CorvetteThrashers

Well, I can't get to the old thread as its archived, but as promised, here are some processed EFI Live logs of before and after Vararam...

Well, I fitted my Vararam last Saturday along with an SLP big bore MAF thingy. No computer recalibration or anything and took the car for a spin with EFI live hooked up and collected some data with a view to seeing how many extra PSI I had in the intake. The power train on my car is bone stock except for the Vararam and the MAF - even the exhaust is stock.

Short answer - well, it looks to me like the Vararam is giving about 5+% increase at high loads, and is loosing some at low loads. As we are interested in high loads then this seems like a good thing to me.

Some observations:
With the Vararam and the SLP MAF the car knocked pretty easily as picked up by EFI live, but I couldn't really tell driving it. So, I bet there's a lot of vettes out there getting knock retard if someone has been messin' with the intake (although I'd assume that this is more to do with the MAF). This means I haven't got much Vararam WOT data for comparison.

Long version.
Exported the csv files from EFI live and dragged into Oracle. Broke the data out (oracle 'group by' clause) by throttle position, rpm and speed, averaged out the pressures and summed the occurrences. If anyone is interested here's a sample SQL statement so you can try yourself:

select
round(TP, -1) "Throttle pos",
round(RPMrpm, -3) "RPM",
round(VSS_km_h, -1) "Speed",
round(avg(mapkPa), 0) "Pressure",
count(*) "Number"
from default_log_stock
group by
round(RPMrpm, -3),
round(VSS_km_h, -1),
round(TP, -1)
order by 1 desc, 2 desc, 3 desc, 4;

As you can see, the data is sorted in descending order with high throttle poison at the top. The big numbers for stock are low to mid 90's whereas the big numbers for the vararam are about 100. I've got a 'LOT' more work to do to the car so am not going to bother fixing it yet so won't have any more WOT vararam readings, but the three that I have are 5 or 6% up on stock.

Well have fun analysing and don't go too bog eyed :)

Here's the stock result set:

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
100 6000 160 94 20
100 6000 150 94 3
100 6000 120 93 11
100 6000 110 94 4
100 6000 80 92 1
100 5000 150 94 29
100 5000 140 95 27
100 5000 130 95 25
100 5000 110 94 12
100 5000 100 95 13
100 5000 90 95 3
100 5000 80 92 1
100 5000 70 94 4
100 5000 60 95 1
100 4000 130 96 3
100 4000 120 96 11
100 4000 110 97 10
100 4000 100 97 5
100 4000 90 96 11
100 4000 80 97 13
100 4000 70 97 4

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
100 4000 60 96 4
100 4000 50 97 3
100 3000 120 97 5
100 3000 110 97 7
100 3000 100 97 3
100 3000 90 98 2
100 3000 70 97 4
100 3000 50 97 2
100 3000 40 98 3
90 5000 130 95 1
90 3000 110 97 1
90 3000 90 97 1
90 3000 70 97 1
80 6000 160 94 1
80 6000 120 95 1
80 5000 140 94 1
80 3000 110 97 3
80 3000 40 98 1
70 6000 170 91 1
70 6000 160 92 1
70 5000 130 90 2

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
70 4000 120 90 2
70 4000 100 96 6
70 3000 100 97 2
70 3000 90 95 1
70 3000 70 95 3
70 3000 40 97 1
60 6000 160 92 1
60 5000 120 76 1
60 4000 100 96 1
60 4000 90 93 8
60 4000 80 91 3
60 3000 100 97 1
60 3000 90 96 6
60 3000 70 97 7
60 2000 70 97 4
60 2000 30 96 2
50 6000 160 83 1
50 5000 130 74 1
50 5000 100 87 2
50 5000 90 87 1
50 4000 110 93 1

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
50 4000 80 89 8
50 4000 70 90 5
50 3000 120 92 1
50 3000 100 92 5
50 3000 90 92 7
50 3000 70 92 4
50 3000 60 91 7
50 2000 70 96 3
50 2000 60 95 1
50 2000 30 95 1
40 6000 80 87 1
40 5000 130 56 2
40 5000 120 50 1
40 5000 100 79 1
40 5000 80 53 1
40 4000 110 84 1
40 4000 80 79 2
40 4000 70 85 1
40 3000 100 84 5
40 3000 90 81 18
40 3000 80 84 26

