Leaf Springs
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: Clayton Missouri
Leaf Springs
Excuse me for my obvious ignorance, but my friends with 'upscale' sports cars keep on teasing me about my leaf springs. They claim that they are primitive, a throwback to the era of the stagecoach or the connestoga wagons alla Horace Mann.
I know the general likes cheap interiors, but why compromise on such a essintial component? Are coil springs THAT much better?
I know the general likes cheap interiors, but why compromise on such a essintial component? Are coil springs THAT much better?
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,359
Likes: 6
From: Los Alamitos California
St. Jude Donor '09
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,359
Likes: 6
From: Los Alamitos California
St. Jude Donor '09
Leaf springs are ditched on the race cars.
http://machinedesign.com/ContentItem...htransfer.aspx
San
http://machinedesign.com/ContentItem...htransfer.aspx
San
Safety Car
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,821
Likes: 347
From: Albuquerque NM
GM puts transverse leafs on the Corvette not because they are cheaper, they aren't. They use them because they are better. Lower weight, lower CG, and how they function allows smaller lighter sway bars.
Tell your friends too bad they are stuck with their inferior coil springs.
Tell your friends too bad they are stuck with their inferior coil springs.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 10,030
Likes: 10
From: Prescott AZ
St. Jude Donor '04
Leaf springs are ditched on the race cars.
http://machinedesign.com/ContentItem...htransfer.aspx
San
http://machinedesign.com/ContentItem...htransfer.aspx
San
Last edited by Wicked C5; Jul 12, 2008 at 01:39 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,359
Likes: 6
From: Los Alamitos California
St. Jude Donor '09
GM puts transverse leafs on the Corvette not because they are cheaper, they aren't. They use them because they are better. Lower weight, lower CG, and how they function allows smaller lighter sway bars.
Tell your friends too bad they are stuck with their inferior coil springs.
Tell your friends too bad they are stuck with their inferior coil springs.
San
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Racer
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 310
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From: NC
Certainly many benefits to both coil overs and Leaf springs. As stated, the leafs are extremely light. They maintain their spring rate for life where coils tend to sag over time. The coils are located higher in the suspension and unless they are made of aluminum will almost always result in moving weight higher up in the vehicle. Formula 1 went away from coils due to the weight and size.
I would challenge your buddies to beat a stock Z06 around a decent racecourse stock for stock. Take a look at the Top Gear website for times around their racetrack and most certainly a C6 and certainly a Z06 will keep up with any supercar in production in its price range.
Having said all that an aluminum coil adjustable setup is the way to go for club type racing. And would be my choice to upgrade my own suspension. I'm sure the experst on both side will chime in shortly.
I would challenge your buddies to beat a stock Z06 around a decent racecourse stock for stock. Take a look at the Top Gear website for times around their racetrack and most certainly a C6 and certainly a Z06 will keep up with any supercar in production in its price range.
Having said all that an aluminum coil adjustable setup is the way to go for club type racing. And would be my choice to upgrade my own suspension. I'm sure the experst on both side will chime in shortly.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,860
Likes: 5
From: Tampa FL
Corvette leaf springs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_springs
Vette has had them a long time. Your buddies assume that since their "upscale" cars have a certain suspension then it must be better. Not true. Vettes perform on the track as well or better time and time again and I'm not talking C6R, I'm talking stock test in Road and Track etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_springs
Vette has had them a long time. Your buddies assume that since their "upscale" cars have a certain suspension then it must be better. Not true. Vettes perform on the track as well or better time and time again and I'm not talking C6R, I'm talking stock test in Road and Track etc.
Last edited by goatts; Jul 12, 2008 at 04:14 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,373
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From: Chatsworth California
GM puts transverse leafs on the Corvette not because they are cheaper, they aren't. They use them because they are better. Lower weight, lower CG, and how they function allows smaller lighter sway bars.
Tell your friends too bad they are stuck with their inferior coil springs.
Tell your friends too bad they are stuck with their inferior coil springs.
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,989
Likes: 5
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No they didn't. The reason GM produces a T1 kit is for SCCA T1 class. Nothing to do with the LM C5R or C6R.
Last edited by C6400hp; Jul 12, 2008 at 05:36 PM.
Racer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 422
Likes: 6
From: Boca Raton Florida
I would tell your friends that your springs are composite, adjustable, light weight don't stag, or rust. Maintain better suspension gometry better than almost any US certified auto. My elise had nitron race coilover which were little works of art, all billit, and adjustable. I think it is just another way of accomplishing the mission with a different twist.
