I could not disagree more. I have read dozens of DBS complaints on this forum and they are scattered, repetitive, and filled many times with contradictions, and worse, completely lacking in any kind of methodology. What have you got to lose by letting this guy try? I repeat -- what have you got to lose?

 

My point exactly you have nothing to loose and everything to gain. That is unless you enjoy talking about this subject and doing nothing about it. What are people afraid of. This information will stay private, it’s not going to be sold to telemarketers or used in any adverse way.. We will give much better information than the ‘Techs” do at the dealerships. There are some things that just need clarifying, explain in detail exactly what occurred to a trained person is a good example.. Nothing in your VIN, name or phone number is private to begin with, see my other post again I’m not repeating it

 

What does he have to lose by coming here and looking at the DBS threads? Certainly not time, because he's going to get the same fragmented info on the phone and for tasks like these, the phone is much less efficient as people get off topic, ask him where he works, whether he owns a C6, what type of dog he has, etc. Do you really think people are going to give any different (or more concise) data over the phone? All the data he needs is right here. Asking people to provide VIN numbers and phone numbers is only going to get a fraction of the DBS sufferers as a response. And... you really don't think a phone number is personal info? And... And... And... One more thing... we've basically already figured out what causes it for him anyway. All he has to do is come here and read.

Mike

 

What I mean is what is someone going to do illegally with your VIN, i know he is trying to look for a patern, but I was saying in regards of everyone being nervous about sending it to him. What could he do with your VIN (like steal your identity)?

 

Really? Reading those threads is like visiting the Tower of Babel -- so, what is the cause? I never have experienced DBS ('05 6pd). For the first 2 months I owned the car I never -- repeat never -- locked the steering column. I didn't know I was supposed to, but started after reading tales of terror in the forum. I tried to induce DBS by leaving my fob within fifteen feet of the car night after night (as someone proposed). Nope. Something is DIFFERENT about cars that get DBS. That's why submitting VINs might help. Otherwise, virtually every bit of information on this forum concerning DBS is what a scientist would call anecdotal.

So, those who are not afraid of losing your soul by divulging your VIN, please, give this guy a shot.

 

Ok, ideally the engineer would want to get a car that has exhibited the condition. Who knows, maybe he will with one who responds or maybe like ever other car company in the world, there is already a taskforce on the issue and they have plans for or are involved in field investigation(s).

I've been in "his" shoes and have now read most of the DBS posts in the various forums. Interesting info - yes. Enough to troubleshoot - hell no. I would much rather gather incident info by speaking with someone than by reading their post (I've done it countless times). If you go back and read my own posts, you will find that even they are fragmented. I have seen very few methodical detailed approaches on the forum. You personally have provided some very good info, but it is still a guess as it has not been proved. I certainly would be investigating this.

If my vehicle had a DBS and I thought it was the column lock, I would immediately have the dealer drop my column cover and check the function and the components. If there is an elctrical draw from a motor or actuator that drops the ocv of the battery to 2.4v, I would be more concerned with a possible thermal event than my dead battery. My guess is GM would be too. Again, I don't know the circuit, but it sounds like a relay is pulling just prior to the actuation hum. That would make me think the relay is staying energized until the battery drains. I have experienced relays that did not like this condition although they do have a continuous rating.

My personal thoughts are simple...

Without a vehicle that has or is in DBS, I can only guess.
Pulling fuses and relays are not fixes, they are bandaids. The root cause needs to be found and countermeasured.

Column lock has strong potential, but what is the cause of the column lock malfunction...again, more info needed.

Also, I never rule out that there may be more than one type of DBS. I read 2 separate posts that stated their windows rolled down on their own. I believe them (condensation on the power window circuit board - possibly).

More info that has not been talked about is temp, weather conditions, etc . I would want to know this for as many incidents as possible.

Just my $.02


Jz

 

Exactly Jz, but let's not forget phases of the moon. Guys, get thee to an engineer...

 

Hey, this is interesting to me, thanks for posting!

I'll throw in the weather report for anyone collection info. The days and nights leading up to the morning of DBS.... It was in the mid 70s to low 80s and sunny during the day, no humidity to speak of. And at night, got down to the 50s, no lower yet.

She's parked in the garage, which is not a controlled climate--and no real insulation to speak of. The garage does not get humid at all, but it does get cold at night and warm in the daytime.