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
40 3000 70 83 13
40 3000 60 82 10
40 2000 60 91 3
40 2000 30 92 2
40 1000 40 94 3
30 6000 160 61 1
30 5000 130 40 4
30 5000 120 18 2
30 5000 100 55 2
30 5000 80 28 1
30 4000 110 68 1
30 4000 80 61 3
30 4000 50 59 11
30 3000 120 69 1
30 3000 110 48 23
30 3000 100 54 143
30 3000 90 63 60
30 3000 80 57 61
30 3000 70 57 12
30 3000 60 63 53
30 3000 50 61 25

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
30 3000 40 65 23
30 3000 30 62 1
30 2000 90 62 126
30 2000 80 65 68
30 2000 70 74 14
30 2000 60 84 26
30 2000 50 78 46
30 2000 40 73 24
30 2000 30 66 38
30 2000 20 71 6
30 1000 40 94 9
30 1000 30 87 8
30 1000 20 75 3
20 6000 120 71 1
20 5000 130 11 1
20 5000 120 12 1
20 5000 80 11 1
20 4000 110 34 2
20 4000 80 21 3
20 4000 50 35 3
20 3000 120 29 116

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
20 3000 110 29 573
20 3000 100 37 484
20 3000 90 32 374
20 3000 80 30 251
20 3000 70 36 177
20 3000 60 37 38
20 3000 50 38 46
20 3000 40 46 3
20 2000 90 40 202
20 2000 80 43 331
20 2000 70 38 424
20 2000 60 40 168
20 2000 50 40 92
20 2000 40 51 82
20 2000 30 49 55
20 2000 20 55 37
20 2000 10 45 3
20 2000 0 44 5
20 1000 50 55 30
20 1000 40 55 14
20 1000 30 55 32

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
20 1000 20 59 68
20 1000 10 60 103
20 1000 0 55 64
10 6000 170 19 1
10 6000 160 15 8
10 6000 150 11 3
10 6000 120 15 6
10 6000 80 14 3
10 5000 160 11 6
10 5000 150 11 6
10 5000 140 11 10
10 5000 130 12 17
10 5000 120 11 3
10 5000 100 17 2
10 5000 80 11 2
10 4000 160 11 9
10 4000 150 11 7
10 4000 140 11 5
10 4000 130 11 5
10 4000 120 11 8
10 4000 110 12 14

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
10 4000 100 12 31
10 4000 90 15 6
10 4000 80 13 13
10 4000 50 16 6
10 3000 130 11 1
10 3000 120 13 18
10 3000 110 16 107
10 3000 100 14 218
10 3000 90 15 267
10 3000 80 14 191
10 3000 70 15 94
10 3000 60 16 58
10 3000 50 17 64
10 3000 40 24 2
10 2000 90 17 118
10 2000 80 20 211
10 2000 70 21 459
10 2000 60 21 213
10 2000 50 20 107
10 2000 40 20 43
10 2000 30 24 31

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
10 2000 20 28 4
10 2000 0 29 9
10 1000 70 22 13
10 1000 60 23 29
10 1000 50 27 140
10 1000 40 29 157
10 1000 30 31 143
10 1000 20 34 281
10 1000 10 37 264
10 1000 0 37 1901
10 0 10 50 8

200 rows selected.

Here's the Vararam result set:

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
100 5000 130 99 6
100 4000 130 101 2
100 4000 120 101 2
90 4000 120 99 1
80 4000 120 99 2
70 4000 120 98 2
70 4000 110 98 5
60 5000 130 95 1
60 5000 90 93 1
60 4000 120 94 6
60 4000 110 96 18
60 4000 100 96 1
60 4000 90 94 8
60 4000 80 94 5
50 5000 130 82 1
50 5000 90 82 1
50 5000 60 81 2
50 4000 130 81 2
50 4000 120 88 24
50 4000 110 91 24
50 4000 100 92 25

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
50 4000 90 85 8
50 4000 80 90 12
50 4000 70 90 2
50 4000 60 84 5
50 4000 50 88 3
50 3000 100 92 13
50 3000 90 93 1
50 3000 70 92 6
50 3000 60 93 3
50 3000 50 88 1
40 5000 130 75 3
40 5000 100 72 3
40 5000 90 80 2
40 5000 70 66 1
40 4000 120 76 13
40 4000 110 76 15
40 4000 100 82 14
40 4000 90 67 8
40 4000 80 77 27
40 4000 70 80 11
40 3000 120 83 19

