I agree with most of your statements for 2005. I think in the future SMG will become cheaper and cheaper and be the preferred route.

And hey i play PGR2 on XBOX live all the time. I am looking forward to Forza on Tuesday

It's all about what you like. I still maintain that when SMG gets to the point that is refined and cost efficient it will be what the latest and greatest generation wants. It also will offer more performance. I'd love to take my vette through the twisties of the mountains here in Georgia and be able to keep two hands on the wheel and downshift with ease.

My only experience was with a 360 and it was an altering experience you talk about fun, that was it.

 

Forza does look to be a lot of fun, I keep forgetting it's out soon . Plus I believe it'll have a C6 in it yes? The one down-fall of GT4 in my opinion, but being able to drive the Nurburgring makes up for it. That and on-line support will be a big plus.

 

Yes, Bwright, I believe and have believed it for some time. The paddle pictures have nothing to do with it.

Sure enough, you and Rick Conti have been saying it for some time, and you were right: the A6 is coming in MY06. There was little doubt left after Fichtner's premature announcement, later "retracted" at GM's request.

We still don't know WHEN in MY06 we'll get the A6. That, at least for me, is the remaining interesting question.

Conti has written (other forum) that he will post the MY06 order guide on May 2. (It was supposed to be released earlier, April 11, I believe, but was not.) I'm sceptical about that. I'm thinking that on May 2 we'll hear about another "delay." With the delayed MY06 production (September), it doesn't make sense to me that GM would let it be known so early that the A6 is coming, given the obvious impact on MY05 sales. We'll see on Monday. I hope I'm wrong. But whenever the initial order guide is finally released, if the A6 is there, then we'll know that it will be available in September, and not mid-year.

As for the paddles, much ado about nothing.

 

The pics are here:

http://forums.gminsidenews.com/showt...threadid=14078

This is what I will be purchasing in 2007.

 

Actually he's right and you would probably be shocked at how much empirical evidence there is to support him.

 

Then shock me with the evidence. Links? Data? The cars that the manufacturers are making and putting on the market give the opposite impression at the moment.

 

Much like the carburetor, don’t be so sure. According to ZF, the world’s largest independent maker of transmissions, current penetration of automatics in North America is +90%. ZF’s most recent forecast indicates that it will be 94% in 2012. According to PWC Autofacts, which has tracked manual transmission production since 1990, the only vehicle segments in which stick shifts will claim a sizable portion of the model mix will be sports cars, economy cars and budget pickups. Even there the stick shift’s fingertip hold on the cliff is slipping badly. Lamborghini’s e-gear is currently 50% of their North American product offering. For the Corvette, the large volume seller, the split is now 65/35 auto/manual. For Ferrari, which offers an automated F1 style shifter the split is an even starker 80/20. In the upper reaches of professional sports (F1 and Le Mans) traditional manual shifters are non-starters due to the simply crushing advantage offered by inhumanly fast automated shifters.

Brian Maxim, consultant with PWC AutoFacts in West Chester, Pa., said in an interview with Automotive News that one of the reasons for the decisiveness of ths shift is simply that automatics are getting better. But manuals are about as good as they'll get. To underscore the point the next revolution in automated shifting, Audi’s DSG, is likely to be a popular option for Porsche’s new 997 series and even Corvette Chief Engineer Dave Hill is reputed to be quite impressed by the technology.

In Europe, where the ratio of manuals to automatics is virtually reversed an interesting trend has developed. In the last five years automatics suddenly moved forward 11% and, in 2002, were on pace to reach 15% of all models. At their present rate of growth automatics well on track to take more than half of all cars sold in Europe faster than you can imagine.

In an Automotive News interview, Gordon Willis, Ford Motor Co.'s chief engineer for transmissions, notes that countries get terrible traffic problems as they develop. "The demand for automatics grows much faster than the road structure can," he said. "Look at Japan: You can hardly sell a manual transmission there because their traffic is so horrendous."