Not sure how condensation would get on the board (wherever that is), but I suppose anything is possible.

In any case, I just L O V E the way this car makes puts butterflies in my tummy. It's such a beautiful vehicle--and to say it's a pleasure to drive is truly an understatement. Okay, off I go to make the very first mortgage payment on her...

 

OK. Good points. All well taken. You bring up one particularly good point in that GM needs to get ahold of a car that has experienced DBS. A lot (logistically) seems to be needed though, and I'm not sure how long it will take. For example, ideally, the engineer(s) who are actually working on the problem need to get their hands on a "virgin" DBS car: one that has had an episode of DBS and has been towed directly to the engineer(s) without being touched, opened, had its battery disconnected or recharged, etc. Only then could they "probe" to see what is causing the current draw. If anything is touched or the battery is disconnected or recharged or the car restarted, all bets are off.

My bet is that IF all these conditions could be met, you'd find the "virgin DBS" car to have a drain caused by the column lock, column lock relay, or something in the column lock circuit. Personally, I think the evidence is strong although maybe not overwhelming in favor of the column lock itself. Here's my list of why I think the column lock is the problem.

(1) When I had my episode of DBS, I noticed when I shut down the car before the DBS that the "zip" sound of the column lock sounded different (shorter). It never before (or since) sounded strange like that.

(2) The computer basically goes brain dead below 10 volts so if it were an electronic/computer "bug", the computer probably wouldn't be able to drive whatever circuit was causing the drain down to the 2.4 volts I saw when I had DBS. So... the problem is probably caused by something purely mechanical that gets its current straight from a direct power feed (not through the computer). The column lock and back-up lights are about the only mechanical devices not shared by the automatics that can draw power down to nothing. Also note that I measured 2.4 volts when the car had been sitting only about 3 days. I have every reason to believe that the battery was still being drained at 2.4 volts and if I had checked it the next day, it might have been 1.2 volts... or 0.8 volts. Who knows. There's no reason to believe that it just stopped or leveled off at 2.4 volts.

(3) I don't believe the column lock is on a "power saver" circuit that shuts down after 20 minutes, so it could draw power forever if something like a limit switch were not working, causing the column to continuously try to lock.

(4) GM has had nothing but trouble with these column locks from day one on the C5. There's really no reason to believe they've fixed all the problems in the C6.

(5) I doubt the problem is a relay because most relays have a trip voltage of about 50% so at about 6 volts, a relay would "give up" and shut off... unless the contacts got "spot welded" (that happens sometimes) but if that were the case, the first time you had DBS, you'd probably have it every time from then on unless bumps on the road broke it loose.

(6) I did some pretty extensive testing of power drain correlated to certain events (locking, unlocking, opening doors, shutting down, restarting, etc.) I posted my results here. I saw nothing to indicate that there were any electronic glitches or similar problems that could keep "waking up" the computer.

(7) Edit - had to come back and add one. Many people who have experienced DBS have gotten the "service column lock" message. Now many of us (including myself) just chalked that up to low battery voltage and the computer just spitting out "random" brain farts, but these things are starting to add up. What if the next time full power is applied, the system actually checks the column lock and finds a fault. Shutting it down and bringing it back up again might clear it as if it really wasn't the column lock at fault... but what if it was? Some of these things are too related to be coincidence.

My .02.

Take it with a grain of salt, forward it to "the man", or call me crazy. Fact is there is some really well documented info on this site. Usefulness of phone calls aside, I hope that the engineer in question would at least read this thread to see some of the lengths that some forum members have gone to in order to solve this mystery.

Mike

 

I have not had DBS but when I stop my car I do not lock the column.
I put it in reverse and hit the button to stop thats it. Is column lock automatic? How do you engage auto lock?

 

It's automatic (only if you have an MN6). When people refer to locking their column, they mean that they are turning the steering wheel until the lock (pin) kicks in.

I just thought of a good test. If we could get ahold of a car that has just been discovered "dead" with DBS, with the shifter in reverse and no other explanation, we could pull the "column lock" fuse and touch both sides of the fuse holder with an ammeter. You might have to hook up a charger to get juice flowing if the battery is truly dead, but if you are measuring a lot of amperage (milliamps) across that fuse, the column lock is probably "stuck" trying to engage. That's a test that anyone with an amp-meter and a little electrical know-how could do. I actually wish I'd get DBS again now so I could test this.

