Meth 50/50 mix question
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs Colorado
No worries. I have installed nearly every different system for Meth/Water and I am a firm user of the Snow Performance Products. As long as you are tuned properly after you will love the system.
Drifting
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,709
Likes: 18
From: Montgomery Il.
Hey Bosco,
Not being nasty towards you. Even if you talk directly to Matt Snow he will tell you to use it in a pinch only. Now some will say that is because he wants you to buy his boost juice. Not entirely true because it is a proven issue with the -20F WW fluid that it does not have a consistant mix ratio.
No offense man!
-Kenny
Not being nasty towards you. Even if you talk directly to Matt Snow he will tell you to use it in a pinch only. Now some will say that is because he wants you to buy his boost juice. Not entirely true because it is a proven issue with the -20F WW fluid that it does not have a consistant mix ratio.
No offense man!
-Kenny
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,838
Likes: 1
From: Valencia '32 Ford 3 window with 615 HP!!!!
St. Jude Donor '06-'09
Also,I am going to use only "boost juice"!
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs Colorado
Sure...
According to your signature showing your HP/Tq numbers you will use the Red 375ml/min nozzle.
Installation...Install it as close to the throttle body blade as you can and where the tube has the least amount of bend to it. Make sure your tuner or you put in an IAT after the nozzle as well. Not that hard to wire it into the existing harness.
Tuning...very simple. Before you play with the timing at all you want to make sure your pre-cat A/F ratio drops between 0.50 and 0.75 points when it turns on. DO NOT TRIM THE FUEL...allow the meth injection to drop that A/F. If you see 1.0 to 1.5 A/F drop then you may want to use a smaller nozzle and increase pump pressure until you see the 0.5-0.75 drop.
Use a boost reference rather than a MAF voltage reference. The new Snow GM controllers come sensing either boost pressure or using voltage from the MAF. Obviously your MAF is going to be maxed out with force feeding your motor and you want the Meth Injection to ramp in linearly between the onset of boost and 2 psi_g up through max boost.
Hopefully your motor is built properly to run high boost and higher levels of timing (high combustion pressures). If it is and once the A/F is settled...start adding timing in baby steps where the Meth injection is turning on. An experienced tuner will know when it is enough (hopefully
) He will also want to work the IAT temp tables for timing as well.
As a couple of examples. On a factory 2007 GT 500 Shelby with stock internals gained a cool 50 HP and 60ft/lbs of torque and she is still motoring hard. A force feed WarHawk block and built 2003 LS6 Z06 gained more than 73HP and 65ft/lbs and still had room for more, but the owner said "enough for now". He has an appointment to return in April to "continue" with the dialing in.
Hope this helps...Kenny
According to your signature showing your HP/Tq numbers you will use the Red 375ml/min nozzle.
Installation...Install it as close to the throttle body blade as you can and where the tube has the least amount of bend to it. Make sure your tuner or you put in an IAT after the nozzle as well. Not that hard to wire it into the existing harness.
Tuning...very simple. Before you play with the timing at all you want to make sure your pre-cat A/F ratio drops between 0.50 and 0.75 points when it turns on. DO NOT TRIM THE FUEL...allow the meth injection to drop that A/F. If you see 1.0 to 1.5 A/F drop then you may want to use a smaller nozzle and increase pump pressure until you see the 0.5-0.75 drop.
Use a boost reference rather than a MAF voltage reference. The new Snow GM controllers come sensing either boost pressure or using voltage from the MAF. Obviously your MAF is going to be maxed out with force feeding your motor and you want the Meth Injection to ramp in linearly between the onset of boost and 2 psi_g up through max boost.
Hopefully your motor is built properly to run high boost and higher levels of timing (high combustion pressures). If it is and once the A/F is settled...start adding timing in baby steps where the Meth injection is turning on. An experienced tuner will know when it is enough (hopefully
) He will also want to work the IAT temp tables for timing as well.As a couple of examples. On a factory 2007 GT 500 Shelby with stock internals gained a cool 50 HP and 60ft/lbs of torque and she is still motoring hard. A force feed WarHawk block and built 2003 LS6 Z06 gained more than 73HP and 65ft/lbs and still had room for more, but the owner said "enough for now". He has an appointment to return in April to "continue" with the dialing in.
