Trick Flow 225 on a LS2 issues
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,157
Likes: 37
From: North Carolina
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'11-'12
I was not saying that his dyno number are wrong, fact is dyno numbers vary from shop to shop, as do results between 3.42 gears (Bills Dyno) and 4.10s (my dyno).
I was not saying anything about his tuner, their capabilities or advice. I was not implying that my car was better than Bill's, but that I achieved very close to what he originally wanted at a fraction of the cost, and my power comes on faster down low where he wants to feel it. He is probably feeling that 20 or so dip in torque around 2600 rpm, and since he is only a street driver, he never really had his revs up high for very long. Bill and I are friends, we've been in each other's cars. What many reading this do not know, is that the saga of Bill's H/C job left him unhappy on many fronts ( you can search out the threads to see what I mean). His threads have shown his frustration time and time again.
He wasn't happy with the original thrust off the line, he felt the car was a dog. He added the expense of the 4.10s, and he still wasn't happy. A few months later, he posted if AFR heads would be better for him because these heads were too noisy. He was also upset at all the money he put into his car and still did not get it to perform they way HE wanted it to.
Knowing how much he liked the way my car performed even before the H/C job, I was offering another possibility where he may be able to achieve exactly what he wants, without spending another $2K or so on the "chance" he may be happy. If he could get the exact feel and performance he wants without having to spend a lot more, perhaps this was an option he could consider...that's it..nothing more.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
From: New York
St. Jude Donor '06
Thanks craig you nailed on the head. I do revisit this because after awhile it festers. I will eventually do something but with who I am still on the fence. The money is spent so no looking back and it looks like what ever I do will cost again ughhhh. More then likely it will be a cam change which I guess is the less of all evils$$$
The Trick Flows are suppose to be great heads so might as well keep them
Thanks for helping
The Trick Flows are suppose to be great heads so might as well keep them
Thanks for helping
Which is what I was suggesting.
I was not saying that his dyno number are wrong, fact is dyno numbers vary from shop to shop, as do results between 3.42 gears (Bills Dyno) and 4.10s (my dyno).
I was not saying anything about his tuner, their capabilities or advice. I was not implying that my car was better than Bill's, but that I achieved very close to what he originally wanted at a fraction of the cost, and my power comes on faster down low where he wants to feel it. He is probably feeling that 20 or so dip in torque around 2600 rpm, and since he is only a street driver, he never really had his revs up high for very long. Bill and I are friends, we've been in each other's cars. What many reading this do not know, is that the saga of Bill's H/C job left him unhappy on many fronts ( you can search out the threads to see what I mean). His threads have shown his frustration time and time again.
He wasn't happy with the original thrust off the line, he felt the car was a dog. He added the expense of the 4.10s, and he still wasn't happy. A few months later, he posted if AFR heads would be better for him because these heads were too noisy. He was also upset at all the money he put into his car and still did not get it to perform they way HE wanted it to.
Knowing how much he liked the way my car performed even before the H/C job, I was offering another possibility where he may be able to achieve exactly what he wants, without spending another $2K or so on the "chance" he may be happy. If he could get the exact feel and performance he wants without having to spend a lot more, perhaps this was an option he could consider...that's it..nothing more.
I was not saying that his dyno number are wrong, fact is dyno numbers vary from shop to shop, as do results between 3.42 gears (Bills Dyno) and 4.10s (my dyno).
I was not saying anything about his tuner, their capabilities or advice. I was not implying that my car was better than Bill's, but that I achieved very close to what he originally wanted at a fraction of the cost, and my power comes on faster down low where he wants to feel it. He is probably feeling that 20 or so dip in torque around 2600 rpm, and since he is only a street driver, he never really had his revs up high for very long. Bill and I are friends, we've been in each other's cars. What many reading this do not know, is that the saga of Bill's H/C job left him unhappy on many fronts ( you can search out the threads to see what I mean). His threads have shown his frustration time and time again.
He wasn't happy with the original thrust off the line, he felt the car was a dog. He added the expense of the 4.10s, and he still wasn't happy. A few months later, he posted if AFR heads would be better for him because these heads were too noisy. He was also upset at all the money he put into his car and still did not get it to perform they way HE wanted it to.
Knowing how much he liked the way my car performed even before the H/C job, I was offering another possibility where he may be able to achieve exactly what he wants, without spending another $2K or so on the "chance" he may be happy. If he could get the exact feel and performance he wants without having to spend a lot more, perhaps this was an option he could consider...that's it..nothing more.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
From: Louisville Kentucky
The four tubes that start at the cylinder head and finish at the collector are the primary tubes. They have a diameter and a length. It is generally believed that 1 3/4 diameter primary tubes provide better low and mid-range torque on an LS2. Also, longer primary tubes generally do the same thing, though not to the same extent. These are just general rules, assuming all else, such as collector type, is equal. Several folks have posted comparisons to illustrate this. What I was getting at is, are your primaries 1 3/4 or 1/7/8?
