meth not needed?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 11
From: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
I'm interested in hearing more on too little timing. I am not saying it is wrong, but what is too little, and what happens? My friend here tunes a lot of imports, evos, stis, etc. They command zero degrees of advance on a lot of cars that are running 40+psi of boost on 2-2.5L motors, making 600-850awhp. They don't melt, don't take out valves. As the RPM increases the time for combustion to take place gets smaller and smaller. So spinning a 2.0L to 8500rpm he said you get to the point where zero timing is the correct amount.
As far as what happens when you have too little timing: you will have combustion gases flowing past the exhaust valve and it will fail.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 11
From: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
So I read the same post a while ago... but I got meth anyways.. and I don't get it... How do you have your meth set up that you could run out an entire washer fluid container of it on a road trip? Mine triggers at above 5psi..... single nozzle. I have done multiple 1/2 mile drags at pocono all day and never filled it again for maybe another month of daily driving.... I activate the meth pretty much every time i drive the car at least for a bit and still don't run out so soon
Is yours active all the time? I can't even imagine driving it like you stole it THAT much that you have to worry on a longer trip... are you tuned for meth dependency ?
Is yours active all the time? I can't even imagine driving it like you stole it THAT much that you have to worry on a longer trip... are you tuned for meth dependency ?
I can definitely see more than 15 minutes of boost in 4 tanks of driving. 4 tanks = ~1200 miles or 20 hours.
Team Owner
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 24,035
Likes: 2,341
From: Gilbert AZ
That is incorrect. The higher the engine speed, the LESS time you have available for combustion, thus the MORE timing you will need. At 8500RPM that 2L engine can probably tolerate 20+ degrees of timing.
As far as what happens when you have too little timing: you will have combustion gases flowing past the exhaust valve and it will fail.
As far as what happens when you have too little timing: you will have combustion gases flowing past the exhaust valve and it will fail.
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 4
From: Rockaway NJ
I start spraying at 4PSI which is about 2800rpm on my car. I have dual 10lbs/hr nozzles and spray at 150PSI, so total flow is probably in the 25lbs/hr range. A gallon of methanol lasts 15 minutes at that flow.
I can definitely see more than 15 minutes of boost in 4 tanks of driving. 4 tanks = ~1200 miles or 20 hours.
I can definitely see more than 15 minutes of boost in 4 tanks of driving. 4 tanks = ~1200 miles or 20 hours.
Former Vendor
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,032
Likes: 6
From: longview tx
I recently added meth to my A&A and blower cam car. It was dyno'ed at 669 RWHP before the meth and after meth it dyno'ed 648 RWHP. This just doesn't seem right. I did get a new McCleod RXT and aluminum flywheel installed in place of the stock clutch.
Could the clutch cause a loss in power? Is the meth not working properly?
Could the clutch cause a loss in power? Is the meth not working properly?
to the OP
you dont NEED meth at that level. you can run 15psi and 00 RWHP if you want without meth. and if the tune is right and the motor is right you never will need it. MOST people use it cause they want to run more on there stock motor and it helps for that. it will cool the Cyl temps a little as the air coming in is cooler. and more timing can be had which will net more RWHP. just if the meth ever goes the tune better be spot on.
at the level your at, if you were in my shop i wouldnt do meth. we have 93 oct fuel and tune on the safe side. 650 RWHP on stock motors is plenty if you want it to last for years to come.
your going to get all kinds of opinions on this though, so its kindof what YOU want.
Last edited by East Tx Muscle Cars; Oct 4, 2013 at 08:36 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 249
Likes: 1
From: Round Rock TX
Thanks for the response. I'll check with my tuner to make sure that he upped the timing. He's a well respected tuner, so I feel sure that he did.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 140
Likes: 7
From: Syracuse NY
The dyno sheet that came with the car was 675rwhp. I dont know anything about the tune but I am bringing it to my tuner the week after next. I am changing the exhaust on it and wanted to get it set before the tune. I am going to have him go through the whole car and check out the whole car, meth system, fuel system.
Unfortunately its been tough getting info about the car from previous owner. I dont think he knows much about the mods as he had them done at RPM in deleware. He promised me info on the cam for a week and half now.
Its got a 3.6 pulley on it now and the dyno showed 9.7 lbs. Should I stick with that pulley? Dont know how far I can push this stock bottom end?
