube leading to the intake. This can be good or bad, depending on everything else. A bad PCV valve means the owner didn't change it as maintenance which means oil may have aspirated to the intake manifold, check the hose for oil quantity and quality. A light coating of clean oil is ideal, it may be wet if the pcv valve was bad though. Inspect for cracks in hoses. Ideally you would perform a pressure test on crankcase to ensure it was sealed up fully, which is the ideal situation to find the engine in, fully sealed because it minimizes interaction with environmental dirt/filth while driving and maximized pcv performance which keeps the internals clean.

The same things which keep an engine clean and healthy long term are what you are looking for in the engine before you buy it from it's previous service, clean oil in pcv related orifices, good pcv valve, clean crankcase appearance due to proper pcv system intact, high quality paper air filter, clean air supply tubes (somebody has to clean them once in a while or they acquire dust and dirt coatings over 50k miles~), sealed up crank case, OEM parts, look for OEM clips and tape on wires. I'm forgetting some stuff but generally a fully stock engine with clean parts and check inside each tube for evidence of maintenance or clean oil.

Then, Do not dissemble the bottom end of it. You can inspect bores from the top when the piston is down with heads off for cross hatch and unnatural wear. Change the lifters and upgrade pushrods is obvious if you can get OEM quality lifters for a performance engine. Rocker arms can get a non-needle bearing trunion I believe, it sounds like a good idea but I am still using the needle versions because I am curious if they will ever fail if I just leave them alone(over 200k on mine, I Put 40k on them myself). Inspect the engine for signs of mal-maintenance as sludge/buildup or burning. Smell the engine for signs of burnt oil will reveal previous abuse. Use a factory head, do not port or modify the head beyond changing springs and guides and cleaning it up. Do not deck the head or block. Chase all threads. Use acetone (per FSM) On the deck and blow out the bolt holes with air before assy. Make sure you get the type of engine which uses metal gaskets on the head gasket and exhaust side.

Tune settings,
Keep RPM limited for daily drivers as much as possible, my neutral rev setting is 3300rpm so you can smash the @#(*$ out of the limiter at 3300 and nothing bad can happen. My shift points are all before or near 6000rpm even though the engine will tolerate 7k easily, use the lower RPM limit for best longevity is one of the many keys to success. Monitor oil pressure full time using an ECU input or Arduino as needed, as well as oil temperature which should be held 200-220*F for longevity. Keep coolant the same temp as the engine oil 200-220*F is ideal, and never cooler than 195*F as it will excessive wear to the cylinder. Monitor and record Crankcase pressure the same way you measure oil pressure and intake manifold pressure, i.e. using a 2-bar map sensor is fine with ECU input or arduino. The crankcase pressure is the key to monitoring engine health when everything else is in line, it is your final say of what the engine is doing or 'thinking'. A slight rise in pressure anytime over atmospheric inside crankcase means the pcv system is unable to keep up with demand and should be modified to suite. Always idle and cruise the engine with 14.8 to 15.2:1 air fuel ratios to keep the plugs clean and achieve max economy and minimize carbon deposits. WOT for N/A engines is generally 12.2 to 12.8 ranges on gasoline and WOT for turbo engines is generally 11.2 to 11.8 on gasoline, those are general starting points for varying amount of boost from 10-20psi ranges. If you need more specific settings for other fuels or boost levels pls ask. Timing should be kept to a minimum for daily drivers, you can find best minimum using a dyno or EGT gauge or both. It is difficult to guess without one or the other. I find for OEM compression LM7 the timing near 19* BTDC Is sufficient for up to 4psi of boost (approx 330rwhp) on 87 octane fuel with engines over 150k miles. For 500-600rwhp the timing falls between 11 to 12* btdc for 93 octane gasoline as many do. Use the dyno to walk timing up and down a bit, couple degrees and find the least amount of timing that gives within 3-5% of max power with a smooth line output, always use smoothing = 0 for maximum diagnostic reveal. A jagged spiky curve of torque is indicative of too much timing or other vibration related issues in the drivetrain. It can also be due to 'bunching up' of data points in an automatic transmission setup so pay close attention to that, reason and use common sense and modify the timing to verify the results.

 

Oh hey I just realized its THE RonSSNova! You're a damn celebrity to me, man. You are one of the reasons for the seasons.

