CAI Question
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,296
Likes: 3
Here in north TX, I don't think rain more than an inch will EVER be an issue, hahaha. I'm sure there's some neighborhoods with some poor architecture out there, but I wouldn't know because of all the places I've ever gone - I've never had to go through even an inch of standing water. So for people who live in places like I do, the VaraRam is a no brainer.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,324
Likes: 0
From: MN
The OP's mechanic friend is 100% correct. CAI's won't do much, if anything, for actual power increases. Why? First, all of the reasons stated in the OP's message are correct. Second, the car's computer already adjusts fuel flow for air intake - if it senses more air, it will adjust things accordingly to maintain power. The only way to take advantage of mods is to get the car's tune altered. That, of course, is the fastest way to void your warranty (along with headers). Unless you're willing to forego the warranty, leave it alone.
Safety Car
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,684
Likes: 107
From: Opelika Alabama
The cold air systems like the Vortex Rammer and the Vararam have solid records of increasing horsepower. It is not always apparent on a dyno,but you can feel it seat of the pants on the road manifested as increased throttle response and drivability. It would be similar to driving your car on a cool clear Autumn morning with fairly high humidity or driving your motorcycle in the rain. Dragstrip stats show a definite performance gain on the ram air style cold air systems. I love mine and wouldn't go back!
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 25,889
Likes: 7
From: Virginia Beach
CI 3-5-6-7-8 Veteran
Your mechanic buddy is right for the most part... the intake needs an outside air source to make a real difference. That said, the stock LS2 intake w/ the twin filters etc. is not efficient. It causes turbulence as the air coming in from both sides fights w/ each other. If I had an LS2 I'd go wtih a Callaway Honker or a Halltech w/ the vette-air scoop.
For an LS3 the stock air intake is great so I'd leave it alone and add the vette-air scoop.
For an LS3 the stock air intake is great so I'd leave it alone and add the vette-air scoop.
CF Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 23,313
Likes: 25
From: Tucson Arizona
I don't think you'll notice much of a performance boost from just a cold air intake but IMO its an indispensible component of your overall modification plan. A true, bottom-feeding intake does provide a performance advantage over the stock intake.
Obviously, with any modification there are pros and cons. The owner's manual warns against driving through deep standing water even with the stock intake but a bottom-feeding after market intake will increase the potential for ingesting water and potentially hydro-locking your engine. There may be warranty considerations, et cetera.
I'm extremely pleased with my Lingenfelter high-flow intake. I live down a dusty, dirt road and it seems to filter dust/dirt just fine. I change (clean/oil) my filter about every 6 months or so. I keep spare filters ready to use. My LPE intake handles heavy rainfall without a problem but I do avoid plowing through any deep water.
If an after market intake is about the only mod you plan on doing, I'd question whether or not it was worth it. If you're serious about modding your Corvette, I feel a CAI is an essential component of your modification plan.
Obviously, with any modification there are pros and cons. The owner's manual warns against driving through deep standing water even with the stock intake but a bottom-feeding after market intake will increase the potential for ingesting water and potentially hydro-locking your engine. There may be warranty considerations, et cetera.
I'm extremely pleased with my Lingenfelter high-flow intake. I live down a dusty, dirt road and it seems to filter dust/dirt just fine. I change (clean/oil) my filter about every 6 months or so. I keep spare filters ready to use. My LPE intake handles heavy rainfall without a problem but I do avoid plowing through any deep water.
If an after market intake is about the only mod you plan on doing, I'd question whether or not it was worth it. If you're serious about modding your Corvette, I feel a CAI is an essential component of your modification plan.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,892
Likes: 1,200
From: Ft. Myers FL
Having owned cars with both the Vortex & Vararam CAI's I can tell you this. They DO make a big difference! Of course you cannot check them on a dyno since you have to be moving to appreciate the upsurge. However, anyone who tells you they're a waste is blowing smoke. 
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Pro
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 516
Likes: 1
From: Long Island NY
As others have stated it's about Air Temperature/Density, not just volume. I put an MTI Xcelerator CAI (bottom feeder) on my car and noticed an immediate difference in throttle response, sound, and midrange power. My car also traps a consistent 114mph (in both 40deg and 90deg weather) and feels mostly the same regardless of the weather conditions.
