Well Quicksilver, after reading your attempt at modding your cars, I can certianly see why you are down on modifications. I have not seen too many people who have had that many problems with those type of modifications.

If it makes you feel better, I will admit that I had a few problems with the last car I modified.... Of course it is irrevelant since it was not a corvette...

To be honest, I would have a hard time justifying a CAI+Tune+Exhaust type of mod. It is so little gain in exchange for voiding your warranty...

I tend to prefer an intercooled Turbo or S/C kit... A little more bang for the risk in my opinion. And yes it is a bit of a risk. If you are going for more power, go big!

However, I do believe that with proper design, installation and tuning I do not agree with your assesment that all modified cars are inherently unreliable...

 

I actually don't know anything about ls2edit so I trust your word. I know it has been done with Hp Tuners and EFI locked tunes.

 

No worries dude!!!

In 15 years someone could pull up your statment and slam me with it.

In this business for the long haul

Randy

 

Perhaps I should clarify. I am not saying that they are "all" inherently unreliable.

Indeed, if my Z06 is ever modified, Katech will get it and I will trust it just as I do now.

But I can tell you, that '03, on the road, I wouldn't trust it outside of the county limits after I modded it.

The '05, I took to Maryland to visit my wife's family. One of my only road trips in the car once it was modified to the extent that I had planned to modify it.

But those LG headers were hotter than hell and you could literally "smell" the heat coming off of them, not to mention feel it in the tunnel area, once I hit that Beltway traffic slowdown at around 6 PM.

Long term, I know beyond any doubt that the plastic components under the hood of that car would not stand up to that kind of heat.

 

Finally, Wicked, when I was going through this, and on my computer, and on the phone, I got the impression that there was no love lost between the folks at HP Tuners and the folks at LS2 Edit.

I got the impression that there was a bitter rivalry between the two and I felt that this rivalry may have contributed to some of my problem.

In my mind, there seemed to be a reluctance to allow me to get me equipment back so that I could use a rival product to tune it.

I felt caught in the middle of a rivalry. This added "race gasoline" to the fire of my frustration.

And like I say, I won't get into detail about my e mail conversations with the folks at LS2 Edit, when I was trying to get my problem resolved, but there was no doubt in my mind that there exist a good bit of bad blood between them and the folks at HP Tuners.

Of course I didn't care. I simply wanted my ECM back to where I could use it again and program it with software of my choice.

 

I can understand why Carputing was ticked about Hp tuners moving in but that is what happens look at microsoft. Carputing should of said send the PCM to us and we will take care of it or tell you we are sending you an unlocked PCM with a stock program in it and we will keep yours. In the end they paid dearly because HP tuners controls the market.

I at least now understand your stance on not modding your car. What a nightmare

 

Well, it certainly happens. Sometimes you will see people talk about it, many times though you won't.

Actually it doesn't make me feel better. You want to know the truth??? Actually it makes me feel worse. I hate to hear of anyone having trouble with a car that was running perfectly well, that now is a bag of problems after it was modified. Its not a pleasant feeling. No, I don't feel better.

I know how I felt when I went through ......and what I described in those prior posts....and some of it I left out. A lot of it I left out.

I would not want anyone to feel the way I did. Its a sick feeling... man, its just tough to describe. Its a helpless feeling. Its an "I've screwed up big time" feeling. Its a "how could I have been so stupid" feeling.

You blame yourself, and then you blame the others. And like every human being, you ask yourself at some point: "was what I did, worth it?" "If I had it to do over again, would I do it?" And you cannot lie to yourself.

You seek help from the fellow owners for the mechanical or tuning problem, and then you realize that there is not a whole lot of help out there to be had. You can post up here and get either no advice, good advice, or bad advice.

Take the car to another tuner and wind up with one who is better than the guy you just left,.... or worse. Its luck of the draw.

They say, "You gotta pay to play". Its true. But if it were only money that you had to "pay" that would be easy.

Its the stomach lining that you have to be prepared to "pay".

Its the aggravation, which you have to be prepared to "pay".

Its the peace of mind when you get on the road, that you have to be willing to "pay".