This is your build thread, is this the only one? If you have more details and results posted please add!
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...e-runs-13.html

I'll never forget your L33 rebuild attempt and learning experience, it is essentially what all first and second time engine building attempts result with, issues as these
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads...um-ls.2401762/

It is difficult to rebuild an engine, and even more difficult to get the kind of longevity and mileage that the factory does from one. Not for novices seeking a mere 800rwhp or so, that is best left for factory internals as you have undoubtedly noticed by now.

Lets take another look at this though,
It sounds like fairly typical will find in these engines. Great bearings is typical for non-oil starved examples, and essentially why I recommend them even with high mileage. Mine for example have 200,000 miles and I know that the bearings inside must still look near-mint. This is due in part to the stiff girdle and pan support that the modern truck engine is designed with, the engineers have developed a computer-aided strategy to find flaws such as resonance at specific RPM which may deflect rotating parts related to the crankshaft or cause unwanted, unexpected stress/strain to develop, and compensated for those forces in an almost... invisible way (you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at it) and any changes we make, even those which are traditionally 'well accepted' such as studs or stronger crankshaft materials may impact those inherent designs, rendering them less effective or negate them completely which may lend to more bearing or block/crank issues than is seen in a factory engine using factory parts.

Moving on! The brown color you note is generally tied to oil change interval, oil cleanliness, oil quality (synthetic tends to do better, always), and also there is some phenomenon with the location of the brown colors... for example there are specific spots within (every) engine that oil tends to collect and stagnate over time, such as the tops of certain bolts over the head in the sr20det/2jzgte engines and the recess of heads where oil drains back but also tends to sit when the engine is off, not completely drained. These areas will gradually darken because of low flow through those regions. There are also some areas such as under the pistons where blow-by contaminated oil/fluids constantly contact areas of the block which over time darkens them with carbon conglomerates from the gasoline carbon chains (any black colours is generally a heavier and modified carbon chain... which can form sticky tar-like or hard diamond-like substances as carbon does both and everything in between).

Next, Oil rings coated or collected with carbon is generally attributed to poor oil change intervals or burning conventional (non synthetic) oil. It is likely that if you left the pistons alone and ran the engine with E85/boost and synthetic oil the carbon clogs would gradually be ripped apart and the piston would be clean again. Especially with E85 or even E50 going through the engine, alcohol tends to solvent and clean everything up over time. So that was also a non issue.

so far, no issues.

Now, the rocker arm issue with the worn cup... I am not sure about that. How bad it was, how important, etc... I would love to see that issue. The only thing I Can think of there is maybe the oil orifices were clogged or reduced flow due to poor oil quality (Old oil) or perhaps the owner used too-thick of engine oil (something 40W when it wanted 5W-30 for example) which slows down the rate of oil reaching those upper valve train parts after a cold start (which is why you want the low first number 5W generally).

So far that is an issue you may have discovered in the L33 (the only one so far), however!! The rocker arms are VERY easy to remove, and easy to diagnose and inspect! This is not something that involves the bottom end or rotating assembly... so you would ALWAYS catch this issue on ANY used engine, easily by simply removing the rocker arms and inspection! Thus, it is of no concern or worry to those buying an USED engine.

Last, you found the piston skirts scuff marks. This is an interesting aspect of used engines for many reasons. For starters, let me say that it seems many of the forged pistons with wide piston/wall clearances cause more scuffing within 10,000 miles than a stock piston would suffer in 200,000 miles, when an engine is cold started frequently. Those cold starts seem to do this kind of wear markings. For stock engines with very tight piston/wall clearances (and low thermal expansion pistons) this kind of wear is generally reduced to the point the engine can go 300k or 400k miles despite it. That said, I am curious what you did to 'fix' the issue? Were the scuff marks bad enough that you thought to replace the pistons? Because in mind you simply reinstalled those pistons and went on your merry way. I am curious about that. If the marks are visible but do not catch a fingernail I would definitely put them back in the motor without a second thought. The real thing I worry about is the cylinder walls, chips, chunks missing, scratches, etc... but you can see all of that without dissembling the engine internals.

My reason to point all this out is... it sounds like you dissembled a perfectly good engine that would have worked well for you even if you had never taken it apart. Especially after replacing the couple of rocker arms and cleaning it out with E85 style fuels. Thoughts, my friend?