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
40 3000 110 76 1
40 3000 100 82 11
40 3000 90 82 57
40 3000 80 85 27
40 3000 70 82 29
40 3000 60 83 38
40 3000 50 87 8
40 3000 40 89 6
40 2000 70 91 6
40 2000 50 86 5
40 2000 30 87 2
30 5000 130 50 7
30 5000 100 55 2
30 5000 70 46 1
30 4000 130 46 18
30 4000 120 55 11
30 4000 110 60 4
30 4000 100 59 27
30 4000 90 59 3
30 4000 80 66 1
30 4000 70 54 6

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
30 4000 50 59 12
30 3000 130 60 10
30 3000 120 50 133
30 3000 110 60 175
30 3000 100 58 171
30 3000 90 59 131
30 3000 80 65 109
30 3000 70 60 136
30 3000 60 64 77
30 3000 50 65 54
30 3000 40 60 56
30 3000 30 53 1
30 2000 90 58 98
30 2000 80 65 82
30 2000 70 64 128
30 2000 60 68 92
30 2000 50 69 116
30 2000 40 72 72
30 2000 30 68 59
30 2000 20 72 9
30 1000 40 76 12

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
30 1000 30 90 18
30 1000 20 86 8
20 5000 130 31 1
20 5000 100 31 1
20 4000 130 32 12
20 4000 120 21 10
20 4000 110 20 14
20 4000 100 25 69
20 4000 90 33 3
20 4000 70 30 4
20 4000 50 29 2
20 3000 130 22 6
20 3000 120 29 238
20 3000 110 32 883
20 3000 100 36 282
20 3000 90 32 478
20 3000 80 34 400
20 3000 70 37 435
20 3000 60 41 9
20 3000 50 34 16
20 3000 40 39 10

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
20 3000 30 41 2
20 2000 90 36 596
20 2000 80 43 853
20 2000 70 38 417
20 2000 60 43 248
20 2000 50 47 89
20 2000 40 48 110
20 2000 30 51 126
20 2000 20 59 51
20 2000 10 44 4
20 2000 0 42 2
20 1000 40 62 25
20 1000 30 48 34
20 1000 20 63 131
20 1000 10 60 151
20 1000 0 54 92
10 5000 130 15 5
10 5000 100 13 3
10 5000 90 24 1
10 5000 70 12 2
10 5000 60 23 1

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
10 4000 130 12 25
10 4000 120 12 52
10 4000 110 12 59
10 4000 100 13 35
10 4000 90 13 21
10 4000 70 16 4
10 4000 60 12 2
10 4000 50 15 6
10 3000 130 13 13
10 3000 120 14 121
10 3000 110 15 260
10 3000 100 15 362
10 3000 90 15 447
10 3000 80 15 321
10 3000 70 17 255
10 3000 60 21 14
10 3000 50 21 17
10 3000 40 21 18
10 3000 30 24 1
10 2000 90 16 317
10 2000 80 18 748

Throttle pos RPM Speed Pressure Number
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
10 2000 70 19 600
10 2000 60 19 434
10 2000 50 20 300
10 2000 40 20 103
10 2000 30 22 53
10 2000 20 30 10
10 1000 70 21 3
10 1000 60 23 64
10 1000 50 25 100
10 1000 40 28 228
10 1000 30 31 287
10 1000 20 33 270
10 1000 10 35 354
10 1000 0 35 2677

161 rows selected.

YELLOHHH

:sleep:

CorvetteThrashers

Wassup yellow Bro. Bit to tuff for ya to get the tiny brain round.

Do me a favour guys if your not interested just click the 'back' button. This topic has been discussed at length many many times and so far I've not seen anything conclusive. Here are some hard numbers for those interested.

Just another thought for Mr. smart **** Yellow. Its attitudes like yours that will prevent people from sharing technical information on this site and one day sunshine you may be in need of some of that.

tom p

:sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :iagree: ya got to be kiddin me!what does this tell me ?this might as well be in cobalt(101000101001001001010010)

Mike Mercury

so you changed two things at the same time. How do you attribute the increases to just the one?

and we still haven't.