I think an open element intake is always inferior to a ram-air/bottom feeder but they work on turbo/sc'd cars where air volume is more important than air temp (air temp is always higher on FI cars and determined by the intercooler).
I think an open element intake is always inferior to a ram-air/bottom feeder but they work on turbo/sc'd cars where air volume is more important than air temp (air temp is always higher on FI cars and determined by the intercooler).
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,331
Likes: 18
From: Missouri City Texas
They all appear to have validity to me.
LS3 intakes are designed very well. Much better than the LS2.
The filters that come with most CAI's do NOT filter as well as stock paper filters.
And he referred to aftermarket intakes in the same location not getting cooler air.
How can you say any of that is wrong?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,578
Likes: 61
From: Austin TX
I have proof of gaining .3 and 3.5 mph, not only using the bone stock air intake system, but with zero mods changes! Same driver too!
How did I perform this incredible feat?
DA delta of 2500 ft.
The stock LS3 intake is fine. As others have pointed out, it lacks a source of cool air. That's it. The Vararam is nice in theory, but it so poorly executed I'd never pay or risk having one installed on my car. Plus, the claims of 40 hp are pretty outlandish, particularly when you understand that that kind of gain would absolutely require a tune to realize.
How did I perform this incredible feat?
DA delta of 2500 ft.
The stock LS3 intake is fine. As others have pointed out, it lacks a source of cool air. That's it. The Vararam is nice in theory, but it so poorly executed I'd never pay or risk having one installed on my car. Plus, the claims of 40 hp are pretty outlandish, particularly when you understand that that kind of gain would absolutely require a tune to realize.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 10,089
Likes: 14
Next time your car is on the dyno, do a pull with the stock air cleaner in place. Now remove the air cleaner completely and immediately do another back to back pull. What you will find is no power increase whatsoever. That tells you the stock air cleaner is not a bottleneck to the breathing of an LS2 or LS3 car. No aftermarket air cleaner can improve on no air cleaner restriction at all, so any claims of improved breathing are pure unadulterated BS.
Now, the next bright sunny Saturday afternoon you are at the track, bring along a thermometer. Measure the air temperature down next to the track where a bottom breather would draw its air. Now measure the air temperature a foot higher where a front breather would get its air. Which is cooler? Which is a lot cooler? And cleaner too. Drawing air from down near the road surface is the worst place for a car to get its air. It will be at least 10 degrees hotter than a foot higher off the asphalt, and a lot dirtier (wetter too if it has been raining). Look at an Indy car, notice that the engine air inlet is above the driver's head as high as it possibly can be on the car. This is to get away from the hot air down near the track surface. Bottom feeders BAD.
Now the benefit of a CAI is to let in cooler (not cold except in winter) air. This may keep IAT below 86 F (it won't if the day is warmer than 86 F, of course). That will prevent the ECM from pulling timing. Pulling timing reduces power. Reduced power is bad.
So what have we learned? First, you can't beat the stock air cleaner for air flow. It isn't the bottleneck to flow, so even eliminating it completely won't make one iota more power. Second, cleaner cooler air is available up off the bottom at the top of the front radiator opening. Bottom feeders are bad, front feeders are good. At best a CAI will keep you from losing power, it won't gain you any power. To do that it merely has to get you clean ambient air. That can be achieved with the stock air cleaner assembly and a cut in the shroud. Zero dollar mod that works every bit as well as the high priced plastic.
Now, the next bright sunny Saturday afternoon you are at the track, bring along a thermometer. Measure the air temperature down next to the track where a bottom breather would draw its air. Now measure the air temperature a foot higher where a front breather would get its air. Which is cooler? Which is a lot cooler? And cleaner too. Drawing air from down near the road surface is the worst place for a car to get its air. It will be at least 10 degrees hotter than a foot higher off the asphalt, and a lot dirtier (wetter too if it has been raining). Look at an Indy car, notice that the engine air inlet is above the driver's head as high as it possibly can be on the car. This is to get away from the hot air down near the track surface. Bottom feeders BAD.
Now the benefit of a CAI is to let in cooler (not cold except in winter) air. This may keep IAT below 86 F (it won't if the day is warmer than 86 F, of course). That will prevent the ECM from pulling timing. Pulling timing reduces power. Reduced power is bad.
