If my theory of the column lock motor limit switch not stopping the motor occasionally, letting it hit its mechanical limit and leaving a draw on the battery is happening, maybe we could all pay attention to the sound this motor makes as we are shutting down. If this were the case it might sound different if it hits the mechanical limit vs. the electrical stop. If you note a different sound and it is followed by DBS that would be another clue. After all, I think we are on our own on this issue, I don't see GM running in to help us.

Gary

 

I apologize for all of the consternation I have caused on the Forum with my reuest for information from C6 owners who have experienced the dead battery problem. While I am new to the Forum I have been a C5/C6 Registry member for 4 years and the 'engineer in high places' is well know to our members and he has been helping us 'behind the scenes' for quite some time. I fully understand the reluctance of the Forum members to send me their information but this is how we in the registry have been able to obtain the help from this highly placed individual. I thought I would cross over this request to the Forum so that we can get a braoder spectrum of the problem to send to the engineers.

I now have a list of about 10 owners that I will forward on this this engineer for contact. Again, the more names we can provide the more attention we will get and the chances will be greater that a resolution to this problem will be found.

For those of you who still want to send your information please send to the e-mail address in my original thread. For those who are uncomfotable with that, I fully understand and we will work on this with what we have. This is legit and we have been able (through the Registry) to now have a team of engineers assign to the problem.

Thanks again.

Jeff

 

You know I don't have DBS -- thank you Zeus -- but if I did I am not sure I would be paranoid about giving someone my VIN. Sounds legit and worth a try. Maybe he hasn't got TIME to do all the grunt work of searching through this forum. Where's the problem, really?

 

There is a fuse for the column lock...

 

Ok, as opposed to reading all the DBS posts (I just finished reading many) I will throw some things out...

Having lived the life of an automotive engineer I can tell you that the companies don't want the engineers to comment on the boards. Someone could get in much trouble if they were representing the company in a public forum without PR being involved. So if the guy is willing to help, cut him some slack. I used to call people on warranty items so that is not out of the ordinary. In fact it's extremely common after JDP comes out.

I'm going to try to think like he should...


Assume all vehicles were shutdown properly.

The most telling pieces of info I picked up from the forum(s)...

1) Battery drained to 2.4V
2) People hearing clicking
3) people hearing "hum"

Importance:

#1 above is important because it tell me that whatever circuit caused the drain, was probably not electronically controlled. Otherwise, the circuit should have died prior to the battery discharging to 2.4 which is "deader than hell" for an automotive battery. We like to gauge battery charge by measuring specific gravity...unfortunately not everyone has a hydrometer handy.

#2 & #3 are important because they tell me the draining circuit is most likely a high current system employing relays. And these relays are most probably feeding a motor.

Also, the circuit in question should be independent of the RAP system. For now we will assume one failure mode. For example, if the window indexing system didn't see that the window was indexed and kept the motor on, the RAP system should still shut it off.

Someone (actually many) talked about a column lock possible failure. I am not familar with what this column lock does, but if it is not electronically controlled, it should be checked out.

The clicks and hums bother me because a power circuit should be protected by 1 fuses, 2 circuit breakers (usually self-resetting bi metal type), and 3 sometimes electronically via a watchdog timer.

Let's say this column idea is the issue... why wouldn't the motor heat up, thus drawing more current and causing the harness protection to kick in (fuse and / or circuit breaker). I believe this should happen. Even if the circuit was electronically controlled and the watchdog timer did not shut down due to condensation on the circuit board (poor konformal coating) or something like, the fuse or cb should trip.

Here's what I would like to know...

How fast does the system discharge. I read 2 days but I would like to know others accounts. Rate of discharge will point you in the direction of the required current draw.

What systems are not monitored that can draw the amount of current required above.

What failure modes are required to create this situation with each system.

I would check the motors of the identified circuits for signs of heat. Also check the terminals for signs of heat or oxidation. Also if you have a circuit that is very suspect to you, check the relay. Read the coil resistance versus others of the same type. Sometimes a relay that is activated for an extended period of time will burn off some of the coil doping (this is not supposed to happen, but I've seen it), thus shorting the coil turns and dropping the resistance.

Otherwise...

If there is a high current circuit that is not blowing fuses or kicking breakers, there may be an intermittent short or a resistive short (these are very difficult) situations. They also tend to develop heat in the short area.

Anyway, if anyone has more info I will check it with my C6 and past experience.

If I had the circuit diagrams, I could probably narrow this down greatly.
Circuit diagrams rock!