By the way, I have Trick Flow 225's on my LS2. They are not milled and I have the stock gasket thickness. I have a Crane 228/232, 600/600, 112, +5 cam that has what Spin descibes as "lazy lobes." I also have 1 7/8 inch header primary tubes. Each of these choices is suboptimal for torque. I also asked my tuner to cut the power from the original head/cam tune because I spun my stock tires so much that it was not fun to drive anymore. I have no A/F ratio above 12.5 in any 100 RPM cell. I don't know about the timing. I am a dummy, too!
Anyway, my dyno graph shows that we are +/-5ft lbs at 2,500 but by 3,000, I have 40 ft lbs more! I have just a little more at both 3,500 and 4,000. There seems to be something wrong for you at 3,000. We are close before and after that but you are way off at 3,000. You may want to ask the tuner about this point. I have stock 3.42's, by the way.
Also, my torque peak is at about 4,700. Yours seems to be at about 5,300. This might be due to my 112 vs your 114 and my +5 advance. What is your advance? If you have an adjustable timing chain, you might be able to advance the cam and trade some peak for a little more bottom end.
I don't think there is anything wrong with your heads.
By the way, I have Trick Flow 225's on my LS2. They are not milled and I have the stock gasket thickness. I have a Crane 228/232, 600/600, 112, +5 cam that has what Spin descibes as "lazy lobes." I also have 1 7/8 inch header primary tubes. Each of these choices is suboptimal for torque. I also asked my tuner to cut the power from the original head/cam tune because I spun my stock tires so much that it was not fun to drive anymore. I have no A/F ratio above 12.5 in any 100 RPM cell. I don't know about the timing. I am a dummy, too!
Anyway, my dyno graph shows that we are +/-5ft lbs at 2,500 but by 3,000, I have 40 ft lbs more! I have just a little more at both 3,500 and 4,000. There seems to be something wrong for you at 3,000. We are close before and after that but you are way off at 3,000. You may want to ask the tuner about this point. I have stock 3.42's, by the way.
Also, my torque peak is at about 4,700. Yours seems to be at about 5,300. This might be due to my 112 vs your 114 and my +5 advance. What is your advance? If you have an adjustable timing chain, you might be able to advance the cam and trade some peak for a little more bottom end.
I don't think there is anything wrong with your heads.
Last edited by VetteNo2; Oct 18, 2008 at 05:14 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,762
Likes: 4
From: Chandler Arizona
You kind of missed the point....Craigs car spins the tires in 3 gears. What I'm saying is Bill's car does not move like a 460rwhp car. I thought hoffies car at 425rwhp was way stronger.
I never posted a dyno sheet of any of my builds but the results on Craig's car are confirmed when you drive it. If you drove Bill's car, you wouldnt think it had a 2500 dollar set of heads (plus the 400 for the rocker arms to use them). While I dont think the L92's are the be-all, they are cheap. Complete with valves and springs they were about 875 bucks for the pair with a 228 cam, not 3k for a trick flow set of heads. If the cost was set aside, the trick flow heads are far beyond the L92's in performance and you dont need to flycut.
Maybe Bill should jujst drive Craig's car and then he will know for himself what 460rwhp feels like.
A last note: Craigs numbers were throught 4.10 gears and Bill's dyno sheet was through 3.42's. The 4.10's were added after the complaints about the power level were relayed to the tuner. 4.10 gears and same dyno would take the usual 10-12 off the peak HP and 8-10 off the TQ making it 443hp and 407rwtq? Maybe thats the issue
In the tuner's defense Bill asked for a mild set-up, so telling the tuner there isnt enough power coupled with having asked for a cam with certain driving manners isnt so fair either. That tuner has built sick cars and has 2 of the most crafted mechanics (GMcertified too) that there are. They can definitely build a fast car. Ithink these after the fact comments are clashing with the initial requests made of them.
Please do not think i am comparing any results from my builds to this one. It was craig who posted a dyno for his car and not me posting them for any of my builds. Mine has higher number results through 4.10's with the same cam and heads but I'm not posting it because like the last time i tried to help with this exact same car, it became a Spin hate post. Bill asked me for my opinion and got it. Any other correspondence on this topic will be ignored by me because of the nasty grams I'm getting.
I never posted a dyno sheet of any of my builds but the results on Craig's car are confirmed when you drive it. If you drove Bill's car, you wouldnt think it had a 2500 dollar set of heads (plus the 400 for the rocker arms to use them). While I dont think the L92's are the be-all, they are cheap. Complete with valves and springs they were about 875 bucks for the pair with a 228 cam, not 3k for a trick flow set of heads. If the cost was set aside, the trick flow heads are far beyond the L92's in performance and you dont need to flycut.