So what have we learned? First, you can't beat the stock air cleaner for air flow. It isn't the bottleneck to flow, so even eliminating it completely won't make one iota more power. Second, cleaner cooler air is available up off the bottom at the top of the front radiator opening. Bottom feeders are bad, front feeders are good. At best a CAI will keep you from losing power, it won't gain you any power. To do that it merely has to get you clean ambient air. That can be achieved with the stock air cleaner assembly and a cut in the shroud. Zero dollar mod that works every bit as well as the high priced plastic.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 25,889
Likes: 7
From: Virginia Beach
CI 3-5-6-7-8 Veteran
Next time your car is on the dyno, do a pull with the stock air cleaner in place. Now remove the air cleaner completely and immediately do another back to back pull. What you will find is no power increase whatsoever. That tells you the stock air cleaner is not a bottleneck to the breathing of an LS2 or LS3 car. No aftermarket air cleaner can improve on no air cleaner restriction at all, so any claims of improved breathing are pure unadulterated BS.
Now, the next bright sunny Saturday afternoon you are at the track, bring along a thermometer. Measure the air temperature down next to the track where a bottom breather would draw its air. Now measure the air temperature a foot higher where a front breather would get its air. Which is cooler? Which is a lot cooler? And cleaner too. Drawing air from down near the road surface is the worst place for a car to get its air. It will be at least 10 degrees hotter than a foot higher off the asphalt, and a lot dirtier (wetter too if it has been raining). Look at an Indy car, notice that the engine air inlet is above the driver's head as high as it possibly can be on the car. This is to get away from the hot air down near the track surface. Bottom feeders BAD.
Now the benefit of a CAI is to let in cooler (not cold except in winter) air. This may keep IAT below 86 F (it won't if the day is warmer than 86 F, of course). That will prevent the ECM from pulling timing. Pulling timing reduces power. Reduced power is bad.
So what have we learned? First, you can't beat the stock air cleaner for air flow. It isn't the bottleneck to flow, so even eliminating it completely won't make one iota more power. Second, cleaner cooler air is available up off the bottom at the top of the front radiator opening. Bottom feeders are bad, front feeders are good. At best a CAI will keep you from losing power, it won't gain you any power. To do that it merely has to get you clean ambient air. That can be achieved with the stock air cleaner assembly and a cut in the shroud. Zero dollar mod that works every bit as well as the high priced plastic.
Now, the next bright sunny Saturday afternoon you are at the track, bring along a thermometer. Measure the air temperature down next to the track where a bottom breather would draw its air. Now measure the air temperature a foot higher where a front breather would get its air. Which is cooler? Which is a lot cooler? And cleaner too. Drawing air from down near the road surface is the worst place for a car to get its air. It will be at least 10 degrees hotter than a foot higher off the asphalt, and a lot dirtier (wetter too if it has been raining). Look at an Indy car, notice that the engine air inlet is above the driver's head as high as it possibly can be on the car. This is to get away from the hot air down near the track surface. Bottom feeders BAD.
Now the benefit of a CAI is to let in cooler (not cold except in winter) air. This may keep IAT below 86 F (it won't if the day is warmer than 86 F, of course). That will prevent the ECM from pulling timing. Pulling timing reduces power. Reduced power is bad.
So what have we learned? First, you can't beat the stock air cleaner for air flow. It isn't the bottleneck to flow, so even eliminating it completely won't make one iota more power. Second, cleaner cooler air is available up off the bottom at the top of the front radiator opening. Bottom feeders are bad, front feeders are good. At best a CAI will keep you from losing power, it won't gain you any power. To do that it merely has to get you clean ambient air. That can be achieved with the stock air cleaner assembly and a cut in the shroud. Zero dollar mod that works every bit as well as the high priced plastic.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,355
Likes: 11
From: Beverly Hills, MI
Has anyone actually experience a hydro-lock condition?
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
From: Fort Lauderdale FL
The OP's mechanic friend is 100% correct. CAI's won't do much, if anything, for actual power increases. Why? First, all of the reasons stated in the OP's message are correct. Second, the car's computer already adjusts fuel flow for air intake - if it senses more air, it will adjust things accordingly to maintain power. The only way to take advantage of mods is to get the car's tune altered. That, of course, is the fastest way to void your warranty (along with headers). Unless you're willing to forego the warranty, leave it alone.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 10,089
Likes: 14
A lot of water would have to be ingested to hydro-lock a 6.2 liter engine with the squish and combusion chamber volume that the engine has. I've only seen this happen when a fuel injector stuck open and pissed a bunch of fuel into a cylinder. I've never seen it happen from outside water.