 

My thoughts...

L33 is a completely stupid choice for a NA application that will never see boost. Better off with an iron block 6 liter if you want to save money.

ANY and EVERY completely assembled engine has risks. Even one you can hear running or see a video of it running before it was pulled has no guarantee it's actually good. All you can do is make an informed pick and hope it is good. GM crates do tend to be decent overall.

$4k for a used LS1 is ridiculous, I really should sell the one I have sitting in the corner of my garage.

 

My thoughts on your thoughts....
1. I would never "LS" a car without a turbocharger. 3L OEM turbo engines will outperform it. Hell, 2 Liter engines will outperform it. I watched a guy tune a 500rwhp , 122 cubic inch engine last month with all factory internals on the dyno right after I tuned my friends 156 cubic inch 500hp setup. Why would anybody use 5 or 6 Liters to make 2L power and suffer the loss of economy and efficiency of having so much displacement?
THAT is crazy to me.

2. Aren't the 6L Iron blocks More expensive than L33 engines? And they weight 125lbs extra!! No way I would use an IRON engine in a naturally aspirated application if I was going to do one... for some reason. Crazy talk!

Well you say 'risks' as if they are equal risk, but they are NOT equal risk.
In other words, if I buy a truck in 2002-2008 and drive it for 80,000 miles and maintain it properly. Then I hand you the keys one day and say "okay, it has 80k on it and its been maintained perfectly by me since day one." What do you think the statistical likelyhood that truck can reach 250,000 miles or 350,000 miles from that point?

Its over 99.899999%!!!!!

We get this number by performing a statistical analysis of all trucks produced between that time frame, their care, mileage, usage, etc... and realize that Chevrolet produced MILLIONS of trucks and only a very small percentage of them, less than 0.1% Of them have any kind of internal engine issues unrelated to maintenance!

So the actual "RISK" factor of those used engines is SOLELY Based on the use, maintenance, care of the engine, and has NOTHING to do with its internal parts or assembly.

Whereas,
if We BUILD an engine fresh, whether crate or rebuild OEM or aftermarket doesn't matter. Each internal part, machine work, assembly, tightening procedure, cleanliness, human error, part supply/source, handling, even the air quality of the facility in which it is assembled and how long it lays open to the air.... ALL Of that is additional risk. Extra risk and only ONE of those things needs to be mis-treated to trash a fresh engine. As I have shown above with several examples regarding machine work where humans simply missed something during assembly or cleaning or whatever. And there are THOUSANDS Of items to 'miss' when building an engine which compounds the risk.

To whit, what are the statistical odds of a rebuilt engine can reach 80,000 miles? It is less than 5%. Furthermore I have never seen a rebuilt engine with aftermarket internal reach 100,000 miles over the last 20 years.

I'll take 99.89% Chance of success over 95% chance of failure, sorry to burst your bubble guys

 

Which doesn't address what the OP wants, at all, even a little bit

Running NA and matching mod for mod, a 6L will outperform a 5.3L every day. No replacement for displacement. Any and every change you can do to your beloved L33 I can also apply to a 6L and beat the power you get. But then, from what you claim you can't break it open or else it'll shortly fail so it'll always be a NA dog.

How many used engines come with certified maintenance records and a guarantee from the owner that they were taken care of? LOL, good luck with that....

Performance engines typically don't last forever because they are pushed to their limits and driven hard.

Don't forget that 99% of the statistics on the internet are made up anyways.

 

I have a question regarding using the iron 6.0 block. I realize it's 100 lbs heavier, but is that going to make much of a difference for a regular street-driven car? A race car, sure...every pound counts...but for the street/cruiser? Perhaps it won't handle quite as well, but the ease of using a Gen III block/motor with the 24x reluctor and cam sensor and knock sensors (basically drop in with existing ECM and wiring) seems to be a worthy trade off, no? Some dealers still stock new Gen III blocks and some even have Chevrolet Performance long blocks available.

I already have a set of TSP Stage 2.5 LS6 heads, cam/lifters and Fast 92 that I was going to put on my LS1, but I've been considering just building a 6.0 block with a 4" stroker kit and letting it rip. I'd love to have the aluminum block but they're not around anymore so next best option is iron.