CF Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 23,313
Likes: 25
From: Tucson Arizona
Don't just think the transverse leaf spring is from the Stone Age...checkout the following link:
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...f-springs.html
I don't think the transverse leaf spring is quite the horse and buggy suspension your friends make it out to be but I do believe a coil-over suspension is slightly better on the track.
The stock Corvette leaf springs (on all models) can be used quite effectively on the track and there are even more competition oriented leaf springs available.
The coil-over suspension will be marginally better on the race track but don't hang your head in shame, I think your upscale sports car friends would be surprised with how well a 'horse and buggy suspension' Vette can run against their 911tt's.
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...f-springs.html
I don't think the transverse leaf spring is quite the horse and buggy suspension your friends make it out to be but I do believe a coil-over suspension is slightly better on the track.
The stock Corvette leaf springs (on all models) can be used quite effectively on the track and there are even more competition oriented leaf springs available.
The coil-over suspension will be marginally better on the race track but don't hang your head in shame, I think your upscale sports car friends would be surprised with how well a 'horse and buggy suspension' Vette can run against their 911tt's.
Drifting
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,709
Likes: 18
From: Montgomery Il.
Leaf springs are ditched on the race cars.
http://machinedesign.com/ContentItem...htransfer.aspx
San
http://machinedesign.com/ContentItem...htransfer.aspx
San
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,153
Likes: 0
good info
Corvette leaf springs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_springs
Vette has had them a long time. Your buddies assume that since their "upscale" cars have a certain suspension then it must be better. Not true. Vettes perform on the track as well or better time and time again and I'm not talking C6R, I'm talking stock test in Road and Track etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_springs
Vette has had them a long time. Your buddies assume that since their "upscale" cars have a certain suspension then it must be better. Not true. Vettes perform on the track as well or better time and time again and I'm not talking C6R, I'm talking stock test in Road and Track etc.
My first thought was that GM used leaf composit because it was cheaper. Actually it is more expensive to use this type of suspension, so the engineers made a crafted decision not based solely on cost.
Last edited by beachfrontvette; Jul 14, 2008 at 10:14 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,860
Likes: 5
From: Tampa FL
Also, engineers tend to use what they are familiar with and corvette has had them a long time. And they work quite well. It would be interesting to hear Aaron Pfadt's opinion.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,610
Likes: 12
I'm certainly no expert, but when I ditched the leaf springs and stocker shocks and installed Pfadt adjustable coilovers w/ poly bushings there was a world of difference immediately (also: Z51 sway bars, performance tires, steering adjustment, alignment and a 4 point balance.)
No more pitching from side to side and the car is so much more responsive. I would not have known there would be so much of a difference.
No more pitching from side to side and the car is so much more responsive. I would not have known there would be so much of a difference.
Racer
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 285
Likes: 8
I'm certainly no expert, but when I ditched the leaf springs and stocker shocks and installed Pfadt adjustable coilovers w/ poly bushings there was a world of difference immediately (also: Z51 sway bars, performance tires, steering adjustment, alignment and a 4 point balance.)
No more pitching from side to side and the car is so much more responsive. I would not have known there would be so much of a difference.
No more pitching from side to side and the car is so much more responsive. I would not have known there would be so much of a difference.
But you also changed the bushings and dampers. The bushings can tighten up the movement of the suspension and remove slop. A good set of shocks can make a huge difference. The factory shocks likely cost a small fraction of the ones you just added.
I have no doubt that your new setup handles better. The question is which component really made it handle better? It's possible that it would handle just as well if you switched all the springs back to the original ones (leaves and roll bars) but retained the better bushings and dampers.
Anyway, some general food for thought. First, most of the people who are critical of the leaf spring are not engineers and do not understand what they are talking about. If you press them they likely can’t say why a leaf spring was ever a bad idea and certainly can’t say why it’s bad on the Corvette.
Some people will claim it was cheaper. Well it that’s the case why does GM only use it on expensive cars? Why doesn’t the Cobalt use ist? When it was used on sedans, it was GM’s more expensive FWD cars which got the rear leaf spring, not the Cavalier.
The Ultimate Car Page forum was posted one another Corvette forum. Here was one of the replies.
Here is an FYI in reference to the terrific post above…
That post probably had the best, unbiased information I have ever read about the transversely mounted Corvette Composite Monosprings. I believe the setup is also used in several other GM models now. While the concept has been around forever, not until recently (meaning 20-30 years ago) has composite technology advanced enough to make a spring that will last virtually forever and work far better than steel leafs or coils ever could. Comparing the two technologies is like comparing apples and oranges.