Hope this helps...Kenny
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,838
Likes: 1
From: Valencia '32 Ford 3 window with 615 HP!!!!
St. Jude Donor '06-'09
Damn Kenny,,,,that's another AWESOME post!!
I'll definetly keep this info!
I'm just waiting for the "saftey solinoid" to come in{Gregg at Snow says it's another 1-2 weeks away}before I put My order in!!
Can't wait!!
George
I'll definetly keep this info!
I'm just waiting for the "saftey solinoid" to come in{Gregg at Snow says it's another 1-2 weeks away}before I put My order in!!
Can't wait!!
George
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,067
Likes: 62
From: Houston Texas
Hey Kenny,
You said in an earlier post that it was important to tune in correlation with the IAT, so what should the temp be when tuning the car? I would imagine it would change from each set up depending on boost and water/meth % so how do you know what it should be?
Also my tuner (MTI) believes in 100% meth and tunes the cars that way. I am of the mind set to go 50/50 or maybe 75/25. How should the car be tuned then? Just experiment by adding meth and timing? Thanks for the help.
You said in an earlier post that it was important to tune in correlation with the IAT, so what should the temp be when tuning the car? I would imagine it would change from each set up depending on boost and water/meth % so how do you know what it should be?
Also my tuner (MTI) believes in 100% meth and tunes the cars that way. I am of the mind set to go 50/50 or maybe 75/25. How should the car be tuned then? Just experiment by adding meth and timing? Thanks for the help.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,007
Likes: 1
From: Eastern PA:ECS Paxton Novi 1500(676rwhp,585tq on stock engine),LG headers, 410's, Corsa Sports, ECS Alky Kit
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Be careful running straight Methanol. High concentrations of Methanol is corrosive to Aluminum. If the concentration is too high or atomization rate is too low from your meth injection system you may get some pooling which will pit your aluminum runners.
Running a 50/50 mix is by far the best for intake charge cooling and detonation control. Charge air temps are dramatically lowered and seeing a lower EGT exciting the cylinder will truely show you how easily detonation is controlled.
Straight water which you better make sure it is distilled! Have you ever seen superheated Calcium or other minerals? Water will help cool charge air...but not much for detonation control other than cooling charge air.
Straight Methanol will lower detonation, but the true cooling effects are far lower if water is not present.
It is all about the atomization of the 50/50 mix to not only get the added high octane from the Meth, but to allow the water to wick the heat out of the entire system after it is injected. That is why Snow uses a very high pressure pump along with a series of nozzles (depending on your HP numbers) to perfectly atomize the fluid. Just like your fuel injectors...if they do not atomize to a perfect mist you will get droplets. Droplets will not wick the heat out of the charge, or intake air, and when they enter the combustion chamber they will not burn properly.
One thing many tuners do not do when adding a Water/Meth system is to install the Intake Air Temp Sensor (IAT) after the nozzle on the later model MAFs. BIG MISTAKE! Obviously on the later model MAF sensors the IAT is incorporated. You can not blow Water/Meth through the MAF for the incorporated IAT to see the temps. You need to wire in an early model IAT for the PCM to see the proper charge air temp. Getting a true reading of the Intake Charge Temp is crucial to proper tuning.
One last thing...STOP TELLING PEOPLE TO USE WASHER FLUID! The only washer fluid that should be used and even then it should only be used in an extreme pinch is the -20 F Blue Washer Fluid. Last time I was in the Southern States I did not see -20 F washer fluid although it was blue in color. ONLY -20 F Washer Fluid has Methonal in it...but the true concentrations are not known. Some say 30/70 Meth/Water...some 40/60...so far I have not seen 50/50. If you are ragged edge dialed-in relying on the methanol for increased timing and you put in less of a concentration of Methanol you WILL DETONATE!
Methonal in a Normally Aspirated motor also works very well for detonation control. Timing is power and the more you can safely add with Water/Meth injection the more power you will make...Forced Induced or N/A.
