Guibo

Is C6 Corvette sales really going to total 30,000 units overall? I doubt that.
Your assumption is that they would have to use this only in the Corvette and no other models. That's an incorrect assumption. The same basic seat could be used in other models (Camaro, Solstice, Cadillacs, European-market Vauxhall/Opel, Australian-market Holden, etc.). The seat in the R8 is not really that much better than what you can get in a TT.
As for 4LT, if you think that satisfies people who are looking for a BMW or Porsche level of interior quality, you're sadly mistaken. The fact that GM head honchos are looking to broaden the Corvette's market, which can reduce the per unit cost, via (in part) improved interior quality means you haven't got a leg to stand on. I understand your concern for cost containment, given the current customer base and demographic. But that demographic is getting smaller, getting older. The measures that GM are using to contain the price so that it fits the current demographic will likely cost them in the long-term.
As John said, it's creativity that's the issue. And it sounds to me that his leather is of higher quality than what BMW/Porsche offer. That is not necessary in a mass-produced car. $2500 on top of a $110k ZR1 is not bad value for something that looks much better and provides way better support. Honestly, I don't see how anyone can justify the flimsy ZR1 seats in a vehicle cable of 1.10+ sustained g's.
Even if these seats add $2500 to a Corvette's price, does that suddenly no longer make it the best bang for the buck? Nope. Not at all. It will still be way faster than a comparably priced Porsche.

racer959

Very nice interior. There is one thing everyone forgot to mention, the use of carbon fiber. I would have like to see some carbon fiber mixed in there, just my 2 cents, but it does look great.

m48xhp

they do carbon fiber work. i believe the customer didn't want it.

John@Caravaggio Corvettes

I agree, in a ZR1 I would have done the carbon treatment. It goes with what is going on on the outside of the car. Not to say this car doesn't look good, just my personal opinion.

Bwright

John,

OK, here’s the deal. I rarely bother my contacts on the Corvette team unless I believe the item in question will help advance the marque’s position or perception. They know this and so do pay fairly careful attention when I call. I believe your seats and other elements of your interior design work would be terrific to have on the Corvette. I am sure that if the next Corvette in a road test by one of the major magazines (Car and Driver, Road & Track etc.) were to feature your seats it could only bring significant positives for your operation. Both you and Corvette stand to benefit here.

So to that end as earlier posted I have reached out to the team on your behalf. If, as you indicated in post #45 and reconfirmed in post 50, you are prepared to sell those seats to the company at a price such that the pair could be offered to the end user for $2,500 I will have someone from the team contact you right away. I would imagine the cost is obviously less than $2,500 to GM for the pair as, again, you stated (post #45) that you expected the cost to be “$2,500 extra to the end user.” If it’s the end user then the actual cost to the company cannot be exactly $2,500 for the pair. GM must perform fairly expensive validation testing on the seats which will also incur additional packaging, storage and shipping costs etc. All of these will add significantly to the price of the seats beyond your raw cost to them.

So what is most urgent for me to make this happen for you ASAP is absolute in writing confirmation here as to what price you would sell the seats to the company such that they could offer them to the end user at that price. If you do not feel comfortable posting said price here then PM me and I WILL make it happen. They have asked me to sort it with you and come back to them.

Let’s start with the seats here and see if we can’t expand to other parts of your work later. But I am with you in that I would really like to see your work become an official part of Corvette and have your profile deservedly raised by being a significant part of every subsequent feature Vette test. Given the seating and interior upgrades likely being planned now for the C7, which is doubtless soon to be the team's primary focus, this official collaboration opportunity will probably not resurface anytime soon, if ever, for you and Corvette if we do not find a way to make this happen now while we have this window.

Please let me know your position at your earliest convenience as I want to get this done while they are so inclined and I have their attention on the issue. Those seats are awesome. Let's figure this out together.



