[QUOTE=5 Liter Eater;1568077064]My opinion is blown. My car had a big NA cam in it along with the headers and exhaust when I got it (and nitrous). Took the nitrous out right away, I have run it before in my C5 and it's a hassle. It made right around 400 RW with the big lopey NA cam. It was noisy and lacked drivability. Now it makes >600 with the mods listed in my signature. Unless I'm on it you can barely tell it's not stock.

I have done NA, N2O, roots blower (on an Integra), turbo (on a Civic) and centrifugal blower (on both my old C5 and now my C6). Turbo would be my first pick of power adder but it's pretty intrusive on a Y-Body. My next choice would be centrifugal blower.

[/QUOT

I can relate..had a 68 camaro a few years back with bal/blprntd 396 that made about 500hp and got looks everywhere cause it sounded like a beast, but could never enjoy driving it unless it was wot

So far, I think this is the way I will go..centri blower and blower cam with xhaust and suspension upgrades..later on maybe a forged motor and crank up the boost!!!

One question though...Since I have virtually no experience with blowers, Is there a way to get that great driveability like this and still sound like its got some muscle???

 

[QUOTE=ChopShop1;1568078320]A blower cam, LT headers, no cats will give you a race car sound at WOT, but it won't give you the lope of a big h/c package or stroker motor.

 

Run exhaust cutouts and lower your idle to ~500 RPM.

 

As much as I love being blown :o I'm keeping my C6 n/a. Last two cars were supercharged, a centrifugal blower and a roots blower. So one with high end power, the other massive torque throughout the RPM range. Wouldn't mind trying a turbo but for now, it's n/a power.

 

Which blower came out on top for you?? Which did you feel like was a more fun and just flat out fast street car??

 

I like the centris better. The power on a roots blower comes on so soon that you don't feel the constant acceleration like you do with a centri. On a centri more RPM = more boost so it is constantly pinning you to the seat. The roots just feel flat once you get going.

 

While it is not all encompassing, I suggest you take a look at the thread
"Dispelling some Myths: HP and Torque for Stock, Blown and Heads/Cam cars." I made 2 months ago... I basically asked the question: How do the actual torque and horsepower curves for a bolt ons, a heads/cam, and a supercharged car compare? Everybody knows that given enough boost, a supercharged engine will make more power than any heads/cam setup could ever hope to achieve by remaining naturally aspirated. But still, H/C setups remain popular, and some claim that a N/A engine is more responsive and makes beter low end torque than a supercharged one, particularly if the supercharger used is the centrifugal type.

What I found was that, for the same displacement, no heads and cam setup made more torque or horsepower anywhere in its power curve than even a mild supercharged setup. In fact, all the heads/cam setups I looked at made less torque below 3000rpm than an otherwise stock engine running full bolt ons and a tune. This makes sense when you consider than a more agressive camshaft works by shifting where the engine makes peak volumetric efficiency: I.E. they make more power by moving the torque peak up; consequently this costs bottom end torque. Remember, when OEM manufacturers are designing a more powerful engine, they don't sit around and ask: "what is the biggest cam we can possibly stick in there?" They up displacement, they add boost, or they improve volumetric efficiency as a whole.

Superchargers are not for everyone, much less centrifugals... If you road race in hot weather your car may overheat. If you want run flat tires you won't get traction untill you are at least driving over the speed limit. That said, if you want big power, this is the easiest, cheapest and quickest way of getting it. I spent $5300 on an A&A kit, installed it myself over 30 hours using hand tools and jackstands, and 4 days later watched my car turn the rollers on the dyno to the tune of 597WHP / 518RWTQ on straight up pump gas; no meth, no nitrous, no gimmicks. Drivability is FLAWLESS. I daily drive it, rain, shine, or even snow; it never surges, never does anything odd or unpredictable; if I had the radio on, you would never even guess there was something not stock under the hood. And the power... Is everything I hoped for and then some: I still laugh out loud every time I get on the gas

 

Good exercise here. I know there's value in doing it yourself. Where do you value your car (as a starting point) vs a similar conditioned Z06?