Although it still represents a significant base of potential customers, Toyota research shows that interest in stick shifts among younger buyers is declining sharply. For smaller manufacturers the situation is even clearer. Michael Krebs, director of product planning for Mitsubishi Motor Sales of America Inc. said in an interview with Automotive News, "Being a small manufacturer, we don't have the resources to carry poor sellers." Fortunately for Mitsubishi, the Evo remains the one current bright spot in their otherwise desperate day-to-day existence.

True enough. It’s just that there are two very good games on which the DSG/F1 type shifter will play well, the Evo and the STi. A generation that grew up on wildly popular driving video games will not need much prodding to adopt the technology of their play and/or fantasies.

Actually, the automakers are building automatics to the point that "there's not a great price differential with manuals. If you're doing high volumes of automatics vs. low volumes of manuals, it can be even or cheaper," said Lee Davis, general manager of Transmission Technologies Corp. Toyota boss Jim Press, a car-guy at heart, knows that sales volume for manual transmissions doesn't match their cost (credit, Automotive News).

Links as requested:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosins...a01-271661.htm

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=52787

They make for some pretty sobering reading. If they do not work (one of the services requires a subscription and so may not readily appear) let me know and I will PM you the article in its entirety. Don’t want to post copyrighted material.

In any event - I know how to drive both transmissions and, like you, I don’t care to bash one type of transmission over the other. I well understand that options make the line hum. But I am also a realist and, much like watching the carburetor vs. fuel injector battle of old, I know when the game is coming to and end.

 

Thanks for the info and the links, yes that is sombering . Although for a few counterpoints:

- There's talk in F1 circles of going back to a manual transmission. While it's been said that they won't go back to an 'H' style tranny, whatever is the most cost effective is the route they are going to pick. They're considering this due to the rising costs of such SMG style transmission and could result in some form of clutch shifting making its way back in the car depending up on what / how they rule.

- While the cost of a normal automatic has come down due to high volume, the cost of SMG style auto's are still quite high. The R&D costs alone of an SMG box are far greater than what a traditional stick box would be (I would love to see how much GM is spending to get a paddle-shifter transmission into its lineup). There's a reason why most every car manufacturer charges an extra $1300 or more for their SMG equivalents (such as BMW and MB). Not to mention the associated upkeep costs on such units (such as the Ferrari unit).

- There are a bunch of cars that come stick-only when they could have had the option to put a slush-box / SMG in them. Some examples are: EVO, STi, S2000, Lotus Elise, Viper, NSX, RSX-R, VW GTI VR6, 350z Track, MS Miata, Carrera GT, GT3, Civic Si 3-door, Ford GT. Now granted these are usually the sportiest of the model line, but they wouldn't be producing these cars if there wasn't a place in the market for them to sell.

I just don't see the demand dwindling to the point that they will ever stop producing them. I definitely agree that the sticks are in very specific market segments and are in the minority, but sticks are so easy to make a profit on and produce that it's not hard to offer it. Even within the past few years with the introduction of cars like the 350z, the RX8, the G35, the SLK 350 and the like, stick was / is listed as the prefered and default option. If there wasn't a demand, they wouldn't produce them. I still don't think they will ever go away as there are always enough people that will want it. Unlike the FI / Carb wars there's more to this than a pure technological shift. The tranny is one of the most involving parts of the driver experience, hence it's emotive.

 

Hope it works better ( downshifting) then the BMW one.

Not sure if I like the small buttons. Makes it hard to shift when one does shuffle steering though a quick set of corners.

 

ok....so what this means is that we will have 4spd Autos with 2 OD!
I seem to remember my Super Coupe having a D1 and D2.
Does everyone actually think that the A6 will be "close ratio"?
C.A.F.E. HAS to be satisfied and being able to "cruise" at 65mph @1,000 rpms @ 30mpg is what this is all about.
There is no point(in reality) of a 400+ HP/torquer having 6 spds other than to satisfy CAFE. - imho
.
.
.
edit = mistakenly wrote CARB instead of CAFE

 

Not if they drive a 6speed!!!!!!

