Got new tires, so I need to get an alignment done. Called a few different places and got a wide range of prices. Anybody have any recomendations. Dealer wants $120. Discount tire wants $55. Dealer says he has "state of the art" equipment for the vette, other tire places claim they alignment will
be done to specs I want. Give me some input on this.... :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

Go to the southeast or northeast section and ask for some recommendations in your area. :)

 

My dealership and their "state of the art equipment" ruined an entire set of tires and had to replace them - TWICE! The problem with their "SOTA" setup is that it is all computer controlled and the only people who know if it's out of calibration and/or how to calibrate it are the reps from the machine's supplier - NOT the dealership.

I now go to a more "trusted" shop that's been doing alignments in Charlotte for over 30 years. They align manually and measure everything...twice. I have had no problems since - and they are cheaper.

This is not to say all dealerships suffer from this problem or that you shouldn't take your car to them, just that if their equipment is out of spec, they don't seem to know it, so I just want you to be aware of such.

 

Most shops have computer controlled equipment. But like everything else it all depends on the operator. The best one may be at the dealer or may not be. Your dealer does seem to be somewhat high priced. In my area they are usually competitive with the local shops.
Bill

 

Seeing that there isn't much chance on you bringing your car to me, I figure it is safe to tell you how much I charge.

On a C5 I would only consider a 4 wheel alignment.
2 wheel alignment $70
4 wheel alignment $120
4 wheel alignment w/ corner weight adjustments $170

Here is something else to consider, the factory specs are very broad so that most of the cars rolling off the assembly line will meet the specs. One of the reasons why some shops are so cheap on alignments is that if each corner is within the factory spec, they don't even bother adjusting. We have a baseline for several driving types, one set up for street driving, another one for Autocrossers, another one for Road racers and a fourth one for Drag racers. Then for my regular customers, we fine tune their setup to suit there needs. I hope this helps.

 

I don't pay quite as much as C5stein, but a good shop will bring into agreement between wheels, not just within specs like he stated. I had my C4 lined up and it took two hours and cost me over $100. The reason, he added shims and the alignment between wheels was pretty much perfect. He took the time to do it the way I would. I also had a dealer line up my Suburban and told me it pulled and they lined it up a second time. Car pulled to the right. I took it to this same shop and found the same thing, it needed to be shimmed. Now I can take my hand off the wheel and it tracks straight whereas with the dealer alignment I would have been picking bushes out of the grill.

I think you you ask each exactly what they are going to do and what number they are going to produce within what tolerance. Don't base the decision on cost, as the extra $50 spent may mean a world of difference in drivability and the life of your tires, which aren't cheap either.

 

:iagree:
Vettenuts is on the mark. A good shop will make both side agree (to a point, some trucks like a little less negative camber on the left due to road crown) and it is worth a little extra when you consider the cost of a new set of tires. I have seen some tires on C5s with the inside shoulders worn out and when we checked the alignment specs, they were within the factory specs. My recomendation is that if you drive moderately, go easy on the negative camber (-0.25 to -0.50), Get the caster up to at least 6.5 degrees, and set the front toe to in 1/8" front and zero in the rear. Of course if you are more aggressive in the corners, more negative camber will make the tires wear more evenly and work a bit better.

 

Thanks for all the info... Price wasn't my concern, I just want a quality job done. Going tuesday to the dealership for the alignment, talked locally with a few, and got some good recomendations on this shop. Seems they sell alot
of C 5's, and have a tech that specializes in working on them. My last set of tires wore the inner front tread pretty bad. I'm interested in what the before specs are. Any recomendations on specs I should request???? Never at the track, and all mainly easy hwy miles.

 

I'd like to ask your advice. How do these specs sound on a 2001 Z06?

left front: (-.3) degrees right front: (-.3) degrees Camber
(6.2) degrees (6.5) degrees Caster
(-.02) degrees (-.01) degrees Toe
(8.9) degrees (9.0) degrees SAI
(8.6) degrees (8.7) degrees Incld Angle

Front Cross camber: (.0) degrees
Front Cross caster: (-.4) degrees
Total Toe: (-.02) degrees


REAR left: (-.2) degrees REAR right: (-.2) degrees Camber
(.02) degrees (.01) Toe

Rear Total Toe (.03) degrees
Thrust Angle (.01) degrees


Thank you in advance for your input.

 

Ruking1,

You didn't mention how you drive or if you are looking to do any track driving so my uninformed middle of the road answer is that these alignment settings for non runflats are fine. Tell me how you plan on driving the car and I can give you a better answer as to if this is a good setting for you.

For most people this is a very good street setup.