Maybe Bill should jujst drive Craig's car and then he will know for himself what 460rwhp feels like.
A last note: Craigs numbers were throught 4.10 gears and Bill's dyno sheet was through 3.42's. The 4.10's were added after the complaints about the power level were relayed to the tuner. 4.10 gears and same dyno would take the usual 10-12 off the peak HP and 8-10 off the TQ making it 443hp and 407rwtq? Maybe thats the issue
In the tuner's defense Bill asked for a mild set-up, so telling the tuner there isnt enough power coupled with having asked for a cam with certain driving manners isnt so fair either. That tuner has built sick cars and has 2 of the most crafted mechanics (GMcertified too) that there are. They can definitely build a fast car. Ithink these after the fact comments are clashing with the initial requests made of them.
Please do not think i am comparing any results from my builds to this one. It was craig who posted a dyno for his car and not me posting them for any of my builds. Mine has higher number results through 4.10's with the same cam and heads but I'm not posting it because like the last time i tried to help with this exact same car, it became a Spin hate post. Bill asked me for my opinion and got it. Any other correspondence on this topic will be ignored by me because of the nasty grams I'm getting.
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 78
From: Miami FL
2020 C6 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16,'17,'18-'19-'20-'21-'22
. . .some people would read the torque from the left side of the graph when on the right it was a different scale (50 lower). That always confuses . . . .
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,157
Likes: 37
From: North Carolina
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'11-'12
Spin, this wasn't really aimed at you. I was just pointing out that some people (including myself at first) would read the torque from the left side of the graph when on the right it was a different scale (50 lower). That always confuses me. Plus I wanted to make sure that Bill realized that his torque numbers are actually a little better than Craig's. The big difference with Craig's car is the 4.11 gears which really helps the car tremendously. I agree with your assessment, there are a number of ways to improve Bill's car, but the obvious one to me is to put in gears if he wants to match Craig's car "feel."
Last edited by Craigster05; Oct 17, 2008 at 04:17 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,762
Likes: 4
From: Chandler Arizona
That's part of the problem, Glenn. Bill already has spent another $2800 to have the 4.10s installed after that dyno chart he posted, and he is still unhappy with the performance. I know it's controversial, but there seems to be a dyno loss of about 10 RWHP/RWTQ when dynoing the same car back to back on the same dyno with a 3.42 to 4.10 gear swap. It would mean that I have a little more torque and power, but it's much more linear and predictable in my car than Bill's. He's got plenty of power, but not feeling it until after 4K, then it comes on in a rush. He really is looking for that head snap at 2k when he gooses the throttle, and it's simply not there. Guy is not exaggerating when he says the car has trouble breaking the tires loose. Those Trick Flows are state of the art, but knowing how particular Bill feels about certain aspects of the car, I personally think if he cams it to match, he will not be happy with the lope or sound. Really, Bill's perfect combo would be a stock motor with FI...but thinking about saving him money negates that option.
However, I don't feel sorry for Bill if his forum name is correct. If all he ever gets is par 3's, 4's, and 5's, he's a heck of a golfer!
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,762
Likes: 4
From: Chandler Arizona
Bill, look me up if you are ever in Arizona and we'll hit the links. I always have a spare set of right handed clubs for anyone that stops by. And an extra putter for you Craig!
I really like this forum. All this discussion and everyone always had a very level head. Just trying to help out the OP with his car. There are a bunch of very generous people on this forum!!!
And an extra putter for you Craig!I really like this forum. All this discussion and everyone always had a very level head. Just trying to help out the OP with his car. There are a bunch of very generous people on this forum!!!
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
From: New York
St. Jude Donor '06
funny we go back and forth and still do not know what to do........I think I will go back and see if I can adjust the tune for alittle more low end and get another dyno sheet> If the car dynos as it did then I will see whats next...I will stick with who I started Vette doctors they are local and as spin said they can build awesome cars.
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
From: League City Texas
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
interesting read
I also have Trick flow 225's with 4:10's but with a mid 240's cam. I also don't feel much power till after 4K rpms actually the car starts to break traction at 5200 rpms. I am not complaining because I don't have traction issues. However I thought i would. I am no expert and I am very happy with my car. I have a manuel and if I make it break traction then I can not react fast enough before it hits the rev limiter. What gets me is from a roll my car very seldom breaks the tires loose.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,157
Likes: 37
From: North Carolina
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'11-'12
You know, that's probably the biggest problem facing tuners, we all want something that fits "our idea" of how the car should go, sound and feel. Unless we get lucky enough to ride in a car that has the exact feel we are looking for, it's a hit and miss that can quickly become costly. Add in everyone's personal tolerance, and the mix gets tricky, and often the tuner gets the blame for not delivering. I know personally, I usually find what I want be first having to experience EXACTLY what I DO NOT want. Bill will get it sorted out, he has a great tuner in his corner.
