Head Help
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,064
Likes: 4
I read good things about a Livernois H/C package a while back in chevy hi-po or similar online article.
If this is DIY I'd stay away from ETP because there are items that must be relocated with this head. The 15 deg heads like AFR, Patriot, etc. are true bolt-ins. Also the AFRs have the CARB EO and the Patriots have the 243 casting so they are stealth.
Here's the deal, I think we are both in the 400RW range, no? I have it from several sources LAPD, OCC TX spd etc that at this power level, and even with all my flow stuff (FAST, TB, headers, rockers), heads only, even if they are great, are worth maybe another 20-25 to the wheels. What any aftermarket head needs is an aftermarket cam.
Looking at prices, I can (a) get superdooper heads for $3,100 installed that will maybe make +25-30, or (b) get the Patriot heads + a cam for $3,300 installed which I know will get me +40 easy. Option B is best for me because that is all I want to spend and I feel 440-450 is about the most power that is usable in terms of available grip and livability. You also have to remember that the stock bottom end and drivetrain are getting stressed over 450RW. That may not matter much on the street, but I see yours goes to the track, which means you need reliability. I don't track my street cars anymore, but I drive it in the mountains as if it were on the track, redlining every gear for 1 hour straight. I need reliability too.
Now, if your objective is 465-475 RW and you don't care about smog and you are OK spending another $1,200 for the ETPs or the TFS plus cam, then I'd go for it.
If this is DIY I'd stay away from ETP because there are items that must be relocated with this head. The 15 deg heads like AFR, Patriot, etc. are true bolt-ins. Also the AFRs have the CARB EO and the Patriots have the 243 casting so they are stealth.
Here's the deal, I think we are both in the 400RW range, no? I have it from several sources LAPD, OCC TX spd etc that at this power level, and even with all my flow stuff (FAST, TB, headers, rockers), heads only, even if they are great, are worth maybe another 20-25 to the wheels. What any aftermarket head needs is an aftermarket cam.
Looking at prices, I can (a) get superdooper heads for $3,100 installed that will maybe make +25-30, or (b) get the Patriot heads + a cam for $3,300 installed which I know will get me +40 easy. Option B is best for me because that is all I want to spend and I feel 440-450 is about the most power that is usable in terms of available grip and livability. You also have to remember that the stock bottom end and drivetrain are getting stressed over 450RW. That may not matter much on the street, but I see yours goes to the track, which means you need reliability. I don't track my street cars anymore, but I drive it in the mountains as if it were on the track, redlining every gear for 1 hour straight. I need reliability too.
Now, if your objective is 465-475 RW and you don't care about smog and you are OK spending another $1,200 for the ETPs or the TFS plus cam, then I'd go for it.
Your right. You speak volumes. Perhaps Patriot is the way.
I am hoping some reps of the various heads will weigh in here.....
Racer
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 464
Likes: 4
From: Westland MI
I was very pleased with the results from my Livernois head/cam package. I added the mods in my sig and picked up 120 RWHP!
Also, see this post.
Depending on stage choices, you can pick up some serious power with their cnc stock castings. The car is the video below picked up 132 RWHP with Livernois Stage 3R Heads and Stage 2 cam, Halltech Stinger, Kook's LT's and X-Pipe w/cats, and a Corsa Catback retaining the stock intake manifold and pulley.
On the Dyno
Start-Up and Idle
-Rick
Also, see this post.
Depending on stage choices, you can pick up some serious power with their cnc stock castings. The car is the video below picked up 132 RWHP with Livernois Stage 3R Heads and Stage 2 cam, Halltech Stinger, Kook's LT's and X-Pipe w/cats, and a Corsa Catback retaining the stock intake manifold and pulley.
On the Dyno
Start-Up and Idle
-Rick
Last edited by SilverC5Vert; Apr 13, 2007 at 09:09 AM.
Racer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
From: New Lenox IL
Most of you guys know I'm a fan of the Trick Flows. We did a 402 with a small cam - around the 224/228 range, and it made a tremendous amount of torque by 4000 RPM. I dont think that the 225 will be to big for the combination. The larger CI of the LS2 should definately take care of the extra CC that the 225 has over the 215. I bet you come out extremely impressed with the results of a 225CC Trick Flow with that head. It should make for some nice torque 
Make sure you port that stock intake, give the engine all the air it can take! You'll also enjoy a ported throttle body, the throttle response after that is unbelievable!
Make sure you port that stock intake, give the engine all the air it can take! You'll also enjoy a ported throttle body, the throttle response after that is unbelievable!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
From: New York
St. Jude Donor '06
I have a Trick Flow heads
I have the Trick Flow Heads 225 in my C6 with a Comp Cam 224/230. I did not want alot of burble and rocking and this set up was pefect. The Dyno numbers correct were 453 RWHP with 420 torque. The band is huge from 3500 rpm and up. I was up in the air on heads but I am very happy with the TF heads. Seems to be the head of choice for now.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,375
Likes: 406
From: Florida
E-Z there PI 
Tell you what though, I feel a mod party coming on.