I do appreciate your work and documentation. Not so sure what is surmises
though.

chuckster

Actually, if he put a bigger MAF then he actually decrease the pressure and velocity.. So...if he saw an increase WITH the bigger MAF then it is safe to assume he will show an even Bigger increase be going back to the stock MAF.
That is what is causing the K/R.

I am a firm believer that the Vararam gives the most benefit that is capable from an aftermarket intake. I don't care how slight the pressure gain..Any gain is better than none..

Toyride

Thank you for taking the time to post your data. All info has a use to somebody at sometime.

Good luck with your adventure and may it turn out better than you expect.
You are the one that has to be pleased with your efforts.

vettenuts

It sounds like using the Vararam may not be a simple plug and chug. Based on the above, it almost appears that an "edit" is required to take maximum advantage.

J-Rod

Thanks for the emipirical data. I have a couple of questions for you.

If at some point in the future you have some spare time and wish to do some more analysis, could you run the test with the stock MAF to eliminate changing two variables at once? Also if you have time, could you run the test on the stock airbox with the lid removed and the filter held in with wire ties.

My reason for asking is that another Z06 and I dyno'd on the same day a few cars apart. Our stock dyno numbers were within about 3HP of one another. With the zip tied lid on my car vs his car with the Vararam we made the same HP on the dyno (372). Just trying to see if you can see anything by observing the car's logs...

Thnaks for the data again...

vetetech

What was you Barometer Reading (Map with Key On Engine Off)??
I see the highest you ever hit without VaraRam on the MAp was one
or two 98 KPA. With you hit 101 That is a 3 Killopascals of positive
pressure increase (which is awesome) The question is did you exceed
atmospheric pressure (Barometric Pressure) at all
Vetetech

rbartick

I posted MAP and BARO readings recorded with my VR a while back. FWIW, your measurements are not very scientific and do not show very much at all. Your numbers are all scrambled up. You should be showing a complete run through the gears from 0 MPH up to about 120 MPH. Log RPM, Speed, TPS, MAF, MAP, and BARO. See if you get MAP to build at speed and see if it will hit the BARO reading.

For example the chart below shows average MAP readings taken during a 1/4 mile pass. The average MAP in 4th is much higher than the average MAP in the other gears.




When I had the stock box I never got MAP to hit BARO. With my VR MAP sometimes breaks BARO, causing the PCM to up the BARO reading.


[Modified by rbartick, 11:54 AM 4/1/2003]

CorvetteThrashers

Hi Guys,

Glad some of you found it useful, some answers starting at the bottom:

RBartick:
Good point, I should have logged barro. Sorry I missed your previous summary. It was in So Cal though and the days did seem pretty consistent although the logs were done on two separate days. The data isn't scrambled up its just organised in a manner you are probably not used to looking at as it averages several runs through the gears. This 'should' be more accurate as the data incorporates many runs (and many points across the spectrum). The data is infact reduced from over 10,000 and 16,000 samples/rows respectively. However, I only did a couple of high load runs with the MAF and Vararam as I was getting knock. Have another look if you are interested, the data is ordered by throttle position, RPM and speed in descending order. Throw it into Excel, I bet it makes more sense viewed side by side instead of one set above the other as in the post. Also, we are after all looking for effect at all loads, throttle positions and speeds, not just WOT if we are doing a full evaluation which unfortunately means we have to look at more data.

VeteTech:
Not sure if the car hit Barro as I wasn't logging that. The car did get some 101's though and Barro is 101,325 Pascals so looks like it got close. You can still have 'ram air' though (IMHO) without hitting barro as long as the pressure was higher than before. Actually, I think its doing a little better than 3 kPa. if you copare like with like, for example:
100% TP 4000 revs 130 km/h we get 101 for the Vararam and 96 for stock, so about 5kPa.

J-Rod:
Yeah, I know I did change two items so its not completely scientific. I'm afraid I won't be able to do anymore runs as is, as we are taking the engine out this week and the car won't be stock again for a long time. I do think though that there are other filters around that will give you the same as the Vararam on the dyno, where I do think the Vararam helps is in adding a few kPa 'boost' through forward motion.

VetteNuts:
Yeah, I was surprised at how easily it knocked. I thought the computer would have corrected with the fuel trims but no way. I'm betting its down to the MAF but it sure would be nice to have tried them individually. Problem is I have a job :-( (or maybe that's a :-) these days) so can't play indefinitely...