What I do for my regular customers is that once I align their car, when they come back for other services, I monitor their tire wear. I keep them posted If I find that the settings that we put in are not right for their actual driving styles then I recomend a change.

You can do the same for yourself by monitoring your own tire wear, to arrive at that perfect setting for you. Once you know the settings that work for you, you can actually do your own alignments in your garage.

All you need is some string, two Jack stands, a tape measure and a 24" level.

Let me know how you drive, I'll give you a better answer.

 

Hey C5stein ... I wish Roseville was closer to San Diego I would have your shop do my Vette
:cheers:


[Modified by RHILL, 6:42 PM 2/2/2003]

 

Most of my Z06 driving has been freeway speed long distance touring. The most aggressive(lateral) driving has been done on Highway 1 from the Napa Valley to Carmel Valley. The tires are the F1 SC (oem) I now have 49k with app 4/32 of wear remaining. I have been back and forth to Vancouver BC. (longest at a sitting trip 10 hrs (965 miles)I pop in and out of the Los Angeles area a good bit. I have been several times to Death Valley, Las Vegas and have gone through to the Monument Valley several times by way of I40E into and past the Grand Canyon.

Can you explain: "All you need is some string, two Jack stands, a tape measure and a 24" level".

Thanks again! This Z06 is an absolute joy to drive! Right now with these settings it seems to track pretty well. While I would not recommend doing this I can let my hands off the wheel for quite a distance and there are only minor tracking errors.




[Modified by ruking1, 9:20 PM 2/2/2003]

 

Thanks for the good word. Keep an eye out as I'll be attempting to become a supporting vender on this forum this month. I finally have enough unique products that I think it will work for me and for forum members. I don't intend to poach for work on the forum, just share my experience and maybe earn some goodwill.

Mark

 

Mark,
Can you give me a good baseline for normal street driving with run flats...
GOOD LUCK on becoming a supporting member on the forum. Lot's of GREAT people on this site... :cheers:

 

ruking1,
Okay based on that, I believe that you have a proper setting. Now you said that you got almost 50,000 miles out of your F1 SCs and still have 4/32 left. That is awesome :thumbs:
Now take a close look at the tires, check the tread depth across the face of the tire (outside shoulder, middle, inside shoulder) If the tread depth is pretty close (within 1/32) then you my friend are at your perfect alignment. So document that setting and if anyone ever checks your alignment, give him these Camber, caster & toe settings as the ultimate target. SAI isn't adjustable, it is built into the suspension (it is used to determine if something is bent or broken). Thrust angle ideally should be zero, but yous is so close, I would leave it alone if the car tracks well (steering wheel straight).

I actually ment 4 jack stands, two long pieces of string, one tape measure (two is better) and a 2' level.

This is how I learned to align cars back in 1976 when my friends & I were getting into racing. Being in High School, we were close to broke all the time (remember when minimum wage was $2/hr) working in a gas station. I was constantly changing so many things on the suspension (for autoX) that I had to constantly realign my car. The mechanic I worked for showed me that a wheel alignment was nothing more than getting all of the wheels pointing straight ahead after you finish "screwing everything up" :lol:

For caster we would take the wheels off and measure the angle from the top ball joint to the bottom with suspension blocked up to ride height. In geometry we figured out what the angle was, but the formula eludes me now. That is the hardest part.

For toe he showed me how to create two parallel lines with strings and jack stands that also paralleled the centerline of the vehicle (put the strings very close to the tire side walls). Then center the steering wheel and lock it in place (tie a rope from the brake pedal to the bottom of the steering wheel). Once you create these parallel lines, you set your toe by measuring from the string to the rim. If the leading edge of the rim was closer to the string than the trailing edge, then you have toe out. And visa versa. Do this at all four corners, you pretty much have it. Thrust angle is the difference between the total toe direction the rear wheels point and the center line of the car. Using the string method and matching toe on each side for each axle will generally give you zero thrust angle, which is what you want, unless your racing circle tracks.

Set camber by first making sure that the floor were the car is parked is level.
Hold the level up to the face of the rim. If the level is plumb and you have the same measurement from the bottom of the rim to the level and the top of the rim to the level, then you have Zero Camber (which by the way, is within factory specs for a C5) I believe on a 18" rim that an 1/8" larger measurement on the top of the rim equals 0.25 degrees negative camber.

This is a pretty involved ordeal but it is really simple. It should take you about two to three hours to do in your garage, but it does work.

This system is very similar to the laser sighted alignment system that I currently use. Basically the lasers replace the strings and the wheel clamps hold the laser to the wheels. It is a pretty cool setup, that I can take to the track if needed.