My question to Mike is: what if one wants to go with a truly "little" cam on the LS2...I'm talking about, say 215/230, .595/.600 at 117-118LSA. I really want that spread for low-down torque and idle and smog. Is a 225-227 head too large with that?
I remember a while back, someone posted about a very similar cam (more lift, I think), that produced excellent results. I'm talking 440 RW with outstanding torque all the way across.
sweetazz, nice dyno Sounds like a great value.
Tell you what though, I feel a mod party coming on.My question to Mike is: what if one wants to go with a truly "little" cam on the LS2...I'm talking about, say 215/230, .595/.600 at 117-118LSA. I really want that spread for low-down torque and idle and smog. Is a 225-227 head too large with that?
I remember a while back, someone posted about a very similar cam (more lift, I think), that produced excellent results. I'm talking 440 RW with outstanding torque all the way across.
sweetazz, nice dyno
Sounds like a great value.
Last edited by TTRotary; Apr 13, 2007 at 01:49 PM.
Racer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
From: New Lenox IL
E-Z there PI Tell you what though, I feel a mod party coming on.
My question to Mike is: what if one wants to go with a truly "little" cam on the LS2...I'm talking about, say 215/230, .595/.600 at 117-118LSA. I really want that spread for low-down torque and idle and smog. Is a 225-227 head too large with that?
I remember a while back, someone posted about a very similar cam (more lift, I think), that produced excellent results. I'm talking 440 RW with outstanding torque all the way across.
sweetazz, nice dyno Sounds like a great value.
Tell you what though, I feel a mod party coming on.My question to Mike is: what if one wants to go with a truly "little" cam on the LS2...I'm talking about, say 215/230, .595/.600 at 117-118LSA. I really want that spread for low-down torque and idle and smog. Is a 225-227 head too large with that?
I remember a while back, someone posted about a very similar cam (more lift, I think), that produced excellent results. I'm talking 440 RW with outstanding torque all the way across.
sweetazz, nice dyno
Sounds like a great value.Unfortunately, this is where the Joke of emissions laws that Illinois has come into play. The smallest cam I've installed this year is a 224/228. I cant help you unfortuantely. I think it should be ok, I'd almost say go with the 215CC head instead, and you'll definately be good to go.
I guess living here has its advantages, everything passes emissions, nothing has cats on it after I lay a hand on it, and no complaints as of yet either. The 224/228 also doubles as an amazing blower cam!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,838
Likes: 1
From: Valencia '32 Ford 3 window with 615 HP!!!!
St. Jude Donor '06-'09
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Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,375
Likes: 406
From: Florida
Unfortunately, this is where the Joke of emissions laws that Illinois has come into play. The smallest cam I've installed this year is a 224/228. I cant help you unfortuantely. I think it should be ok, I'd almost say go with the 215CC head instead, and you'll definately be good to go.
I guess living here has its advantages, everything passes emissions, nothing has cats on it after I lay a hand on it, and no complaints as of yet either. The 224/228 also doubles as an amazing blower cam!
I guess living here has its advantages, everything passes emissions, nothing has cats on it after I lay a hand on it, and no complaints as of yet either. The 224/228 also doubles as an amazing blower cam!
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,375
Likes: 406
From: Florida
OK, here is the post I was referring to, by tjwong. The car made 440RWHP, 407TQ on a Mustang dyno. The baseline was 345hp/340TQ. The torque is up #15 over stock right off the bat at 1,700rpm and keeps increasing from there. Before mods, the car makes peak HP @6K. That little cam keeps going past 6,400... The heads are modified patriots, by TSP. The kicker is...it's an A6!!
---------------------------------------------------------------
Last week I worked late finalizing a tune on a head, cam, header and a Cory special (LS2 Portworks) ported LS2 intake combination. Here are the results:
The cam is a LPE GT-11 with the following specs: 215/230 duration .631/.644 lift ground on a 118 LSA. This cam has a near stock idle quality so drivability is basically like stock. It sounds like a header only car, a total sleeper! As you can see I gained nearly 100hp with this combination. The heads are 243 LS6 castings with 2.05 intake valves and PRC gold springs. The porting is on the mild side but flow numbers indicate that they would equal other aftermarket heads easily at a considerably lower cost when compared to name brands such as ETP, RHS or AFR. The headers I used are American Racing headers that flow into a stock rear muffler section, CATs are used and supplied by ARH. I don't now how much Cory's ported LS2 intake added to the gains.