 

I think this highlights the point that GM has to be more adaptive. BMW already did the research on SMG trannys. The italians have a nice F1 auto clutch with paddle shifter. The technology is proven. GM needs to make like all the computer companies that popped up in the 1990 and just reverse engineer each others work. Why reinvent the wheel when someone has an example you can improve upon (or be like the chinese and strait up copy with a few modifications)?

 

I am sure the same sentiment was in volgue when the two speed auto relaced the one speed fluid clutch automatics!!

Heck, the other day I read people in general dont't like HID lights because they are too bright. The same exact thing was said when electric lights replace kerosene lanterns on automobile in the early 1900's..

 

Sentiment?....I would love to be "sentimental" and believe that GM is offering a truly definitive A6 with equally spaced ratios that would accelerate to 200mph and "tach-out" at 7,000 in "high gear"!
But, I'm a pragmatist and know that GM has agendas that HAVE to addressed and CAFE is one of them.
I hope I'm wrong, but one only has to look at the MN6 to realize that multi gears are there for more than just performance.
I've yet to hear of an MN6 owner "brag" they have "topped out" in sixth gear!
Wake up dude! Do you really think that GM couldn't have offered the A6 in 2005?! OF COURSE they could have! BUT - then they wouldn't have this great technology to offer in 2006 models!
I have an A4 now but after 7 months I'm really missing a "stick"! The A4 is doing all I could want but, even though I'm an old dude, I really miss "stirring the box"!
I would choose a MN4(YEP! - 4 speed) over an A6 with or without paddles.
Given equal tires I wouldn't turn down a race against a C6MN6 with my '66 427ci 425hp 4spd!
I might not win EVERY time BUT - what excuses would/could there be for the small difference in performance after FORTY YEARS of "progress"?

 

Wow, that pretty much says it all. Look at the Ferrari sales at 80/20.

I could care less like i said but all of the rebuttals posted here were living in 2005. We are talking about the future. The cost of SMG style trannies will just come down and the reliability and function will go up. If you think the "ricer" generation would not latch on the real paddle whifting like white on rice you're nuts. The future is not here...............yet, but it's coming.

 

It's just an optical illusion. The left side is closer to the camera. Look at this pic, they're the same.

 

I would think if you are an old timer like me you would think there was a tremendous increase in performance in the last forty years. The early Corvettes were just huge engines that rode like dump trucks. 10 miles per gallon and terrible brakes and tires and handling compared to now. And lets not forget stereo. LOL And I don't think your '66 would outperform a C6. There are many reasons those old 427's are obsolete as fond as I still am of them. I don't mean this in a degrading way. Just some things do improve ever so slowly.
Those old cars broke down so often in every way that only the rich could keep them running.

Yes , I am sentimental too and remember fondly the first Corvettes. The first fast car that I was given a ride in was a Corvette in 1957. That feeling in the pit of my stomach was never to be forgotten. But how can you say a small increase in performance. I use my Corvette as a regular car. If the only thing I would like to do is race at the drag strip I would go for a rail!!!!

You want me to wake up? Maybe some coffee would be good for both of us. I buy if you give me a ride in you 66'. I do love them. Had a friend with a 396 66' Chevelle with the four speed that I loved to drive!

The first ten years of Corvettes were just the beginning. I am so glad for the improvements in the last ten years!

Sometimes people get old and rigid and live in the past. I love now and can't imagine being in the midst of this incredible horspower race again! Never thought I could be this lucky. Let's see. Does 400 net horsepower equal how many of the old gross ones? 500+ I believe.

 

Well-said, 2000 green hornet. FWIW, I'm in complete agreement with you.

 

Pictures - PICTURES PLEASE Opps sorry did not want to hijack the thread.

I think it will be very interesting to see this new transmission with buttoin shifters. I am also interested to see how the torque managment issue will be handled on this new setup.

 

Well, age wasn't mentioned, but I made the connection with the purist thing because it was almost like, when you guys die off. I believe more than age it's just a percentage thing. A certain percentage of people always prefer to shift manually. It's a curious thing to me, too. People with shift or automatic are perfectly happy with their choice and wouldn't want the other. Choice is a wonderful thing.