Running a 50/50 mix is by far the best for intake charge cooling and detonation control. Charge air temps are dramatically lowered and seeing a lower EGT exciting the cylinder will truely show you how easily detonation is controlled.
Straight water which you better make sure it is distilled! Have you ever seen superheated Calcium or other minerals? Water will help cool charge air...but not much for detonation control other than cooling charge air.
Straight Methanol will lower detonation, but the true cooling effects are far lower if water is not present.
It is all about the atomization of the 50/50 mix to not only get the added high octane from the Meth, but to allow the water to wick the heat out of the entire system after it is injected. That is why Snow uses a very high pressure pump along with a series of nozzles (depending on your HP numbers) to perfectly atomize the fluid. Just like your fuel injectors...if they do not atomize to a perfect mist you will get droplets. Droplets will not wick the heat out of the charge, or intake air, and when they enter the combustion chamber they will not burn properly.
One thing many tuners do not do when adding a Water/Meth system is to install the Intake Air Temp Sensor (IAT) after the nozzle on the later model MAFs. BIG MISTAKE! Obviously on the later model MAF sensors the IAT is incorporated. You can not blow Water/Meth through the MAF for the incorporated IAT to see the temps. You need to wire in an early model IAT for the PCM to see the proper charge air temp. Getting a true reading of the Intake Charge Temp is crucial to proper tuning.
One last thing...STOP TELLING PEOPLE TO USE WASHER FLUID! The only washer fluid that should be used and even then it should only be used in an extreme pinch is the -20 F Blue Washer Fluid. Last time I was in the Southern States I did not see -20 F washer fluid although it was blue in color. ONLY -20 F Washer Fluid has Methonal in it...but the true concentrations are not known. Some say 30/70 Meth/Water...some 40/60...so far I have not seen 50/50. If you are ragged edge dialed-in relying on the methanol for increased timing and you put in less of a concentration of Methanol you WILL DETONATE!
Methonal in a Normally Aspirated motor also works very well for detonation control. Timing is power and the more you can safely add with Water/Meth injection the more power you will make...Forced Induced or N/A.
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs Colorado
Hey Kenny,
You said in an earlier post that it was important to tune in correlation with the IAT, so what should the temp be when tuning the car? I would imagine it would change from each set up depending on boost and water/meth % so how do you know what it should be?
Also my tuner (MTI) believes in 100% meth and tunes the cars that way. I am of the mind set to go 50/50 or maybe 75/25. How should the car be tuned then? Just experiment by adding meth and timing? Thanks for the help.
You said in an earlier post that it was important to tune in correlation with the IAT, so what should the temp be when tuning the car? I would imagine it would change from each set up depending on boost and water/meth % so how do you know what it should be?
Also my tuner (MTI) believes in 100% meth and tunes the cars that way. I am of the mind set to go 50/50 or maybe 75/25. How should the car be tuned then? Just experiment by adding meth and timing? Thanks for the help.
Any compitent tuner who is a dealer installer of Meth Injection, no matter who they are a dealer for, should know this also and get the best possible safe tune using Meth Injection.
Your other question about concentrations of Meth/Water...I have seen first hand what pure Meth will do to Aluminum. I have not and will not tune for high concentrations of Meth. So I am not the best guy to ask about proper tuning for pure Meth compared to a 50/50 mix. I will say that the cooling effects must be considerably less if water is not in the mix. The only true benefit you are getting is the higher octane levels of the Meth which will not help cylinder temps on long pulls at moderate to heavy loads.
I have a 2004 Z06 coming in the shop in March that I am going to do some experimenting on. I am going to run it with the IAT before the Meth Inj and then with the IAT where I have it now after the Meth Inj and see what the differences are in power and AFR end numbers. I will post my results then which will allow me time to get my Supporting Tuner icon through Corvette forums.