Mike

 

Well, what is really lacking is a comparison between DBS and non-DBS cars. Yes, there is documentation, but compared with what? I never locked my column, never got DBS. I also agree the members have gone to lengths, but again, in any controlled environment, we need a simple place to start. Then, work our way -- logically -- through the more and more complex permutations. (See Occams Razor). Dudes, why does my car not exhibit DBS? Clearly it has nothing to do with shut down habits. Thus it can mean only one of two things: You with DBS have a bad "part" in your car (and I don't) OR you have a DIFFERENT "part" in your car than I have. So, send in your VIN. Otherwise, we'll keep chasing our tails.

 

 

I will not lock the column just turn it off in reverse and thats it....yes I have a 6 speed. If its the lock then I just will not engage it...I hope

 

I agree this would be a good test. I always unhook my dead battery before I charge it so just after I hook it back up I could measure it. The condition might still exist if it is truely the lock motor. I posted on here a few weeks ago that it would be an idea to wire in a temporary ammeter with an inline fuse in series with the fuse holder for the column lock motor or the steering column lock control module. After getting out of the car each time, look in at the ammeter after shutting down and closing up and look for a reading. If you have one, see if it turns into DBS. If so, the problem circuit would be identified. I calculate there is approximately a 1.5 amp draw to kill the electronics in 48 hours. This would not cause any fuse to blow. It would cause a little warming of the motor and perhaps could be felt on the steering column except I don't have any idea where on the column the motor is located. I do have a service manual so I will study it. I also wonder what that motor draws. If we can measure it and it's in the 1-2 amp range, we are onto something. If it's much higher then?

Gary

 

I agree totally and can add this in support. My first DBS hit me cold so didn't get much evidence. On the second one the car had set for several days and I remember when I disconnected the battery to charge it, it was so dead that there was no sign of a spark as I lifted the lead and when I hooked my charger up it wouldn't even charge for several minutes which is indicative of a battery that is extremely dead. After that I started watching that flashing red light on the dash every time I walked by the car. Couple times a day. My third and last DBS was caught when I walked by the car after it had been parked for about 48 hours and the light was out. I remember that time (I didn't think to measure the voltage) when I disconnected the battery to charge it, it sparked. It was below the voltage needed to activate the electronics so no dome light and no hood light but it had voltage in it. Didn't think too much about it at the time but now it exactly follows what we are saying. Approx 1.5 amp draw, hits official dead of 10.5 volts in 2 days, electronics die and then continues discharge to stone dead over several more days.

Gary

 

What can he do with the VIN, your name and phone number? Well he can find out where you live through the DMV and then steal your car when you're not home. Why do you think people blank out their license plates when posting on the internet?

Anyway, sounds like this is on the up and up, so hopefully we can find something out.

 

Gary or Mike,

Can you send me the circuit digram from the service manual. I don't understand how the column lock works and this is creating confusion for me. BTW Mike, with your post above (the one with multiple points) I agree with most all of what you say, but I don't think you or Gary are understanding what I am getting at... this isn't a knock at you guys - I'm sure I'm not explaining clearly enough. The 2.4 volt is critical to me as I mentioned in one of my earliest posts on this, but whether it goes below that is meaningless to me. I'm concerned with the fact that

1) it drained down to below starting (roughly 12.2v)
2) it drained down enough that electronic systems were not functioning.

I guess what is bothering me the most is that I am guessing that the motor is in a stall condition (mechanically reached it's destination, but electrically still trying to move). This would cause a noticable increase in current and may pop a fuse or trip a breaker. The only way I will agree with Gary that it will not blow a fuse is if the motor is just continuously turning (I would think one of you would have heard your vehicle doing this since - but maybe not).

For the DIC to show a code, means this is a monitored system. I would then assume that the column lock command comes from a module (standard transistor turn on). If a module turns the motor/actuator on, then this should have died when the electronics did.

If I could see the circuit diagram, i could tell you immediately if what you are saying can happen. It sounds like you guys are leaning towards the column shift continually engaging but not mechanically stalled. In all the occurrences, no one has walked by their parked car and heard the motor (if it is a motor)? I do remember reading a post where someone noticed clicking and a hum, so maybe there's something to what you guys are saying, I'm just skeptical. I wouldn't design the system to function that way and I wouldn't expect them to either. They should have caught this in a system FMEA.