Has anyone actually experience a hydro-lock condition?
Has anyone actually experience a hydro-lock condition?
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,189
Likes: 0
From: Northwest Arkansas
...learned a lot reading through this thread. Lots of good information. I recently installed the Vararam CAI + CoW tune. The power increase is phenomenal, but now I have to wonder how much power increase is solely due to the tune vs. the Vararam?
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,435
Likes: 874
From: Bay Area CA
Next time your car is on the dyno, do a pull with the stock air cleaner in place. Now remove the air cleaner completely and immediately do another back to back pull. What you will find is no power increase whatsoever. That tells you the stock air cleaner is not a bottleneck to the breathing of an LS2 or LS3 car. No aftermarket air cleaner can improve on no air cleaner restriction at all, so any claims of improved breathing are pure unadulterated BS.
Now, the next bright sunny Saturday afternoon you are at the track, bring along a thermometer. Measure the air temperature down next to the track where a bottom breather would draw its air. Now measure the air temperature a foot higher where a front breather would get its air. Which is cooler? Which is a lot cooler? And cleaner too. Drawing air from down near the road surface is the worst place for a car to get its air. It will be at least 10 degrees hotter than a foot higher off the asphalt, and a lot dirtier (wetter too if it has been raining). Look at an Indy car, notice that the engine air inlet is above the driver's head as high as it possibly can be on the car. This is to get away from the hot air down near the track surface. Bottom feeders BAD.
Now the benefit of a CAI is to let in cooler (not cold except in winter) air. This may keep IAT below 86 F (it won't if the day is warmer than 86 F, of course). That will prevent the ECM from pulling timing. Pulling timing reduces power. Reduced power is bad.
So what have we learned? First, you can't beat the stock air cleaner for air flow. It isn't the bottleneck to flow, so even eliminating it completely won't make one iota more power. Second, cleaner cooler air is available up off the bottom at the top of the front radiator opening. Bottom feeders are bad, front feeders are good. At best a CAI will keep you from losing power, it won't gain you any power. To do that it merely has to get you clean ambient air. That can be achieved with the stock air cleaner assembly and a cut in the shroud. Zero dollar mod that works every bit as well as the high priced plastic.
Now, the next bright sunny Saturday afternoon you are at the track, bring along a thermometer. Measure the air temperature down next to the track where a bottom breather would draw its air. Now measure the air temperature a foot higher where a front breather would get its air. Which is cooler? Which is a lot cooler? And cleaner too. Drawing air from down near the road surface is the worst place for a car to get its air. It will be at least 10 degrees hotter than a foot higher off the asphalt, and a lot dirtier (wetter too if it has been raining). Look at an Indy car, notice that the engine air inlet is above the driver's head as high as it possibly can be on the car. This is to get away from the hot air down near the track surface. Bottom feeders BAD.
Now the benefit of a CAI is to let in cooler (not cold except in winter) air. This may keep IAT below 86 F (it won't if the day is warmer than 86 F, of course). That will prevent the ECM from pulling timing. Pulling timing reduces power. Reduced power is bad.
So what have we learned? First, you can't beat the stock air cleaner for air flow. It isn't the bottleneck to flow, so even eliminating it completely won't make one iota more power. Second, cleaner cooler air is available up off the bottom at the top of the front radiator opening. Bottom feeders are bad, front feeders are good. At best a CAI will keep you from losing power, it won't gain you any power. To do that it merely has to get you clean ambient air. That can be achieved with the stock air cleaner assembly and a cut in the shroud. Zero dollar mod that works every bit as well as the high priced plastic.
Excellent points, I ended up doing just that. I re-installed my stock LS3 filter assembly and cut two elongated holes at the bottom ends of the shroud to get cold air feeding directly into my stock air filter. Car runs great and the cold air helps with throttle response and keeps the IAT's down along with under the hood temps when in motion. Of course, once ambient temps reaches 86 degrees F, the ECM starts pulling the timing back.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,099
Likes: 1
From: Branford Connecticut
1. Aftermarket intakes can help most cars. Unlike most cars, the factory system on the Corvette is already extremely efficient. The engine will only suck in so much air and he doesn't think these systems flow $500+ better then the stock system.