Unfortunately its been tough getting info about the car from previous owner. I dont think he knows much about the mods as he had them done at RPM in deleware. He promised me info on the cam for a week and half now.
Its got a 3.6 pulley on it now and the dyno showed 9.7 lbs. Should I stick with that pulley? Dont know how far I can push this stock bottom end?
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,987
Likes: 16
From: Phoenix
LS3's can make some impressive and long lasting power on a stock bottom end with a conservative tune. You can run a 3.25" pulley with a stock sized crank pulley. That would put you in the 12-15psi range depending on your setup. I run a stock sized crank pulley with a 3.125" pulley and make 12psi in hot AZ weather. Now that the weather is cooling off I'll probably get a pound or two more.
Before you go changing stuff around, get your car dyno'd on the dyno you plan to use going forward. That way you get a baseline.
Before you go changing stuff around, get your car dyno'd on the dyno you plan to use going forward. That way you get a baseline.
Last edited by jon6.0; Oct 7, 2013 at 01:57 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 759
Likes: 12
From: Tampa Fl
To make power its basically boost, timing, and air fuel. Your octane used sets up how much timing based on readings from your knock sensor. As the timing and boost go up, your octane requirement also goes up. You can run 10 psi without meth, easy clip all the timing out of the motor and kill its potential. Example 10 psi and 10 degree's timing. Vs 10 psi and 18 degree's timing. The 18 degree's is the problem on straight pump gas. This is where adding a meth kit helps out as your shooting octane into the pipe since its a fuel and dropping IAT's. 8 degree's additional is about 80-100 rwhp on most 500-700 rwhp apps.
Some tuners breakout the IAT and give timing only as IAT's are low. As the IAT's go up.. they yank it back down to 8-10 degree's and no harm no foul.
Many ways to debate this, the thing is its all about how much power you want. There is a reason you went to 10 psi.. for more power.. to clip the power.. well thats on you to decide.
Knock sensor is the bible for the motor.. no knock=green flag to put the screws to it
Some tuners breakout the IAT and give timing only as IAT's are low. As the IAT's go up.. they yank it back down to 8-10 degree's and no harm no foul.
Many ways to debate this, the thing is its all about how much power you want. There is a reason you went to 10 psi.. for more power.. to clip the power.. well thats on you to decide.
Knock sensor is the bible for the motor.. no knock=green flag to put the screws to it
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 140
Likes: 7
From: Syracuse NY
Just a follow up to my original post, I ended up going with a different tuner. I took the car to Mike @ New Era Performance in Rochester,NY. Just got home and very pleased with the results. 688hp 595tq.
I was more or less just getting the car checked out after my purchase but also taking care of a little hesitation it had.
I had not went all out with the car until today now that I know the tune is good. HOLY COW this car gets up and goes!
So props to New Era Performance, from what I experienced Mike knows what he is doing.
I was more or less just getting the car checked out after my purchase but also taking care of a little hesitation it had.
I had not went all out with the car until today now that I know the tune is good. HOLY COW this car gets up and goes!
So props to New Era Performance, from what I experienced Mike knows what he is doing.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,272
Likes: 225
From: Farmington CT
Cruise-In VII Veteran
Which C5/6 FI cars don't use methanol that run 9's or quicker?
Don't make a decision on my post, but I'd listen to someone who is building 30 plus FI cars each year AND owns/runs a c5/6 in the 9's on the stock motor. (Cam swap of course)
Www.AlkyControl.com
Www.AACorvette,com Josh (2008 C6, stock motor, LT's, cam, TC, AA, ALKY/Meth) 9.50's
Don't make a decision on my post, but I'd listen to someone who is building 30 plus FI cars each year AND owns/runs a c5/6 in the 9's on the stock motor. (Cam swap of course)
Www.AlkyControl.com
Www.AACorvette,com Josh (2008 C6, stock motor, LT's, cam, TC, AA, ALKY/Meth) 9.50's
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,987
Likes: 16
From: Phoenix
A quick way to figure out if meth will help you is to data log the car doing a 3rd-4th gear pull or just on the dyno. If it's pulling timing for IAT, then you are going to be able to get that timing back with meth and maybe even add a little more timing into your tune. Every degree of timing is 15-20rwhp. In my case my tune was pulling four degrees of timing. I could probably put another couple degrees in it now also.