Being a composite spring manufacturer, I know of very few makers of these springs for the Corvette (or any other car for that matter). Our own springs were designed by a composite engineer (Joe Bursell) back in the mid 1970s and he has continued to refine the design since then. Previously, Joe had been designing compound bows for Bear Archery. The springs we make today are actually much better than those from 20 or 30 years ago (and the old ones were pretty darn good).
Those first springs were for the rear of the C3 Corvette and the F-Body Camaro and Firebird (plus a few special military and industrial apps). Later, we manufactured different A-arms and mounts to convert these older cars to the improved Corvette type transverse system. We also took the existing GM idea a step further, giving it independently adjustable spring rate and ride height at all four corners. We have also manufactured composite springs that are resold by HyperCoil (mentioned in the above post) for several of their race applications.
The post has listed almost all of the benefits of this system; lowered CG, weight saving, energy transfer similar to a sway bar, faster reaction than steel (leafs or coils) and super long life. There are probably others I can think of later… J
The down side of transverse composite springs are few but notable; higher price, fewer choices (as costs to manufacture are very high compared to coils), not nearly as heat resistant as steel. Anything else?
I believe we will see more use of similar suspensions in the near future. Production costs will drop as the technology becomes more commonplace. Sure, the coil-over will have its place in racing, but unless I had a racecar AND a streetcar I wouldn’t want to change the coils from race to street setup nor change them every time the steel coils begin to fatigue.
Can you imagine a powerful, lightweight, hydrogen power-cell sports car in 20 (or less) years with a composite-fiber body and frame using ancient steel coil or leaf spring technology? No way… Those cars will have transverse or torsion bar composite based systems along with computer controlled shocks or dampeners of some type and variable power and braking to each wheel – all working in conjunction with feedback from the suspension. This technology is here right now – I believe it will be for sale as soon as the numbers add up for the big automakers… For what its worth, there’s my two (or three) cents…
Sincerely,
Alan G.
Vette Brakes & Products, Inc.
http://www.VBandP.com
alan@VBandP.com
800-237-9991
That post probably had the best, unbiased information I have ever read about the transversely mounted Corvette Composite Monosprings. I believe the setup is also used in several other GM models now. While the concept has been around forever, not until recently (meaning 20-30 years ago) has composite technology advanced enough to make a spring that will last virtually forever and work far better than steel leafs or coils ever could. Comparing the two technologies is like comparing apples and oranges.
Being a composite spring manufacturer, I know of very few makers of these springs for the Corvette (or any other car for that matter). Our own springs were designed by a composite engineer (Joe Bursell) back in the mid 1970s and he has continued to refine the design since then. Previously, Joe had been designing compound bows for Bear Archery. The springs we make today are actually much better than those from 20 or 30 years ago (and the old ones were pretty darn good).
Those first springs were for the rear of the C3 Corvette and the F-Body Camaro and Firebird (plus a few special military and industrial apps). Later, we manufactured different A-arms and mounts to convert these older cars to the improved Corvette type transverse system. We also took the existing GM idea a step further, giving it independently adjustable spring rate and ride height at all four corners. We have also manufactured composite springs that are resold by HyperCoil (mentioned in the above post) for several of their race applications.
The post has listed almost all of the benefits of this system; lowered CG, weight saving, energy transfer similar to a sway bar, faster reaction than steel (leafs or coils) and super long life. There are probably others I can think of later… J
The down side of transverse composite springs are few but notable; higher price, fewer choices (as costs to manufacture are very high compared to coils), not nearly as heat resistant as steel. Anything else?
I believe we will see more use of similar suspensions in the near future. Production costs will drop as the technology becomes more commonplace. Sure, the coil-over will have its place in racing, but unless I had a racecar AND a streetcar I wouldn’t want to change the coils from race to street setup nor change them every time the steel coils begin to fatigue.
Can you imagine a powerful, lightweight, hydrogen power-cell sports car in 20 (or less) years with a composite-fiber body and frame using ancient steel coil or leaf spring technology? No way… Those cars will have transverse or torsion bar composite based systems along with computer controlled shocks or dampeners of some type and variable power and braking to each wheel – all working in conjunction with feedback from the suspension. This technology is here right now – I believe it will be for sale as soon as the numbers add up for the big automakers… For what its worth, there’s my two (or three) cents…
Sincerely,
Alan G.
Vette Brakes & Products, Inc.
http://www.VBandP.com
alan@VBandP.com
800-237-9991
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...ad.php?t=64802