2. Since most of the after market systems are located in the same location as stock or close to it, you are not really getting any colder air then with stock and therefore the air would not be any denser.
3. Some of the filters used on aftermarket system actually don't filter all that well and you could actually be doing harm to the engine.
2. Since most of the after market systems are located in the same location as stock or close to it, you are not really getting any colder air then with stock and therefore the air would not be any denser.
3. Some of the filters used on aftermarket system actually don't filter all that well and you could actually be doing harm to the engine.
With every iteration to the Honker design, Callaway engineers measure baseline power and vehicle performance and compare it to that of the Honker-equipped configuration. That was done when the LS3 Corvette was released and the LS7 Honker application was expanded to include LS3.
Responding to #2: Real cold air systems actually do take in cooler, denser air from outside of the engine compartment.
#3: K&N manufactures the filter elements used in all Honker systems. The pre-oiled cotton fiber filter media design has been used for years in all sorts of automotive applications without any indication of premature engine wear.
Back to #1, this was posted on the Forum in October 2007 :
Stock baseline run -
Run Ref G with Honker only -
Testing conducted at New England Dragway, Epping, NH. All data as observed w/o correction. See recorded atmospheric conditions below.
Tire for all runs = M.T. E/T @ 13psi cold. Launch @ 4800 rpm - Shift @ 6400 rpm all runs (indicated). Traction System and Active Handling OFF all runs.
OE - Dry = 64°F / Wet = 61°F / Baro = 28.54 inHg (time of day / 60'(s) / 1/8M(s@mph) / 1/4M (s@mph)
Run Ref A = 6:31pm / 1.740 / 7.697@91.74 / 11.941@115.80 :
IAT(°F) - ECT(°F) @ start / finish = 91 / 70 - 223 / 223 (MAP = 98 kPa @ finish)
Run Ref B = 6:40pm / 1.822 / 7.743@91.99 / 11.974@116.16 :
IAT(°F) - ECT(°F) @ start / finish = 91 / 70 - 217 / 219 (MAP = 98 kPa @ finish)
Run Ref C = 6:47pm / 1.728 / 7.709@91.71 / 11.951@115.89 :
IAT(°F) - ECT(°F) @ start / finish = 93 / 70 - 226 / 221 (MAP = 98 kPa @ finish)
3 Run Avg = 1.763 / 7.716@91.81 / 11.955@115.95 : IAT(°F) - ECT(°F) @ start / finish = 92 / 70 - 222 / 221 (MAP = 98 kPa @ finish)
Callaway Honker - Dry = 60°F / Wet = 65°F / Baro = 28.62 inHg (time of day / 60'(s) / 1/8M (s@mph) / 1/4M (s@mph)
Run Ref D = 7:20pm / 1.702 / 7.496@93.56 / 11.666@117.88 :
IAT(°F) - ECT(°F) @ start / finish = 75 / 63 - 223 / 221 (MAP = 100 kPa @ finish)
Run Ref E = 7:31pm / 1.788 / 7.548@93.92 / 11.704@118.26 :
IAT(°F) - ECT(°F) @ start / finish = 73 / 61 - 225 / 223 (MAP = 100 kPa @ finish)
Run Ref F = 8:41pm / 1.766 / 7.528@93.88 / 11.690@118.05 :
IAT(°F) - ECT(°F) @ start / finish = 72 / 61 - 225 / 221 (MAP = 100 kPa @ finish)
3 Run Avg = 1.752 / 7.524@ 93.79 / 11.687@118.06 :
IAT(°F) - ECT(°F) @ start / finish = 73 / 62 - 224 / 222 (MAP = 100 kPa @ finish)
Conclusion: Callaway Honker vs OE Intake 1/4 Mile Vehicle Performance Improvement (ET/mph) = 0.268 s / 2.11 mph
At the end of instrumented testing, we made one last pass w/ Callaway Honker:
Run Ref G = 9:13pm / 1.771 / 7.452@95.24 / 11.562@118.82
Last edited by mcv; Mar 15, 2009 at 11:06 PM.