And Sranger, I am just no longer "willing", I am just no longer "prepared" to "pay" those "prices" when I can pay in "money" and save my peace of mind and sanity and spend my time enjoying my car.

So no, it does not make me feel any better to know what you went through with the car you describe above. Vette or not.

So when you say:

Dude, if you only knew just how false that was.

If a guy comes in here with a C6 making twice the power of my Z06, I can tip my hat to him. Why???? because after what happened with me, what I went through...... I don't want even the possibility of the problems which might be, and probably are, in store for him.

Remember those "prices" above which I told you that I was no longer willing to "pay"?

Fine if someone else wishes to "pay" them, I have no problem with that.....but I am not willing to pay them.


Sranger, when I started with my 2005, my original plan was to put a Maggie on it.

But after I had done all of the DIY mods on it I could to cut costs, plus I enjoyed working on my cars having done so since I was a teenager. That was the headers and the CAI.

As I have gotten "older" I am enjoying working on my cars, and household and electronic/computer projects even less. Preferring to pay someone else to do them, or spending the extra money to cut out my own "hands on" involvement.

Those projects which used to be fun....... After a while, at some point, they became "work". I "work" hard enough.

I turn a pretty good wrench, but the big jobs, I shy away from.

I had planned to enjoy those bolt ons over the spring/ summer and then over the fall/winter send the car to Lingenfelter or Callaway for the Maggie and the hood.

What I described, though, derailed that plan.

It also did not help that another friend of mine from the C5 days, had Lingenfelter install a magnusson supercharger on his C5 and was not getting the performance results he was looking for. And had to send the car back to them for further work.

Also others were posting up about supercharger headaches in their '05s and '06s.

I had the Callaway Honker and the LG Pro headers, had everything gone my way, it would have gotten a Magnusson Supercharger from Callaway that fall.

But of course, things didn't go my way.

See my above response. I don't think that they are all unreliable either.

But I would say this, and someone else has already pointed it out.

I believe that you are an engineer, and as such can appreciate how things "come together".

You change one thing, you may well end up affecting a long list of other things.

To do it right, I was looking at an aftermarket clutch. More money in parts and labor. And perhaps a stronger rear end as the '05 rears were known for being "weak" because of the case castings.

When I got done, I would have ended up spending a lot of money.

If everything had gone my way, I would have wound up with no frustration.....but I do believe that with a car modded to that extent, I would have eventually caught a headache ......somewhere along the road either in doing the modifications or some time afterwards, I believe that it would have been inevitable.

So no, I guess its like a smoker who has quit and no longer craves nicotine. I just do not have a taste for it. I don't know what else to say. I don't crave it. I have no desire to do it......and I am hardly envious, indeed, anything but envious, of those who do, having gone through what I did.

Heres a few more links. Modded 2008, so its a relatively new car.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1565615772

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1566366490

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1566091369

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1566081895

 

Wow,

A second responce to the same post....

Quicksilver, I really do hope that you are just trying to warn people about modifying their car. However, I can assure you that many people on this board, including myself, think you are really just trying to support your Z06 and belittle the LS2&3 cars. ( Maybe it is because your mods went so bad...)

You are quick to say that is not your intention. I have read many of your posts and they all seem to imply the same thing. The way you word things like saying:

This kind of statment ruins any credibility that you are simply looking out for their own good. It STRONGLY implies a hidden agenda. Also people rarely react well to basically being told to do as I say or you will be sorry.

You could just as easly have said something like:

" I keep this list to let people know about potential problems they may encounter when making these type of modifications to their cars"

If you cannot see a clear difference between these two statements, then you will never see my point or understand why many people here think you simply pushing a hidden agenda.

As for me, yes I am both a mechanical and electrical engineer. (My proof is in the fact that I cannot spell worth a darn) I also own a machine shop. So I can usually fix anything that I break... I will admit that dealing with software glitches is very annoying. I also would never mod aynthing that I was not willing to break and repair. In fact I have made a few of my friends mad for refusing to help them make mods to their daily driver. I generally won't modify anything that is not more or less a toy ( whether I own it or not )

When I was younger, I really did not like working on cars that much. However, I now primarly work with very hi-tech stuff all day and I find that working with cars ( also like wood working ) relieves a lot of stress. So to me Mods are kind of fun. Even the problems can be fun to solve. You just have to like that sort of thing. It is probably true that a type A personalities should not get into modifying cars...