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Top 10 Most Expensive Corvettes Ever Sold on Bring A Trailer
Brett Foote
10 Things Every Corvette Owner Needs (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
8 Most "Only Corvette Owners Understand" Quirks and Problems
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Reasons the C6 Z06 is Still A Performance Benchmark After 20 Years
Joe Kucinski
How Much Horsepower Every Corvette Engine "LOST" in 1972
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 DOs and DON'Ts for Protecting Your Convertible Top!
Michael S. Palmer
Top 10 Most Explosive Corvettes Ever Made: Power-to-Weight Ratio Ranked!
Joe Kucinski
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,007
Likes: 1
From: Eastern PA:ECS Paxton Novi 1500(676rwhp,585tq on stock engine),LG headers, 410's, Corsa Sports, ECS Alky Kit
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
I just ordered 8 gallons of "Boost Juice" from Snows. Damn freight cost more than the product unfortunately 
Oh well, I'm going to give it a shot after I speak with ECS about my tune, to make sure I'm ok with it.
Thanks again for the info.
Oh well, I'm going to give it a shot after I speak with ECS about my tune, to make sure I'm ok with it.
Thanks again for the info.
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs Colorado
I just saw 4 dealers for Snow out in PA. Did you do a zip code search to see if there is one closer to you to save on shipping cost? Just a thought.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,007
Likes: 1
From: Eastern PA:ECS Paxton Novi 1500(676rwhp,585tq on stock engine),LG headers, 410's, Corsa Sports, ECS Alky Kit
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,067
Likes: 62
From: Houston Texas
TGPilot
I never thought about that aspect of it, the MAF will never read the IAT because it is after the water/meth. So basically the tuner will over ride the timing based on what he is seeing on the dyno and A/F ratio numbers.
One other question and I know there are several variables, if I run a snow kit at 50/50 with a D-1 procharger at 10psi, 60lbs inj. with BAP on a LS2, what size nozzel should I use, and what psi should I start the water/meth and at what psi do you go to max flow?
One other question and I know there are several variables, if I run a snow kit at 50/50 with a D-1 procharger at 10psi, 60lbs inj. with BAP on a LS2, what size nozzel should I use, and what psi should I start the water/meth and at what psi do you go to max flow?
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs Colorado
vertC6...
The size of the nozzle cross-reference is normally based on the HP output. 725-750+ HP is the large Blue Nozzle which is 625 ml/min. The Red nozzle (375ml/min) I have used all the way up to 680HP with a tweak to the pump head regulator. The pump comes set at 220psi_g line pressure...you can turn that pressure to increase or decrease the flow of the nozzle. Your Tuner will need to make any appropriate changes to get the A/F drop I talked about earlier.
I normally set the ramp rate to start at 1.5-2.0 psi_g and then be at max duty cycle at 1 pound before max boost. So on what you described max duty cycle would be at 9 psi_g.
The biggest thing people need to pay attention to is having a perfect tune for the application PRIOR to the install and turning on the Meth Injection. Otherwise your tuner will be chasing his tail wondering why the A/F is all over and minimal gains in power due to minimal timing being able to be added.
The size of the nozzle cross-reference is normally based on the HP output. 725-750+ HP is the large Blue Nozzle which is 625 ml/min. The Red nozzle (375ml/min) I have used all the way up to 680HP with a tweak to the pump head regulator. The pump comes set at 220psi_g line pressure...you can turn that pressure to increase or decrease the flow of the nozzle. Your Tuner will need to make any appropriate changes to get the A/F drop I talked about earlier.
I normally set the ramp rate to start at 1.5-2.0 psi_g and then be at max duty cycle at 1 pound before max boost. So on what you described max duty cycle would be at 9 psi_g.
The biggest thing people need to pay attention to is having a perfect tune for the application PRIOR to the install and turning on the Meth Injection. Otherwise your tuner will be chasing his tail wondering why the A/F is all over and minimal gains in power due to minimal timing being able to be added.
Last edited by TGPilot; Feb 6, 2008 at 12:45 PM.
Drifting
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,709
Likes: 18
From: Montgomery Il.
+1 i know it's not a Corvette but the principle is the same and my Subaru was tuned first on 93 oct. then he tuned it for the alky. base map first then the realtime map w/alky.