Jz

 

also read some stuff on relay 46...

 

A couple of follow ups to think about.
1Pulling the relay has APPEARED to help out in some cases. Possibly there is a problem there. Some who have pulled it still have the DBS problem. DBS appears to come and go for some people, sometimes months apart, so relay 46 is not the full solution.

2 I agree that the column lock/put in reverse thingy probably has a lot to do with the problem. I have said here many times that a retrofit to 06 status would fix it. Of course that would include (my best guess) is a new computer, possibly removing/ modifying a switch on the reverse linkage, removing the column lock. The big GM engineers say that cannot be done. Something to do with some burocratic safety law.

3 giving out certain information asked for by this engineer. This is a legitimatize request as the Vin# can give out specific information about the vehicle day built , possibly a bad batch of parts used, better chance of locating the source, what options were on that particular car.
He wants that information (home phone or cell) so if needed he can also call for more exact particulars..

4 worried about giving out VIN. People when you park on the street your VIN# is in the front window for anyone to see. How hard is it for someone to find out all about your car or you by just reading your license plate. ANY cop, any friend of a cop, most anyone working for a DMV, insurance company, many state agency’s, any lawyer/PI or friends of. People willing to spend a couple bucks on line can get this information. This info is not secret
If that all that’s stopping you from send your DBS info out, think about what I have wrote and send it to him. This could be our only GOOD chance to have GM really look for the answer. Remember the 06s are out and our 05s with DBS will soon be old news.

 

Last night I played with my C6 and left the reading lamps on to see if the Batt Run Down Protection would kick in. Went back out after 30 minutes and the lamps were off. Took my son to school in the vette this morning. Returned and parked in garage. Left for about 15 minutes in my other car and when I returned I noticed the reading lamps weres ON but all others were off (easy to see in dark garage). Now the manual says that after the batt run down protection has timed out and turned off the lamps, it can be reset by turning off all of the lamps on the run down system or by turning the ignition key on. If I am reading this correctly, that means my reading lamps that were left on and timed out last night should have been reset after I turned the ignition on to take my son this morning. They acted as if they had been left on this morning though and did not turn off with the courtesy function (slow dim to off after exit).

Here's what bothers me...all other interior lamps turned off except the reading lamps. All the interior lamps can be turned on and off manually via the pressing the dimmer ****. This is how I turned on the reading lamps last night. Why did the reading lamps not reset this morning? All other courtesy lamps (IP lamps, buttons, etc) turned off after I exited the vehicle except the reading lamps.

Am I interpretating the system incorrectly? Or is this something we need to check into.

Just a thought, but what if I had not noticed the lamps were on when I returned this morning, would they have timed out again after 20 minutes or would they have just stayed on since it appears that they ignition on reset did not work. They probably would drain the battery if left on over night.

Anyone??

 

I assume that reading lamps are the one in the mirror?

There's something funny about these. Yesterday I met wife for a drive-by lunch - just sat in the parking lot, drank an iced mocha and talked. Here's what happened as I remember it:

(1) I parked the car, in reverse, switched "off". Went into RAP mode.
(2) Wife got into car, opening door cancelled RAP mode. All off now.
(3) I pushed the dash light switch, mirror lights AND RAP light came on. I pushed it again, lights and RAP indicator off. Did this a few times.
(4) Started car, drove back to the office.
(5) Shut down normally at the office, in reverse, switched "off". Went into to RAP mode.
(6) Pressed the light button again. Car went to run mode (green circle). I pushed it again, back to RAP mode. Repeated a couple of times.
(7) Opened and closed door, ending RAP mode, all off.
(8) Pressed light switch again, again I have run mode.

I haven't mapped this out completely, but it's apparent that there is some interaction between these lights, the car's power state, and how long it's been in that state that's more complex than I would expect.

I'll try some other combinations of events to see if I can get these lights to stay on for longer than the RAP timeout.

 

These lamps are not on the RAP system, they are on the Battery run down protection system. They should turn off after 20 minutes. The RAP shuts down after 10 minutes.

Jz

 

I'am working on one right now, 2nd time towed with DBS, car sat 3 days, dead, had 165 mA draw for 15 min. then went to 40.9 mA, according to the GM "chart" it would take ~20 days to kill the battery, We have been contacted by GM about this issue and they seem to be very interested in fixing this issue.
we will keep all interested partys informed...