Thoughts?

 

The weight really doesn't make that much difference.

I'm not convinced stroking one is a good idea. The pistons come quite far out of the bores when stroked.

 

There are pistons that accommodate strokers. I’ve run a bunch of stroked engines, never had a piston come out of the bore.

 

Yes, it seems the newer stuff is shorter to avoid the skirt coming out of the bore, but that also tends to lead to more wear too. Either way, good pistons should be OK at 4" stroke NA but be aware that it'll likely wear more.

 

......

 

....Again!!

 

Ack
Somehow you are consistently incorrect in every sentence

Wrong as he is clearly concerned about the weight of Iron Block. And yes it makes one hell of a difference. Dear people considering Iron vs Aluminum: do research. There have been MANY complaints from people who didn't realize how much 125lbs is on the front of a vehicle. Also 100lbs is worth something like 10 horsepower so, displacement per displacement there is some transfer between the two engines in terms of non-rotating mass that is accountable for in the power equation which power literally means and is defined by how far you can move some mass in how much time.

Wrong again as you fail to specify "outperform"- are we talking rally, road racing? because the Aluminum engine will outperform the IRON engine, it isn't always about torque or power.
The 5.3L (and other smaller displacements) may also have an advantage in terms of RPM capability that allows it to produce more power than the 6L as well, as max piston velocity and stroke length among other factors are related to an engine's balance, frequency, susceptibility to failure when high RPM Is involved.

sigh, wrong again

I submit that there is a replacement for displacement as A factory154 cubic inch engine from 1995 can reliably 700rwhp which is more than you'll ever see from a reliable 6L daily driver setup N/A. It will also 28 to 30 miles per gallon and six speed transmission just like the 6L. Both Nissan's and Toyota's 6-speed Getrag transmission is even more capable/sturdy than the 6L variety are routinely attached to, it was designed with that kind of power in mind and 8,000rpm shifts which by the way both Nissan's 2.6L and Toyota's 3L are factory capable of 8,000rpm as they include solid over head valvetrain hardware.

The replacement is the turbocharger. It allows you to make any power from any engine. Thus we should choose the engine based on it's availability, cost, ease of installation/maintenance, and not how much displacement it has.
For example my favorite engine is Toyota 2jz-gte but they cost too much. I'd rather use the free LM7 that are readily available and people will give you free if you look hard enough. Both engines weigh approx the same and support the same power but one is just way more expensive to replace.

Unless you turbocharge both of them in which case they both make the exact same power- almost. The 5.3L will make more power due to reduced friction, reduced momentum loss, and reduced rotating mass and let's not forget the reduced physical mass of the engine which also assists power to move the vehicle.


It isn't "my" philosophy. It is the general, professional route. For example
https://www.theturboforums.com/threa.../#post-2049195
This is just one of thousands of helpful posts from experienced turbocharging professional car builders strewn across the internet.
Google "sloppy mechanics" and count how many cars dyno over 600rwhp using the factory engines.

Sorry but you are so blind it hurts, please do research. I am not trying to be mean Just you have no idea what is happening in the world.


You must INSPECT them. It is a mystery that you must become a detective and unravel how an engine was treated. I've inspected a THOUSAND engines from over seas and I learned how to spot the good ones. I posted what to look for. Just because you have trouble using your eyes and nose and senses to detect a good engine doesn't mean everybody is that way. Worst case scenario is you buy a few cheap engines and pick the best one sell the parts out from the rest. Still cheaper than building an engine!! And then having it fail two three times before you realize.... its out of your depth!


Wrong again! I think you are just used to Naturally aspirated engines, V8 from chevrolet tend to fall apart because when they are NA and in a car like corvette people redline the living @#(*# out of them and that is what destroys and NA engine in short order.
In comparison, Toyota Supra and Nissan Skyline are "driven hard" as you so put it, redline to near 8,000 rpm and those engines are still around after 250,000 miles and twenty years!
The fact is that turbocharging preserves the bottom end, it protects the rod cap and rod bearing, it enabled very high RPM without the consequences of rod cap and rod bolt failure. Those turbo engines just like V8 engines can sustain 250,000 miles with very little if any wear to their bearing systems thanks to the exhaust gas pressure which protects the rod bearing on the exhaust stroke.

Your post was 100% inaccurate