I am 45 years old, I probably have more automotive knowledge than some and certianly less than others. If you really think my opinion is worthless because this is the first vette that I have ever owned, then we will simply have to agree to disagree...

 

I was trying to break it up into two responses due to the length of my other posts.

Its a shame that you feel that way. Because that was simply not the case at all. I was not "belittling" anyone.

But honestly, just about anything I say, in the eyes of some people, is going to be taken just as you state above. But the truth is, I can't worry about, nor overly concern myself with that.

No matter what I say, some people are simply not going to like that I said it. You can't please everybody.

I thought that I could elaborate on a few things a bit better to give a more knowledgable view of where I am coming from. But seriously, I feel that on a sunny and clear day, that if I even so much as say to you: "The sky is blue" that you won't like it. You will somehow find fault with it and see it as a "rip" against you. I think that you have actually gotten to that point. Its unfortunate.

For you, it is to the point, that I cannot even relate my own bad modification experiences, with my own Corvettes, experiences documented over the years, on this very forum, in threads I myself started, without you seeing it as some sort of personal affront to you, and a rip on the car which you just bought. Thats sad.

But if you for one minute think, that I am going to be "silent" about what happened to me in my instance, and other instances which I have read about right here, out of fear of pissing you, or anyone else off, because they decided to "think" or might "think" that in so doing, that I had some "hidden agenda" to "belittle" them, or their cars, in conveying that message. .... then you have another think coming.

If what I say stops one person who is "on the fence" about what direction to go in, from going through even part of what I did, then it would have been worth it. Whether you see my caution to them as some sort of "hidden agenda" or not.

....

...

Perhaps you are the type to look for "hidden agendas" where there are none. I don't know. But I don't see why anyone, myself included should be, nor should feel, "penalized" with "ruined credibility" as a result of your looking for them. So I don't.

Forgive me, but if you elect to read more into what I said and look for "hidden agendas" around every corner, and in everything that I say, well then I cannot do very much about it.

Perhaps it ruins "any crediblity" for you.....but, now don't take this the wrong way, but obviously I am not going to concern myself too greatly with any credibility I establish, or fail to establish, with you. I don't see any enormous need to. Truth be known, nor do I see even a small need to.

However; let me translate what I was saying so as to "attempt" to not leave you with this erroneous impression that I was saying anything other than what I actually said.

I was only saying that whenever I hear that statement, it takes me back to many of the issues which I personally experienced attempting to do the same thing, as well as the experiences described in those threads posted by others who were apparently attempting to do the same thing.

Then I guess we won't. Because I see no appreciable difference between the two statements. There is not a dimes worth of difference between those two statements.

However if we don't then I can certainly deal with it. I cannot, and will not, let you choose my words for me.

Lets understand first and foremost that you were the one who started the $#** and sent things down hill with:

Until then, both WickedC5 and myself were having a productive and civil discussion. And others were contributing to it as well.

Now if you don't understand that, well then once again, we are still going to "disagree". You are the one who stirred the $#** here.


Some would call me type A. I'm a surgeon. And about the same age as you. And I like to, and have been known to, "solve a problem or two" myself. Every now and then ......but I don't like creating them. Many people use the term "type A personality" in a rude or non complimentary manner however. Some take it to mean "driven" competitive".... a leader and not a follower.

I don't know how you meant it, so I will not attempt to guess and say that you had a "hidden agenda" when you placed this "gem" inside your above post.

By nature, I don't like leaving things to chance, I don't like "making do". I also, don't like taking what I consider to be unnecessary risks. I don't like exposing myself, or my patients to what I consider unnecessary risk.

If I have two of my own patients who were otherwise in good health, do poorly following the same elective operation, despite my best efforts, I'll usually nix that particular procedure, and will be extremely reluctant to employ it on a third patient.