Chuckster:
Its really hard to tell what effect the MAF would have, but I agree, if the kPa goes up with the bigger MAF, then you'd think it would go up too with the stock MAF. One small point - don't know how this would effect MAP, but for fixed conditions (temp, bore, etc), if velocity goes up, pressure goes down - venturi effect.

tom p
Quote: ya got to be kiddin me!what does this tell me ?this might as well be in cobalt
Read the 'short answer' - you can read can't you?
:banghead:

YELLOHHH

First and foremost, my :sleep: joke was just that, a joke. A good natured rib at your post's length, not it's content. Lighten up.

Secondly, I have a VaraRam, and was interested in your information. I still am, but I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

Thirdly, I have shared more technical information on this site, for a longer period of time than you have.

Finally, have a great day. :seeya

Greg
:steering:

rbartick

I still think that your data is flawed. You need to look at the run for the entire RPM range, low RPM to high RPM, low gear to high gear. You also have to inspect the percentage of MAP to BARO, as well as MAF flow rates & cylinder fill rates. You cannot just select high points in the RPM scale because it does not give you a true indication about what is really going on.

Most of us appreciate your work, but your data is all scrambled up and it is not providing much information. No disrespect intended. For example this chart shows MAP with the stock box (no real increase):




This chart recorded with the VR shows MAP increasing with speed:


Click for a better view

I realize that I am getting a very, very small increase in MAP with the VR and it may not even be enough for a real power increase.

rbartick

The MAF replacement is throwing a monkey wrench in your experiment.

rbartick

Another VR 1/4 mile data sample (only showing points where TPS>98). My sampling rate may appear to be slow but its not. I captured many more fuel & timing related parameters in the log. I suppressed the additional parameters from the Query I am showing here to save space on this forum page:



Click image for a bigger view

An average for the gears



There is an obvious increase in MAP at speed. I never saw that with the stock box.

{Edit - Added TPS to chart}



[Modified by rbartick, 3:07 PM 4/1/2003]

CorvetteThrashers

RBartick:
The data's not flawed, there's just a lot of it. If we are analysing for speed, revs, throttle position and we choose five break points for each then we are looking at five cubed samples (5*5*5 = 125 data points.) You have been looking at 14 or so and consequently presenting a small part of the picture. Throttle position plays a HUGE role in MAP and you don't show TP. Anyway, I could go on, hard to image eh... anyway, if you want to chat off line I'd be glad to. Have you used databases before for analysis? It opens up a whole new perspective for you, but its not for everyone.

rbartick

As I said above TPS is at WOT (>98) for the data points I posted. I just added TPS to the chart above. I didn't show data points below WOT because once the TB starts to close the MAP drops. Looking at MAP when TPS is not WOT is a waste of time.

If you want to see how the VR affects pressure at speed you need to take the TPS out of the equation and show data for one TPS point. My data is meant to show a trend of what is going on with respect to the VR and speed as the engine revs at WOT through the RPM range, through the gears, and at various speeds. Your data is not showing that.


[Modified by rbartick, 3:08 PM 4/1/2003]

CorvetteThrashers

RBartick:
Ask yourself a couple of questions:
1) Why is chronological time important? If you really think about it, its not. And if you personnaly REALLY must have data in speed order, re-order the tables I posted in Excel.
2) From your data what is the MAP at 50-60% TP, 4000-5000 rpm and 80-90km\hr.?
Can't tell - right? Look at the tables I posted, we have 89kPa before Vararam and 90kPa after Vararam with 8 and 12 samples averaged respectively.

Anyway, I offered to help if you would like and that still stands.

rbartick

If you really want to see if the part if providing a pressure gain you need to run a before & after test under conditions that are as close as possible. Two 1/4 mile runs are a good comparison. Monitoring what happens as the car is running down the track makes it a lot easier to see what is going on.

Please don't take offense, but your data is a mess. :) Your data is grouped in a way which makes validating it almost impossible.

I surely can tell you what kind of MAP I see at 50% TPS but the info is irrelevant. I am not concerned with manifold pressure at part throttle. Your before & after testing has way too many variables and TPS is one of them. The key to experimentation is a controlled test environment.

I am not sure what you think I need help with? :confused: I am not interesting in getting into a long winded debate on this so this will be my last post on the subject.


[Modified by rbartick, 4:09 PM 4/1/2003]