I think you'd need to do 6 to $8K in engine upgrades to come close to Z06 performance and drivability. If you want to get Z06 reliabiltiy and durability, you'll need to upgrade more on the drivetrain (add another couple of $k). Wide body with tires and wheels can easily be 4 to $6k. Brakes 1 to $2k. Add coil overs and you're up another couple thousand. You're not far from what it would cost to trade your car for a Z06.

I know that Z06 power numbers aren't that hard to reach. I'm there with my setup. But, when you factor in durability and ability to go around a curve at speed, I'm a long ways away from Z06 territory. Regardless, it's a fun quest. Good luck with it.

 

The only downside to the blower engine (speaking of the centri's here) is the weight hanging off the front of the car. I followed Rock'n Blue when we swapped mufflers. His car scraped everywhere, almost every intersection. I did not touch once. That would be really annoying. I suggested he change out the front spring to a Z51. I would think that weight imbalance would effect the handling of the car to a degree. The cool part was hearing the whistle of the blower as he went through the gears.(not the box of rocks that identifies a procharger set up) I was behind him in normal traffic and you could hear the blower. Definitely not a sleeper..

 

If you are going to a road course, NA all the way. Otherwise FI is great.

 

S/C is the easiest way to achieve your high horsepower goals. You will not reach 550rwhp on an NA stock cube LS2. I'm H/C making 485rwhp thru 4.10s so figure me close to 500rwhp. Still 50rwhp short of your goal. A H/C stroker can get you there or close but at a higher price than a S/C kit. You can certainly have a H/C engine that is completely street friendly with no driveability issues. However it has nowhere near the class of a S/C build. S/C cars typically drive like stock, smooth and classy until you want to unleash the power. Short of some slight whining from the blower, it's almost undetectable. A built H/C car is going to have a hard time sneaking up on anyone. It completely changes the manners of the car. Not necessarily in a bad way but it is something you should experience before dumping thousands of dollars into your build. The S/C is also easily reversible if you change your mind down the road. Returning a H/C car back to stock is a little more involved. Both will transform your car into a tire melting monster. They just do it in different ways. I have reservations with throwing boost at a cast piston engine. Even though there are hundreds of trouble free builds out there. I personally love NA Vettes. I know I will never reach the power numbers a FI build does, but I've accepted that and this is just my preferance. Try and get rides in both to see what you like. Ultimately however I think a S/C will better fit your needs.

 

evil fast = forced induction

 

So much great info here!!!

Powerlabs..I always enjoy your posts, they are well educated and very informative

To 5 liter eater, kobun, and all others, thanks as well for the great info!!

atx47--you said esactly what I needed to hear...EVIL FAST!!!

It looks like this will be the road I go---ECS or A&A supercharger system...It seems as these two, among others all run pretty equal in power andquality..

Thanks again to all who contributed, your experience could have saved me Thousands$$$ and helped me find what I am looking for..
On a side note, anyone in the CT area with a centri blown c6???

 

You are forgetting that in order to clear the intercooler outlet, the supercharger installation moves the entire radiator bracket 1 inch closer to the ground; that is responsible for most of the scraping since the rubber airdam attaches to that bracket. The front of my Z51 car dropped some too; I trimmed a little bit of the airdam and raised the front back up to factory ride spec via the stock bolts and now my car has the exact same ground clearance it came from GM with.
Weight wise... Yes, it does add weight, and it adds it at the worse possible place. But lets look at how much is added:

The complete supercharger kit, according to A&A, weights 75lbs. I think that's a fair estimate.
To install it, I had to remove the idler pulley, the intake, the radiator shroud and the top and bottom radiator support. That's an easy 10-15lbs. Then take into account the fact that I removed the factory cast iron exaust manifolds and massive factory catalytic converters and replaced them for stainless steel tubular headers and 2 compact high flow cats located behind the front axle and that's another 20lbs removed right there. All in all I have maybe 40lbs additional weight up front from what the factory intended. If/when I remove my battery (25lbs) and relocate it to the trunk, the weight balance will be right back where it was to begin with, if not slightly shifted to the rear.
Then I can shave another 15lbs from the front by installing a lightweight flywheel and a lighter clutch, and make the car's mass more rear biased.
And that's not even taking into account unsprung mass reduction; the non run flats I run remove 22lbs of rotating mass, and when I get 2 piece brake rotors there goes another 12 or so. With the right mods you can have a supercharged car with less weight and better balance than a factory vehicle, without having to remove any sound deadening or sacrifice any of the comforts.