Hell, in the eighties when I crewed on two SCCA teams and one IMSA GTP team, the only difference between what I just explained and what we did is that we had a $150 Camber/Caster gauge. For turn tables we used 2 aluminum sheets under each wheel with some grease in between. Simple, light and cheap.

If anyone is interested, I've got a pretty slick Camber/Caster/Toe tool that I would be happy to rent for $20 each (you can pay the shipping both ways and insurance). Two guys could probably do two to three cars on a saturday and have a good time at the same time. :cheers: If you know what I mean ;)

Sorry for getting so wordy. Part German part Spanish, I'm an engineer that talks too much.

 

Donzi4me,
Starting with ruking1's settings are good street settings for run flats. Maybe back off the negitive camber to -0.1 to -0.2 front and zero to -0.1 in the rear. The side walls are so stiff that you have to run less camber or they will wear the inside shoulders out on the street.

Mark

Ps. I tried to be a vender about 7 months ago but the fact that most of the items that I carried were the same items being offered by other forum vendors, it was suggested that I pass until I had a more unique offering. I was a bit ticked off at the time, but I totally understand in retrospect that there is no reason to have ten guys all selling the same stuff. So I respect the forums decission to delay my entry.

 

C5stein,
You said what I have been saying here for a long time. When someone has their car aligned most do not know what they get in terms settings. What they get is something between specs. I hear some people say how their car is now on rails after a Z06 alignment, when they do not have a clue if the alignment was even changed. (There is no reality, only perception) And yes, many shops do not touch the alignments if the car is within specs.
I, too, have done many alignments in my garage using the methods you describe. It does work and is necessary when you have a race car.
I had a shop align my Z06 to the exact specs I wanted. It took 1/2 hour.
There are no shims involved with the C5, I don't think. All cams.
The hard part now about doing your own aligning is getting enough torque on the cam bolts. It is very hard while you are under the car.
As for Donzi, I would not go to the dealer. I would go where they specialize in alignments and tell them exactly what specs to use. The dealer cost seemed high to me. Alignment for mine (4 wheel) was $59.95.
Dave


[Modified by corvette dave, 11:42 PM 2/2/2003]

 

Thank you very much for the explanation!! You made a very good point about tire wear on the outer, middle and inner area of the tread. I had actually measured those three areas as you have correctly pointed out. So in effect the tire measurements I gave were in fact an average of 3 measurements per tire (or the average total of 12 measurements) In my case, the tread is almost evenly worn.

I did make the mistake when the car was first new, of not getting the delivering dealer to give me a reference alignment print out. ( for documentation and adjustment purposes) So what had happened was that the inner front tires wore down ever so slightly more than the middle and outer edge before I caught it and brought it in for adjustment.

So I would HIGHLY recommend that for folks taking delivery of a new Corvette to insist on an alignment print out. The real proof as you so correctly pointed out are two fold:

1. that the alignment be "within specifications"
2. give one the maximum wear pattern that he or she actually "NEEDS" or in fact actually does!!


So I definitely appreciate your feedback and hope that others on this forum find value on this subject.


Your half German and half Spanish engineer explanation of how to do an alignment at home hits the nail on the head! :hurray: As a boy, I used to help my Dad do alignments at home this way. I just assumed that the new alignment machinery gives you positive indication of the real numbers that one is aiming. Then again the basic nature of what you are trying to accomplished remains the same. Thank you.


[Modified by ruking1, 8:22 AM 2/3/2003]

 

Corvette Dave,
You are right, C5s use slotted mounting points with eccentric washers for adjustment on the lower control arms, not shims. C4s on the other hand use shims on the upper control arms.

Some guys that are using their C5 for Auto Cross and street driving will use shims to set their street adjustment and pop the shims out for more negative camber when they are going racing. Popping the shims out for more negitive also adds a bit of toe out, but for their purposes, it seems to work fine.

Thanks for your good words everybody.
:seeya
Mark
Motor Sprot Image & Performance

 

Ruking,
I have never heard of anyone getting the alignment sheet on a new car.
Please tell us how if that is possible. I would also like that information.
I had mine aligned after lowering it at about 500 miles. My right rear was so far out on the toe setting that it could not have been within specs from the factory. Even figuring in the change from lowering.
The next new vette I buy I am going to take it straight to an alignment shop and check it.
Remember though that tire wear is very dependent on your driving habits and tire pressure. Those are variables not controlled by GM. That is the problem with getting the car aligned within specs. I always align my cars at the dead center of the specs. That way I have room to move in each direction in case of those variables, including hitting a pothole, etc.
Dave