And advise others to avoid it as well.

After things fail enough times, I will usually come to the conclusion that this is not the way to go.

Now if you see a "hidden agenda" there, as opposed to just one guy's nature and being the product of the results of his training and way of doing many things on a risk vs benefit basis, well then so be it.

If a procedure is going to carry more, and potentially expose both you, and by extension, me, to more risk than potential benefit, then this surgeon will not do it.

Of my last 3 Vettes, 2 of them were electively modded. Those two, overall, did "poorly" and had stormy "recovery" periods.

In the end, the elective procedures did not offer an acceptable benefit in relationship to, or commensurate with, the risks taken, and the complications which ensued.

What course do you think I am going to take the next time?

Again, don't take this the wrong way, but if thats the way you take it, "hidden agenda" though it is wrong, I am not going to lose any sleep over it. I have a lot more people who are, and again, ...don't take this the wrong way, a lot more important for me to "establish credibility" with, than you.

 

I tend to agree; heavily modding a daily driver is risky business.

 

and why mine is not a daily driver, its a toy.

 

Actually, I was just stating an opinion which I believe....

Basically it is the "tone" of your posts that imply your agenda...

P.S. I consider Type A to simply being high strung with a quick temper. I was a type A at one point in my life, but have mellowed over the years...

P.S. II Most surgeons I have met ( my step father is one ) are usually pretty good at engineering....

 

As a veteran of BBS systems and early online discussions, I am sure that you know as well as I, that the form of communication which we are currently engaged in, is sorely lacking in it's ability to consistently and accurately convey "tone" or "feel" in some of our posts.

While good, it is still a poor substitute for face to face communication.

I am a firm believer that oft times a lot of what we perceive as "tone" or "feel" in these types of communications, are based upon our own feelings, likes or dislikes, towards the person(s) with whom we are communicating.

In other words, if I already dislike you to begin with, then virtually anything you write, no matter how innocent, and no matter what your intent, I am going to be more prone to take as "hostile".

In part because I do not have the advantage of actually "listening" to you say it. If I did, then perhaps from that, I would be more likely to give you the "benefit of the doubt" than I otherwise would.

Now I am going to state another "opinion which I believe".

I believe that you have it made up in your mind, that I am somehow out to, as you put it, "really just try and support my Z06 and belittle the LS2&3 cars".

As a consequence, really, I can't "win". Because anything I say, no matter how minsicule, no matter how innocent, no matter how benign, no matter my intent, I believe that it is to the point, that you are going to automatically think that it is to achieve the end which you described above.

It seems that anything that you see me write, is going to be taken as a shot or a rip and an attempt to "belittle the LS2&3 cars". No matter what.

However, to be fair....

Just my own observation here, and that is some, and I am not singling you out, seem to have this warped predisposition to believe that most, if not all, Z06 owners somehow inherently, or naturally, embrace a belief that LS2&LS3 cars are somehow "inferior" to their own.

As a consequence, ANY Z06 owner who says ANYTHING which is even PERCEIVED by those folk as being "unflattering" about those cars, is immediately attacked by those people as attempting to denigrate their property/cars.

When too often, nothing could be further from the truth.

 

Went with a wrong supercharger made by a one company but should have gone with another.

 

I have not read every response posted here but I am curious as to the percentage of mods gone wrong have been done by the owner rather than a performance shop? I know that some have the know how to do it but I am definitely not one of them.

 

WickedC5,

I found these for you with regard to LS2 Edit and the Tech 2.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1554909132

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...761#post111761

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1364231

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1555633176

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15677

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1518188

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?p=106417

In my search, I also found this one which I am adding to my original list. Its an unfortunate one. But it might save someone else who loads tunes into their car at the track.

I believe that this is one of our own forum members, who has a 2007 A6 and this just happend a few days ago.

Read the whole thread. Its a short one.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18933

"The parts alone came to $750 so it should end up being about $2500 in total damage when you factor in labor and the cost of painting everything."

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1566244166
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1566244307
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1566264166
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...2068238&page=3
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=2075071
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1566164606

I know myself. Right about now.... I would be livid.