B

John@Caravaggio Corvettes

B:
If they are interested they have my number, GM is not in the same position as they where when they contacted me. I will not talk about any financial costs over a forum. If they want them they know how to contact me. I appreciate you contacting the guys you know and trying to get this started again. Will see what they do.
John

Vettedriver986

Will these seats fit in a C5??? I have C6 seats in my C5 right now, but I still hate them. I would LOVE a set of these. How much? You can pm me if you prefer

CarDude

The seats are the one thing about my ZR1 that I do not like. My Vipers' seats look better, even though they are less comfortable/adjustable. This modification is without a doubt on my list of to-dos. Maybe in a few months.

I am thinking CF backs with black leather and red or blue alcantara in the middle. Blue might be best to match all the other blue accents in and around the car.

John@Caravaggio Corvettes

Good choice, let me know when your ready.

CPG1962

John:

Very nice stuff. Really like the alum. accents.

Best,
Paul Ganther

John@Caravaggio Corvettes

Thanks Paul, how are you enjoying your seats?

CPG1962

Great - I need to get them up there for the pass thru's.

They have maintained their firmness and support - no "droop" at all.

I am weeks away from finishing my car unless I decide to do the entire interior but having dumped 85K$ in upgrades I think enough is enough . I think I am going to focus on the new McLaren and try to figure out where I am going to park it, someone is going outside

For future buyers dont make the mistake I made.........buy the pass thrus! A little more $$ but you will not regret it. I never planned on racing the car (and still can) but the pass thrus would be very nice.

Bwright

Doubt less and know more. Corvette sales for 2005 – 2008 were 37,372 – 34,021 – 40,561 and 35,310 respectively. It is only the effects of the financial crisis that have forced Corvette in 2009, like all high end marques, to move temporarily below its normal production and sales numbers.

Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ignorance. Do you honestly believe that you and you alone have given real thought to sharing a seat where nobody else at GM has? Or, more likely, do you not get how unit specific something as key as a seat is especially for packaging and crash validation reasons? Did it ever occur to you to ask yourself why few cars that don’t overtly share an identical platform (such as the GMT 900’s for example) also don’t share seats? It would be so very helpful if you would take the time to do some reading of the requisite materials that would help bring you up to speed on the specific design and manufacturing issues you need to know. If you don’t know what these are then ask. But it would be nice if for example you were aware of the differing safety rules from country to country and how they for example affect seat design. For example, why are some Porsche seats available in Europe but specifically disallowed here? That’s an easy one you should get.

Have you looked at the relative seat widths and void spacing of a Camaro, Corvette or Cadillac CTS? Do you really believe one size will fit all there? Honestly.

My brother-in-law had an Audi TT. We have both spent a fair amount of time in the R8. You’re wrong again.

BTW, if the seats are so similar do you ever wonder why every single vehicle in the Volkswagen Group doesn't use the same seat? Maybe they're just not as astute as you.

I neither think nor care if 4LT satisfies BMW or Porsche buyers. You concern yourself with those things because you lack enough real-world purchasing/marketing experience and data to realize that it doesn’t matter.

Car buyers are for the most part highly tribal. They rarely switch sides even at the bulk vehicle (Civic, Accord, Camry etc.) level. For many buyers it is even nation specific such as they only buy Japanese, European or American. Getting them to switch sides is often quite difficult. It is why some companies even offer incentives targeted specifically at people who are switching brands.

Tribalism only gets far worse as you move to high-dollar cars and, in particular sports cars. Go to Ferrarichat.com and review some of the threads where guys suggest switching to Porsche or that Porsche is somehow offering a superior or even roughly equal product to Ferrari on any level. You simply would not believe the response. Do you actually believe there is no comparable Porsche to say an F430? If you do in fact believe there is a Porsche that could compare you better never suggest it in earnest to Ferrari owners on those boards.

In the same vein, just bring up ANYTHING about a Corvette on a Porsche forum. Go to a BMW forum and mention Mercedes in a positive light or vice versa.

If you want to see tribalism at its most extreme go mention the Corvette name on say, Viper Alley. There isn’t a flame suit made or on the drawing board that will protect you in the slightest. You’ll catch fire at your keyboard.