Also this car is a A6 car and the test was conducted in 3rd gear, the numbers are basically unchanged when tested in 4th gear. I was impressed with the numbers, and overall OE drivability. Just a few months earlier I dyno'd a 06 C6 Z06 that made 446 to the wheels as a baseline! This car now almost makes Z06 power output which I am are very pleased with. I beleive if this car had a Corsa or other aftermarket rear muffler section there could have been another 10hp to be had!
---------------------------------------------------------------
Last week I worked late finalizing a tune on a head, cam, header and a Cory special (LS2 Portworks) ported LS2 intake combination. Here are the results:
The cam is a LPE GT-11 with the following specs: 215/230 duration .631/.644 lift ground on a 118 LSA. This cam has a near stock idle quality so drivability is basically like stock. It sounds like a header only car, a total sleeper! As you can see I gained nearly 100hp with this combination. The heads are 243 LS6 castings with 2.05 intake valves and PRC gold springs. The porting is on the mild side but flow numbers indicate that they would equal other aftermarket heads easily at a considerably lower cost when compared to name brands such as ETP, RHS or AFR. The headers I used are American Racing headers that flow into a stock rear muffler section, CATs are used and supplied by ARH. I don't now how much Cory's ported LS2 intake added to the gains.
Also this car is a A6 car and the test was conducted in 3rd gear, the numbers are basically unchanged when tested in 4th gear. I was impressed with the numbers, and overall OE drivability. Just a few months earlier I dyno'd a 06 C6 Z06 that made 446 to the wheels as a baseline! This car now almost makes Z06 power output which I am are very pleased with. I beleive if this car had a Corsa or other aftermarket rear muffler section there could have been another 10hp to be had!
Last edited by TTRotary; Apr 14, 2007 at 02:20 AM.
Former Vendor
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,749
Likes: 4
From: Valencia Ca
Complete bolt on, without any additional components required.
This combination should yield ... 440 - 450 RWHP
It's really not a bad option. Expect 415 - 425 RWHP.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,375
Likes: 406
From: Florida
Hre is what Patrick Guerra of Thunder Racing Cams has to say about wide LSAs and moderate cams in general (off LS1tech). This was part of a thread bemoaning the recent trend towards big cams which look great on the dyno and make for bragging rights, but are not that quick on the street:
--------------------------------------------
Although I feel that a cam in the low to mid 230s on a 110-111LSA will give the most area under the curve (3000-6500rpm) for a heads/cam combination, they are somewhat lacking in the 2000-2500 rpm range. To get a cam that's better than stock in the 2000-2500 rpm range, you need to increase dynamic compression over stock and limit overlap compared to a more conventional "area under the curve" cam. Doing this means that what you gain down low will also somewhat limit you up high. Compromises. But there is hope...
Something like a 218/222 .605/.581 114LSA +4 would work very well with ported heads or with stock heads provided the vehicle had excellent exhaust. You only get 41.5 degrees of overlap at .006" which is outstanding, but the high lift and fast ramps of the intake would still allow you to make strong power to 6000 rpm. Not a bad compromise at all.
--------------------------------------------
Although I feel that a cam in the low to mid 230s on a 110-111LSA will give the most area under the curve (3000-6500rpm) for a heads/cam combination, they are somewhat lacking in the 2000-2500 rpm range. To get a cam that's better than stock in the 2000-2500 rpm range, you need to increase dynamic compression over stock and limit overlap compared to a more conventional "area under the curve" cam. Doing this means that what you gain down low will also somewhat limit you up high. Compromises. But there is hope...
Something like a 218/222 .605/.581 114LSA +4 would work very well with ported heads or with stock heads provided the vehicle had excellent exhaust. You only get 41.5 degrees of overlap at .006" which is outstanding, but the high lift and fast ramps of the intake would still allow you to make strong power to 6000 rpm. Not a bad compromise at all.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,375
Likes: 406
From: Florida
Definitely an OK interim step which I have been considering myself, but don't expect a ton of power without the cam. You can also upgrade the lifters to GM Racing Lifters for high rpm while the heads are off.
Keep in mind though, that any aftermarket cam will lower your dynamic compression via increased duration / overlap, even if you go to a wider LSA like the LPE cam above. If doing heads, you recover that loss by milling the heads to raise the static compression. That is one of several reasons why H&C are often done together.
The other reason is that heads have different flow capabilities for the intake and exhaust. This alters the exhaust/ intake flow ratio, which in turn affects the ideal cam split. The conventional wisdom is that as the E/I ratio approaches 80%, you go to a single-duration cam, which enables you to improve your intake duration without increasing overlap too much. The stock heads have an E/I in the 67% range...that's why you see so much more exhaust duration on the stock cams (e.g. the 02 Z06 ot C6 Z cams which are 204/218 and 210/230.