 

What the hell can someone do with your VIN# anyway? It's not like he couldn;t just find a C6 on the street and copy it down. If he asked for more personal stuff like SSN and Credit Card #'s, then it might be fishy, the information he is reqesting is nothing troublesome.

 

Maybe he's looking for a pattern -- whatever. Sometimes I wonder if we have more fun talking about our problems rather than solving them.

 

As an update to my post above...

Again, shut down the vehicle and turned on the reading lamps. They timed out after 20 minutes. I started the vehicle and turned it off, the lamps again stayed on for another 20 minutes then timed out. The ignition switch did not reset them.

Since they did time out again, I have to assume they would not run the battery down unless you kept going in and out of your vehicle, because this activates the courtesy lamps and when they turn off, the reading lamps stay on until they time out (20 minutes).

Will keep thinking/trying.

Jz

 

Maybe he's looking for a pattern -- whatever. Sometimes I wonder if we have more fun talking about our problems rather than solving them.

 

Hi, I had also noticed the reading (mirror) lamps on. My husband went out to the garage the morning we experienced our first (and hopefully only) DBS. He came in and said he saw the driver side mirror lamp on dimly--not the brighter *on* like when you activate it yourself, but the dimmer kind of *on.*

Well not to rewrite the whole thing, but I did NOT turn that mirror light on at any point while I was driving or exiting the vehicle previously, and somehow it either stayed on or turned itself on. Also, both windows had been rolled down on the car! I did not roll them down. SomeTHING rolled them down.

So something happened to Vapour that night that we have no clue, and it apparently has something to do with DBS. FYI, I am certain I applied all shutdown procedures. Parking brake, Reverse, Shut Off, Column Lock, Smile, etc.

The shutdown procedure is old hat at this point and comes naturally. After a whopping 900 miles.

In case it matters, the VIN is near the end of the model year in the 31,000 range, built in July 05. Not sure if the options matter, but in case they do, she's a vert with all options, 6 speed manual, Z51, power top, Nav, On Star, etc. I don't have a problem sending this info to the guy since it's not personal info.

I am HOPING that the one DBS I encountered was simply my fault somehow and it won't happen again. Until then, I don't worry about it, since we bought a nice, powerful, but compact charger and plan to take it with us when we go on any trips.

Until they find a cure... we'll just deal with it and not stress over it.

As for me, the last thing I want to do is haul Vapour off to the dealer for something I know they won't be able to recreate--why let her sit in their parking lot when she can be comfortable here at home.

 

Okay, I've no idea what this implies, but I did find out a little bit more about the interior light switch.

(1) Park the car normally - in reverse, switch off. The red RAP LED comes on.
(2) Open and close the passenger door.
(3) Wait 15-20 seconds for the lights to fade down and the red RAP LED to go off.
(4) Press the interior / instrument cluster lighting switch.
In my car, I get:
(a) mirror lights on
(b) red RAP LED on
(c) nav DVD starts seeking (no screen, just seeking noises)
(d) humming noise from instrument panel, deeper than I would expect from the NAV DVD spindle motor
(e) faint whirring noise from somewhere ??

That's a lot of stuff unrelated to the interior lights! Anyone else want to try this and see what you get?

BTW, I've got a 2005, 1SB MN6 Z51 URB, made late July. Never had DBS.

 

Right, so if everyone with DBS sent along their VIN, and this guys has access to GM database, he will be able to tell how each car is optioned anyway. And just maybe, he will be able to detect a pattern. You know we assume GM did away with the reverse park & column lock because of DBS... but there may be other reasons for the change and, MAYBE, they are not the cause. Maybe they changed something more subtle on the '06.

 

My point was that we have documented a lot of things here, some of which he may not see by having people's VIN numbers and telephone numbers. If he "hasn't got time" to do a one word search term on DBS, he shouldn't be fooling with it to begin with. The only person who will find/solve this is someone who makes the time needed to fix it. I would think that if he has the time to call people and listen to (mostly) the same stuff repeated over and over, he'd have time to do a search and sort through applicable stuff here.

Mike

 

I agree. I posted my theory on the limit switch a little over a week ago in this post. I can back that up by saying that the little "zip" sound that you get from the column lock did sound different (short) the one time I had DBS. That was the first thing I mentioned on the forum and the only thing I noticed that was different.

I'm about convinced that we've solved the mystery as to the cause of DBS. Now, how to fix it. Will pulling the column lock fuse throw a code? Could it be that simple to disable it? If not, will a C5 column lock bypass work on a C6? I'm willing to try it just for grins.

Mike