Finally, lets assume just for the sake of argument that we removed nothing from the car and instead just added 75lbs to the front. 75lbs in a 3300lbs car (assuming vehicle + driver + fluids and fuel here) represents a weight increase of 2.27%. Maybe a professional driver on a race track could detect the slight increase in understeer that would theoretically create, but I am going to guess that the 35% increase in horsepower will do more for your track times than those 2.27% additional pounds up front, and if it causes understeer, a bump up in the rear tire pressure by a few PSI will return the balance. If it still wants to understeer, give it gas; the back end WILL come around. At any speed

 

The problem with all inclusive summaries as your's is here is it always makes some generalization or assumption to base the entire argument on.

When you add a centrif s/c you are definitely muting your off boost performance. When someone is selling you on a dyno sheet here is the generalization: Dyno sheets comparing low end performance are ALWAYS WOT comparisons. No duh, the car makes more power even at 3k performance. The WOT numbers are taken with your blow off valve closed and making boost but when you drive your car on the street, its not floored 95% of the time and the boost guage is reading vacume. When I make a turn at some street intersection or pass on the hiway, it feels like I lost much TQ because the s/c is dragging the power down while the boost is blowing out the BOV. As I accelerate from a stop light or accelerate out of a turn there is no boost being made and the car feels like it lost 50hp.

N/A is way more responsive than a blower car. When it closes the BOV it is better at every rpm but thats when youre down on the gas pedal which isnt how you drive 95% of the time. You didnt have a H/C car before the install and were stock. You were offered the opportunity to experience this because I warned you about it before you made the decision. You didnt drive a max effort h/c car because if you did you wouldnt be talking about dyno sheets at WOT when the difference at 25% throttle is staggering.

DYNO sheets for blower cars may as well be for nitrous. You floor it and thats the max it does. If you scan with seeing how 1/3 throttle does power-wise, you will see that the car is likely making 50hp less and you can feel it. Mild roll-ins on the throttle to pass just dont have the sense of immediacy and lost its TQ jump. Sudden blips of the gas pedal on a centrif car feel like a 6cyl engine compared to a high compression H/C motor.

Get a stroker to avoid this or , but do not ever think that a max effort h/c car with gears is in any way being equaled at part throttle by a centrif. Strokers have the thrrottle response of a motorcycle and blipping the throttle will make yur head jump back, the same slit second blip on a centrif car doesnt even make the rpm's jump. Its muted and has a nearly full second delay between touching the throttle and seeing the response. If its a split second throttle blip the rpms never react. Try that with a 403 stroker and your neck will shoot back. This isnt an exaggeration.

Aside from that, its a ride and a half. I love the new power but the one thing I need is to get this BOV to close with less throttle. I dont know much about this power adder but to say its just not lively as you pull out of a parking spot or pass someone on the highway. Get it for what it is meant to do, make you insanely fast at WOT without having to keep filling up the nitrous bottle but dont ever fool yourself into thinking it has the response of a H/C car or a stroker. Its nowhere near that kind of responsivness.

Now Ainqik has a storker and his car does have great throttle response. He has a much more instantaneous response than my car has. He started life with 70more rwtq at 3k rpms before the s/c so it isnt killing his car off boost.

I am getting a forged stroker to restore that.