Just more convoluted stuff to consider.
I'm calling Livernois tomorrow. Their heads spec out very well and are cheap.
Keep in mind though, that any aftermarket cam will lower your dynamic compression via increased duration / overlap, even if you go to a wider LSA like the LPE cam above. If doing heads, you recover that loss by milling the heads to raise the static compression. That is one of several reasons why H&C are often done together.
The other reason is that heads have different flow capabilities for the intake and exhaust. This alters the exhaust/ intake flow ratio, which in turn affects the ideal cam split. The conventional wisdom is that as the E/I ratio approaches 80%, you go to a single-duration cam, which enables you to improve your intake duration without increasing overlap too much. The stock heads have an E/I in the 67% range...that's why you see so much more exhaust duration on the stock cams (e.g. the 02 Z06 ot C6 Z cams which are 204/218 and 210/230.
Just more convoluted stuff to consider.
I'm calling Livernois tomorrow. Their heads spec out very well and are cheap.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,064
Likes: 4
Hey TT,
Gm performance tech did a comp between Trickflows, AFR, Dart, Edelbrock and the stage III Livernois.
This was done on a bench ls2 at Livernois.
They all did well. The Edelbrock was the heaviest cast and seemed strongest. AFR did awesome as well, trickflows were considered the best.
The Livernois did exceptionally well also. If you dont mind, let me know about the 243 stage III from Livernois. Any known failures from all the extra porting, etc. What does Livernois say?
It would be nice to have 243 castings back under the hood. Stealthy.
BTW, Texas Speed has a special on a 225/225 590 lift, LSA 114 cam. WHat do you think about a matched in and out duration like that?
Gm performance tech did a comp between Trickflows, AFR, Dart, Edelbrock and the stage III Livernois.
This was done on a bench ls2 at Livernois.
They all did well. The Edelbrock was the heaviest cast and seemed strongest. AFR did awesome as well, trickflows were considered the best.
The Livernois did exceptionally well also. If you dont mind, let me know about the 243 stage III from Livernois. Any known failures from all the extra porting, etc. What does Livernois say?
It would be nice to have 243 castings back under the hood. Stealthy.
BTW, Texas Speed has a special on a 225/225 590 lift, LSA 114 cam. WHat do you think about a matched in and out duration like that?
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,375
Likes: 406
From: Florida
Good comparative info. That is what we need. The Liv head is a REALLY good price: $1K. Plus they run a 220 port, which is just about right for the LS2.
According to the Liv site, their head is at 78% E/I, so that 225 TSP cam should work. I'll ask them tomorrow what they recommend.
There is a huge thread on LS1tech started by Tony Mamo in which he tests a whole bunch of them, but doesn't say which are which. You can guess at the ETP and TFS because of the valve angle. They did well. I think I also see the Patriots in there, but I'm not sure. Middling if that's them. Looks like each tuner has a different opinion of what is best and it gets nasty.
I'm also increasingly thinking I want a cam that can idle on a stock tune so I don't have to spend $1500 un-installing the damn thing when I go to sell the car.
PM me your # and I'll call you tomorrow eve. after I know something. Who's gonna put all this crapola on for us?
According to the Liv site, their head is at 78% E/I, so that 225 TSP cam should work. I'll ask them tomorrow what they recommend.
There is a huge thread on LS1tech started by Tony Mamo in which he tests a whole bunch of them, but doesn't say which are which. You can guess at the ETP and TFS because of the valve angle. They did well. I think I also see the Patriots in there, but I'm not sure. Middling if that's them. Looks like each tuner has a different opinion of what is best and it gets nasty.
I'm also increasingly thinking I want a cam that can idle on a stock tune so I don't have to spend $1500 un-installing the damn thing when I go to sell the car.
PM me your # and I'll call you tomorrow eve. after I know something. Who's gonna put all this crapola on for us?
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,064
Likes: 4
Well, this crapola wrencher is gonna do it.
I have one of the best friends a guy could have, another vette brotha right around the corner. He knows so much, has done so much, that he could walk me through open heart surgery.(if he knew how that is)
Thanks to him, I have read and re-read every tech how to, step by step there is. Its all just nuts and bolts, right?
Plus, together we have installed intakes, brakes, coil overs, sway bars, and a re-geared differential, all right here in my garage. Of course, a nice lift does help.
I have PM'd you my cell.
I have one of the best friends a guy could have, another vette brotha right around the corner. He knows so much, has done so much, that he could walk me through open heart surgery.(if he knew how that is)
Thanks to him, I have read and re-read every tech how to, step by step there is. Its all just nuts and bolts, right?
Plus, together we have installed intakes, brakes, coil overs, sway bars, and a re-geared differential, all right here in my garage. Of course, a nice lift does help.
I have PM'd you my cell.