 

like I said I trust you that ls2 edit had issues. I have no experience with that product. I did know that you can flash over Hptuners. That really sucks.

 

I would not be to optimistic about getting any accurate numbers on that, but it stands to reason, that mods performed by a performance shop, would have a significantly better "success" rate on average, than those performed by car owners.

But then that segues into other concerns and questions too.

One of the first to come to mind, is how close do many of us live to a good shop?

Some of us have lots of choices. Others of us don't. For those of us who don't our options are limited, and our expenses for even the basic bolt ons, probably go up if we want to gain access to the services of a reputable shop which is several miles away.

So sometimes what will happen, is that those of us who can turn a pretty good wrench will do our own "minor" stuff.

However things like cam installs, gear swaps, power adders are typically not a good idea for an amateur to tackle.

On the whole, amateurs who do those, are without a doubt a lot more likely to screw something up, than the pro is.

So a person like yourself who may be interested in modding his car, is at a bit of a disadvantage if he does not have good shops around him. And ideally, more than one good shop.

Its also going to depend a great deal on what the mod is.

The more steps and the more expertise, knowledge, experience and specialty tools required for the mod, the easier it is for the novice to screw it up. As well as some of these "professionals".

The more technique sensitive it is, thats whether you are talking about automotive modifications or whatever else, the fewer people you'll have in the population who are able to do it well. Amateur or pro.

So when you start selecting mods which involve significant skill, are extremely technique sensitive, and the knowledge base, for lack of a better description, is "somewhat small", as in LSx forced induction, tuning, etc......the "complication rate" seems to go up.

Thats part of why you are able to find so many supercharger and tuning posts describing issues.

Throw in the fact that few are going to have the research and development capabilities of of these major automotive manufacturers, well, you can see why we read about some of the things on the forum here that we read about.

People don't like to talk about it, but some of the R&D, while that may not have been the installer's original intent, actually winds up being done on customer's cars.

But obviously since there is not much to screw up while installing say a Halltech Killer Bee most amateurs can do that "mod" with no problem.

Ask the same guy to install a supercharger or a nitrous system and your results are probably not going to be as good as the ones he had with the Killer Bee.

Finally, with todays Corvettes, its not just the wrench turning that a person needs to be very good at.....its the computer programming (tuning) as well.

Both are crucial to getting mods to work right.

 

A reputable shop is a must for serious modding. This is why I'm always willing to drive a little further and pay a little more to get the job done correctly.

Sure, I've installed a Vararam CAI and MGW shifter on my new 08 C6, but I surely never intended to tinker with any of the serious stuff. I did plenty of research and found a shop that I felt would suite my needs (Cartek). My car is there right now, getting the full works. Hopefully, sometime this week, Cartek will post a video of my car performing well on the dyno. We shall see.

Over the past few years, I'd installed basic bolt-on mods onto my 03 SVT Cobra Mustang, but found a reputable shop to do the serious stuff (JDM). The Mustang makes 600 RWHP and can run like a pussycat or a
rampaging beast (driver's choice). I'm hoping to realize the same results with the Vette. We shall see.

 

Very true, people usually tend to be more agressive and harsh in an online discussion than they would be in a face to face meeting. Interesting enough it have been my experiance that most people are a little more honest about their feelings online... Of course exaguration is also common so it kind of wash on honsety...

Sometime when I read your posts you seem to start out with some good unbias information. However, before long ( usually in the second or third responce ) you bring out the "you should have bough a Z06" or "if you modify it you will be sorry" language. It is just like the quote I posted last time. The fact that you stated that you saw no differnce in the the implied meaning of my two examples tell me that:

A) You do not realize ( or possibly care ) how bias those remarks sound to others...

B) You do indeed have a pro Z06 or anti Non-Z06 agenda...

I have decided to simply refirain from making direct comments about your posts. It is obvious that I am not going to change your mind and you will of course not change mine. If you want to continue this type of discussion, you can PM me. I see no reason to posts any more of these types of discusssion on this forum. It seems counter productive to the reason to have the forums in the first place.