As for the above statement highlighted....slow down there champ. Since when did HP from H/C ever need to be in the S/C camp to break into the 10's? H/C cars need mid 400's to be a 10 sec car at a drag track. I have seen so many 460rwhp H/C cars run 10.8's I am dizzy. You show me ONE 460rwhp or infact ONE 500rwhp S/C car running a 10.8. Stop dyno sheet racing. When you have 600rwhp, yes your car is faster than a H/C car but to date not one of my H/C/geared cars has ever lost to a base s/c kit running stock gears. I think you need to get to the track and see your run wth your current power level before quoting what FI cars do on dyno's because when you match the power HP for HP, the H/C cars are 10 sec cars and the s/c cars are still in the 11's if that.

Example: Ed C6dvl's car ran a 10.66 at 132 with 525rwhp. Now you show me a 525rwhp S/C car that ran a 10.66....not 600rwhp...not 800rwhp....find the FI 525rwhp car running a 10.66. There isnt one.

I would race any 600rwhp FI car when I was at sea level and never once did I lose. I like the power I have from the S/C now and at this altitude, I have no choice. I just dont want people thinking its all ups and no downside. If I was at sea level I would get an LSX block since the weight is not so noticeable and I would be running a 440Ci with a nitrous shot. I have what I have now and can say its a lot of fun. There is no way you can say that a kit like ECS's paxton isnt the best bang for the buck. You would be far higher in cost with a super stroker and nitrous to match this performance. Just know it has a downside with the off-boost times.

 

I never experienced a problem like this at part throttle. With normal driving I will see boost. At times enough to activate my alky at 3psi depending when I shift. There is a slight delay between throttle and boost but not enough to be a problem on the street.

 

Now this makes me question it all over again

I am not as knowledgable as some of you so I hear one thing and it sound right, then I hear another and it too sounds right..Then I get confused.

So SPIN..If I want a "king of the street" type car with good manners and violent speed/acceleration then you think a forged stroker, higher comp, h/c car is the trick..Here's what I question..I am not a track guy, but will drive mostly on the streets(i don't wanna run 17s with D/Radials and just be good in 1/4 mile...does the same logic still apply??

 

I didnt say it was a 'problem' I just dont think the biggest advantage to a high compression H/C or stroker should be minimized.

What H/C package do you have? Or are you comparing stock to stock plus S/C? I will agree that stock has none of the throttle respnse of a H/C car.

Stock isnt a H/C car nor does it have the advantages of a high compression H/C car and it doesnt serve as a comparison to what the OP is asking about. Until you drive a max-effort H/C car I suggest simply that people dont go by dyno sheets to make the decsion. If all you care about is WOT then get the S/C. If you drive a 500rwhp H/C car I think the decision isnt going to be so easy especially if you are only driving on the street with street tires. 100hp more makes you slower on a street tire from 0-80.

You never had the throttle resonse of such a package so I dont see how you would see it missing. You cant have high compression and a high power S/C. You have 577rwhp and 540 rwtq so I doubt yuou have traction and if you run street tires you arent doing any better in a straight line than a car like C6DVL's.

Find someone with a 12:1 stroker and 550rwhp and compare your throttle resonse to that car. You wont be thinking its the same or even close. You will also think its a lot faster than your car from mid point rpm's.

 

With a street car and 480rwhp (great mannered H/C car) you will break street tires loose at anything under 70mph so adding 100 more at peak isnt going to make you faster. I run a r-compound on the street so I can use so muchmore but even a MT on an 18 will not hold 700rwhp.

I never lost to any FI car that ran a street tire with my H/C geared car when I was at sea level.

The best advice is to drive both. The S/C car pulls harder. The H/C car pulls more evenly without breaking tires loose. If you want power and a dnyo sheet, choosing the car that wins because it doesnt break traction may not be for you.

 

I think you are correct...I am by no means looking for a car that will win "dyno races"..I build super high performance motocycle engines and am very familiar with the difference between a big number on a dyno and a functional powerband...I think you are also right that I need to get in both vehicles before i decide...now I just need to find them locally in CT..

As a side note, I do plan to run an R compound and a drivetrain that can hadle big power hooking up..Just curious if that makes any difference?? Thanks again...your advice helped me choose a car and no hopefully it will help to make that car what I want!