What would be an amazing tool, is if someone could make a very accurate simulator for the PC, PS3, Xbox etc that would allow you a driving simulation of road, 1/4 mile highway conditions to see exactly how mods would work by imputing the exact characteristics of your car. You would think with all the car simulators out there now, it could be done.....and whoever does will make a boat load of money for sure.
What would be an amazing tool, is if someone could make a very accurate simulator for the PC, PS3, Xbox etc that would allow you a driving simulation of road, 1/4 mile highway conditions to see exactly how mods would work by imputing the exact characteristics of your car. You would think with all the car simulators out there now, it could be done.....and whoever does will make a boat load of money for sure.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
...... Unless we get lucky enough to ride in a car that has the exact feel we are looking for, it's a hit and miss that can quickly become costly. ......... I know personally, I usually find what I want be first having to experience EXACTLY what I DO NOT want. Bill will get it sorted out, he has a great tuner in his corner.
I would bet you would be ready for my newer cam now. Its only 2 degrees more and will lope slightly more yet have more power everywhere under the curve. Want to see 480rwhp? Did I say its free?
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,157
Likes: 37
From: North Carolina
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'11-'12
I remember you riding in my car and telling me it was too aggressive. You wanted a smaller cam. I wound up installing the exact same package in your car with more compression to smooth it out to be like stock and now you tell me you want more lope.....
I would bet you would be ready for my newer cam now. Its only 2 degrees more and will lope slightly more yet have more power everywhere under the curve. Want to see 480rwhp? Did I say its free?
I would bet you would be ready for my newer cam now. Its only 2 degrees more and will lope slightly more yet have more power everywhere under the curve. Want to see 480rwhp? Did I say its free?
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
From: New York
St. Jude Donor '06
I also have Trick flow 225's with 4:10's but with a mid 240's cam. I also don't feel much power till after 4K rpms actually the car starts to break traction at 5200 rpms. I am not complaining because I don't have traction issues. However I thought i would. I am no expert and I am very happy with my car. I have a manuel and if I make it break traction then I can not react fast enough before it hits the rev limiter. What gets me is from a roll my car very seldom breaks the tires loose.
I have alot of friends with cars that smoke tires and I constantly hear them come back from a race that they didn't hook up etc... of course when they lost the reasons fly but its true. My car now breaks the tires with the 410's but only for a short priod of time and then launches as you said it roars in the higher rpms's i will see if Vette Doctors can give me alittle more low rpm power and maybe put some money in the bank
Racer
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 327
Likes: 12
From: Carlsbad California
I went from AFR 205 heads (62 cc) to LS3 heads, and also changed out my cam to a less aggressive but more Blower friendly Stage 2 from A&A. The results were higher peak HP, but a definitive loss of HP and TQ at lower RPMs. I then bit the bullet and went from a P1 to a D1, and also opted for Andy's 8 rib assembly to compensate. I now have the low end performance I was looking for, notwithstanding the fact that I have a centrifugal blower versus a roots type.
If I had it all to do over again, given that I am more interested in low end performance, I would have just went with a Maggie from the get-go.
However, what's done is done, and I am very happy with my Vette's performance now (but I do think a Stage 3 Blower cam would have better suited my current set up versus the Stage 2).
If I had it all to do over again, given that I am more interested in low end performance, I would have just went with a Maggie from the get-go.
However, what's done is done, and I am very happy with my Vette's performance now (but I do think a Stage 3 Blower cam would have better suited my current set up versus the Stage 2).
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,762
Likes: 4
From: Chandler Arizona
Bill, I think you should still take the car to that other close tuner even though his dyno reportedly shows high numbers. If thats the case and you dyno LESS there, say 440rwhp, then you know the first dyno sheet is not reflecting your car's true power. The dyno reporting higher numbers still gives you an idea since a lower number on a higher dyno is much lower than the first dyno sheet.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 867
Likes: 0
From: New York
St. Jude Donor '06
Bill, I think you should still take the car to that other close tuner even though his dyno reportedly shows high numbers. If thats the case and you dyno LESS there, say 440rwhp, then you know the first dyno sheet is not reflecting your car's true power. The dyno reporting higher numbers still gives you an idea since a lower number on a higher dyno is much lower than the first dyno sheet.
410 gears. how much lower do 410 take away
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,597
Likes: 3
From: READING PA
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
indication loss on a 500 rwhp car . They give you so much performance
otherwise. The good folks on CF will help you achieve acceptable results
and you will be happy.