Any system with the potential to have a stall current should be protected by more than just a fuse. Fuses are ONLY there to protect the harness. Bi metal breakers are usually apllied as well.

You know, I apologize for the twisted postings. It's very frustrating to not know the circuit. I have a millions things going through my head with this and I have a hard time getting them in writing so they flow and make sense. With the circuit I could at least cut the "things" by half.

 

[QUOTE=Vapour]Hi, I had also noticed the reading (mirror) lamps on. My husband went out to the garage the morning we experienced our first (and hopefully only) DBS. He came in and said he saw the driver side mirror lamp on dimly--not the brighter *on* like when you activate it yourself, but the dimmer kind of *on.*

Well not to rewrite the whole thing, but I did NOT turn that mirror light on at any point while I was driving or exiting the vehicle previously, and somehow it either stayed on or turned itself on. Also, both windows had been rolled down on the car! I did not roll them down. SomeTHING rolled them down. QUOTE]


My very first odd event with the car happened before I ever had DBS and I now feel that it was not related although my first DBS episode did happen only a week later so this odd event threw me off course for awhile. The event was that I had parked the car in the garage with the parking light switch in the on position like I always do. It had been there for maybe a day or two, can't remember for sure. OnStar called me to hassle me about a survey, we got in an argument and I hung up. I walked out the garage a few min later, everything is normal, I come back in the garage about 15 min later and the car is all lit up like a Christmas tree. Parking lights are on interior lights are on Green start light was on the whole bit. I didn't have the FOB with me and was thinking, can this thing be started. I got in and was relieved when I hit the button and it said no FOB detected. I went in the house got the FOB and started it and shut it down again. Never have seen it happen again. I am very sure it was done by OnStar by the guy I hung up on in retaliation but just don't know for sure. I have a feeling that if they do a door unlock, it will turn on accessory mode which would bring on the parking lights if it's in that position. If that were the case I suppose it would have timed out in 20 min. Someday I will call OnStar and have them do a door unlock and see if I can reproduce what I saw.

What you describe sounds like it would be beyond what OnStar would have access to. They can unlock the doors which I presume means getting the accessory mode powered up. I have already asked the group if anyone with out OnStar has had DBS and it seems to be about 50/50 so I eliminated it as a likely cause.

Gary

 

From watching the car die on day 2, I am pretty sure that is when the battery crossed 10.5 volts and the computer died off. A lead acid battery is considered dead at 1.75 volts per cell, 6 cells means 10.5 volts. If you assume a 75 amp hour battery this figures out to be a current flow of 1.5 amps. Some motors, like for example the fan in your refrigerator are what is called impedance protected. This means that under locked rotor, there is enough impedance in the windings to limit current and also heat so as not to damage the motor. That is why I made the statement earlier that I would like to get a measurement on the motor's current draw. If it is in there at around an amp and locked rotor is around 1.5 amp then, BINK. If the motor draws 5 or 10 amps then it's back to the drawing board. My gut tells me this is a very small motor since all it has to do is release a small pin that then can drop in a slot if the wheel is turned.

As far as the circuit diagram goes what they show is a "Black Box" type of schmatic. They show the lock motor which is in the "Steering Wheel Theft Deterrent Lock" is controlled by a box called the "Steering Column Lock Control Module". This module has 4 inputs, one is "Battery Positive", next is "Ignition 1 Voltage", next is an output to the "Message Center", next is a steering column lock control signal from the "Body Control Module", and last is the "Reverse Switch 1" signal from the transmission. My guess is that since it is so very very important that this motor never run when the car is in motion that they are looking for lots of redundant signals before the run is initialized. Like say the car being in reverse, the speed 0, the engine RPM 0, the Brake rotors all 0 and so on just to be sure. Just guessing on how sure they want to be. Here is where I don't know the design. They feed a ground signal back into the "Steering Column Lock Control Module" through a 294 ohm resistor when the Lock Motor is in the unlocked position and through a 487 ohm resistor when the Lock Motor is in the locked position. This switch which gives these two different values of feedback to the control module would then in fact be the limit switch on the Lock Motor.

Gary