Go to a Mopar forum where their motto is, “Mopar or no car” and suggest ANY other brand to them. You think it was Ford guys who came up with the saying, “Found On Road Dead?”

Sports car buyers, again, are the most tribal. I am slightly surprised at your inability to grasp this. I would think you would have understood this better than anyone here because of your continued defense of Nissan’s GT-R. Did it never occur to you to wonder why such venom has been directed at that car UNIVERSALLY on all marque specific forums? You really think you can talk or somehow option away that level of hatred? If so, it is YOU who are sadly mistaken. Not me. They wouldn’t buy a GT-R or a Corvette if they spit dollar bills out their exhaust pipes.

Yes, Corvette is trying to up the quality of the vehicles both inside and out. The primary reason for that is that their competition is constantly improving itself. And if GM wants to continue to be competition they had better keep improving. But the primary focus of the car has always been on improvement of the performance aspects. Note the change from base through Z06 and on to ZR1. No real change on interior but dramatic ones on all the go-fast bits. You may seem increased emphasis on interior materials but you will never see it at the expense of performance where the two come down to a budget faceoff.

As regards demographics, do some research on just how many Corvette buyers are repeats. Last I checked it was over 90% and pegged as one of the highest in the industry for a specific marque. GM well knows this and is wisely trying to make sure that that large core of buyers is kept happy. They do this by making sure that the car does not fall behind its competition first on performance. They then keep pace as best they can on technology and interiors. The degree to which they do this is often overlooked.

Adding $2,500 seats, especially as an accessory does not make Corvette no longer the best bang-for-the-buck. The trick is finding and ensuring more than just a relative handful of ZR1 buyers to actually pony up for an accessory to make testing, validation, marketing, transport and storage costs worth it for both halves of the supply side (John and GM). Don’t be fooled by the views on this forum or even this thread.

John’s seats are easily superior to those in the C6. But even at $2,500 for the pair how many people are really going to check that box? Do you know the answer for sure? If you don’t and don’t know the issues in drawing even good guesses (which are really just expressions of bias for or against something) then you can’t really advocate one way or the other because if you are wrong the losses incurred by the actual parties won’t be yours will they?

Bwright

John,

First, apologies for the delayed response, been a touch busy.

You’re right. GM is not the same as when it first contacted you. Today it is far stronger having shed four unprofitable divisions, negotiated a landmark VEBA agreement and sharply reduced its cost structure via the bankruptcy procedure. As a result the corporation finally posted a significant recent profit and remains one of the largest auto companies on earth. Within the larger company, the perennially profitable Corvette program was quickly championed by the Federal watchdogs carefully scrutinizing the profitability of each vehicle line. As a result of this the Corvette program is not only continuing to fully fund where it has to such costly but crucial endeavors as the Corvette race team but, as has been explicitly noted recently, the C7 program moves along in earnest. In fact, the Corvette team is even considering re-entering negotiations for some particularly nice seats for the current C6. Enter you.

I was surprised to see you publicly allude to your seat cost when you indicated that you estimated that GM could offer them to the end customer for about $2,500 for the pair. As I indicated in my prior post, I would be happy if you could PM me the details on your offer so I could take it up with my contacts on the Corvette team. I completely understand that you would not want to post them directly on this thread. Know this, whatever you tell me privately, whether via PM, e-mail or phone will never EVER be repeated publicly. I give you my word on that. That information goes to only one place, my contacts on the Corvette team. If you want a reference check on either my integrity in this regard or my ability to effect this just PM Jas, who you know and who knows me. He does not know who I know but he has been here long enough and observed enough to know that I can do this.

Yes, GM has your number. You have theirs. But it seems neither side is particularly inclined to contact the other. I think this needs to change. The team is sharpening its focus on the C7. I am sure its seating package will be impressive. But the C6 could still use some help. I’m not asking you for your cost to supply the seats but if you could even privately give me a range on your ask I can take that back to them and say, look at this. It’s reasonable and can make the $2,500 per pair end price happen. Call him. They then will. Whatever happens next, that matters.

They slowed down when I told them about the $2,500 end user estimate. Now let’s see if we can’t make them stop and pick up the phone and really try to work with you.

I don’t make a dime off this if you guys get together. But I think it would be great to see your seats officially in the Vette. Look, whatever you decide to do here your product is stellar and will continue to be so. The C7 will be great inside and out. So I guess neither side really needs the other but I think it would be nice if they had each other. We’ve come this far. I think it will only take a bit more to make this happen.

I will wait, hopefully, for a number from you privately. Whatever your response I will summarize the results of my efforts to the team next week and leave it with them. But I think a number will get a swift response either way.

In any event, keep up the absolutely killer work and I hope you are enjoying the holiday weekend.



B

Guibo

I already know the Corvette production rates as listed on the action center. Which is why I questioned your comment about 30,000 overall units sales. It's not 30,000 overall, so the volume is greater than that. And it's not like GM can't keep the same basic seat with revisions for aesthetics and safety in subsequent generations.

Who said they would use the same basic seat in every single vehicle? You're reaching here, and concluding something that has not been said. BTW, have you seen R32 seats?

I have, and their not the flamefests you see on Corvette/Viper forums. Even Ferrarichat has included an American Muscles section, yet you don't see an Italian exotics section on this forum. Corvettes were brought up without much flaming in the direct and indirect links here (and quite a lot of respect, actually):
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=239572
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1574065618-post66.html

There are plenty of people who have owned a Corvette and a Porsche or a Corvette and a BMW or a Lexus. Look at Lexus. They started almost out of nowhere and became a huge success in the US at the expense of German rivals. Are American consumers so dumb that they don't recognize a good product when it's staring at them right in the face? I don't think so. Somehow, I doubt the Ford GT buyers were all FoMoCo-only guys (though many were).

'Nuff said. The concerns that the Corvette would somehow lose its value position is groundless. And I notice you don't challenge the claim that broadening the Corvette's market might even reduce its per-unit price.
The simple fact is, most people in the $50k+ sports car segment expect more than just bang-for-the buck value. They expect that the interior and seat quality be on a level higher than that of a $25k car. If GM continues to cater to only the 54-year-olds, they are dooming the Corvette to a role as merely a minor player instead of the world performance powerhouse it clearly can be and deserves to be.

luvchevs

John,

Your work is truly amazing!
I would be afraid to use the floor mats they are too nice!
If I win the lottery, we will do business!
I will call you right after I pick up the new GS convertible and get the full interior package! Hang on, maybe it will be a Z06 since you can make it into a convertible for me!

Dave

1985 Corvette

Guibo, if you think CF or a Viper Forum is rough on other cars, take a look over at Lambopower.com When you type out "Corvette" or "Z06" or "ZR1" for a post, they have a program on their board that changes it to POS. This place is a church in comparison to some car forums out there.

Guibo

I'm not a member there, but from what limited access I have, I have seen members like Snakebitten post in defense of Viper/Vette without much flaming in response. But who knows, maybe the average Lambopower member is more of a fanboy than your typical Lambo owner.
I have also read flameflests on Viper Alley quite some time ago, but does that represent the average Viper owner? I doubt it. I've been to car shows with Viper and Vettes parked side by side and their owners certainly weren't at each other's throats. The trash-talking rhetoric you see spouted on various forums is not necessarily representative of the buying attitude of the general public.
My point was that buyers aren't necessarily so tribalistic that they would not cross-shop between marques. This is evident in plenty of garages throughout the country where multiple marques are represented. The more reasons we give to more people to buy the Corvette, the better it will help profitability in the long run; it doesn't necessarily have to cost more. If anything, a wider market can help it cost less.

vetteship

Truly a craftsman, strikingly impressive. C'mon GM let's get going already with this option. I know a bunch of people that look away from Corvettes due to their interiors, but this master piece by John changes everything.

hcvone

Great work John, looks like a road trip to Canada, call you soon.