Originally Posted by SpinMonster

Haha, you opened a bigger can of whoop there.

The C5's H/C record is even faster with less power. The 10.56 @ 130.5 was done by Cartek with a little 228 cam and it only made 456rwhp!

Everyone remembers the LG run that day that also did about the same ET and Trap speed.

Phil Thomas running in a heavier Coupe ran a 10.66 using a 230 cam on a home brew H/C install. (Phil97svt). It wasnt even a tuner car. It ran TEA 5.3 liter heads.

Anyway, one thing for sure, ECS does have one of the best H/C packages in town so everyone should know where to go for N/A or FI. If its FI, the restrictor plate kit is the best chance you have of being as fast with a base kit. I fully endorse that kit and I own it. Mad TQ down low people....TQ wins races.

Originally Posted by SpinMonster

Why is it so hard to accept that FI needs more power to accomplish the same result?

Originally Posted by Mike69

Originally Posted by SpinMonster

I was making a HP comparison and it makes little difference since as you ALWAYS point out, your car makes more HP and TQ than even an N/A stroker at all RPM's.

Trap speed doesnt change That depends on tractionas you change tires or gears, ET does. C6Dvl running a slipping clutch and dead BFG tires ran a 11.8 at 128 and then a 10.8 at 128 when he changed to new tires and a new clutch. If you ran slicks or any tires you would trap the same. Trap speed for anyone in the know on drag racing is a true reading of the car's average output power.That's assuming the car is driven well esp with a 6speed.

So when I say a little 6 liter such as Dennis' 2005 A4 running a 130 trap speed or a 6 liter such as Brachiole's 520rwhp LS2 running a 134 trap speed at that low power compared to your car's 590rwhp+....its still slower than the trap speeds of these N/A cars by HP. Powerlabs car should trap ~135+mph under the same track conditions those n/a cars had assuming he has a well tuned setup. You should be at 139 like a 600rwhp stroker that runs 139 trap speeds if HP is HP. You did point out that your kit makes more HP and TQ when stroker dyno sheets were shown. The a6 in my fist post was driven by Doug with ECS' drag radials so I would think its pretty optimum. It was 660rwhp on an A6 compared to Subfloors sub 600rwhp car running 5mph faster. Apples to apples?

Again, since you ignored it, the big cam drivability BS you are saying is 100% false. The current cam only LS3 AndrewZu has trapped 130+ with just a cam and he has a full weight car. Its a 230 cam and runs like stock with zero 'big cam issues' as you say. He has no ported intake or TB and no UD pulley. Its a 1500 dollar mod plus a set of headers. This is 0-130mph in 11.2 seconds for a cam without heads. The current LS2 record cam only is also 130mph (Dennis) and the current LS2 C6 record (thats LS2) is brachiole's H/C car running 134mph at 520rwhp. Number 2 on the LS2 C6 is also a H/C LS2 also at 134mph. The two fastest LS3's are Cartek and C6Dvl (ECS) at 132. The point is HP for HP N/A is faster. Trap speeds tell the same story regardless of tire and in fact, MPH is actually HIGHER if you dont hook.Not always

I can go on with stroker numbers (also N/A) to show that 600rwhp makes 140 trap speeds from N/A and I have never seen that from 600rwhp on an FI car.....not even a turbo car.It's possible I think for a turbo car 650rwhp was close.

I also dont hear much from the H/C crew about cracked pistons or fuel system issues. Its very rare compared to the FI section where the number one reason for a stroker is a blown motor.

Anyway, you werent singled out, I was using you as one of 8 cars in the comparison.

A tuner's position on the facts:

Originally Posted by SpinMonster

It depends entirely on what you will use the car for. The best indicator of true power you will see in real driving will include the off boost rpm’s and shift boost pressure losses.

Recent results for N/A vs FI at the track for trap speeds indicates that you need more FI HP to hit the same trap speed that an N/A car sees.

Example 1:
The four top N/A head cam cars all see 132-134 trap speeds all having less than 525rwhp. Powerlabs with a base kit comparable to what you get for the same cost of install has 600rwhp and ran a 129 trap speed.Don't forget the details! Those cars all ran in great air on a rental day with good drivers who are into drag racing with experienced people around helping them out on every pass if necessary. Powerlabs probably has never been to a rental and drove his car all out. 129mph is respectable for his experience level.

Example 2:
ECS ran an A6 with 660rwhp to get a 10.4 ET with a 134 trap speed. Subfloor running an N/A LS7 on his A6 ran a 9.95 @ 139mph trap speed.Subfloor was driving his car he has been racing and tuning for a long time. It's geared toward the 1/4 mile and has (i'm sure) some tricks of the trade. It also has a transplanted motor designed very well,a well thought out setup with drag racing experience, Carlos to back him, and likely skinnies and some other drag advantages. Doug often just takes his customers cars to the strip because they request a timelslip. Most of the cars aren't even prepared for the drag strip and if it was at a streetnight at Etown then I can tell you the track sux. Details are left out.

While you do get more in gear HP more usable for high speed roll-on races, IAT and boost pressure losses detract from overall average HP in a multi-gear run. This results in needing more HP to accomplish the same 0-132 mph run compared to the power needed of an N/A run to the same speed from a stand still.

You can raise the power of an FI car more readily to make up this difference but then the stock cam would be out and you will need to add the cost of that and meth injection to the base kit’s cost.

Some other points to think about is that at 10psi on a base kit without meth injection, you are going to need a new engine if anything happens to the fuel system’s boost a pump or if you get a bad tank of gas. Powerlabs is looking for a new engine now due to this. N/A cars are much safer to run and there is much less chance of engine damage compared to FI. Driveability is the most exaggerated of all aspects of N/A cars. The best H/C packages do not have bucking and surging. I was in C6DVL’s car at 525rwhp mnentioned above and it was fully comfortable for daily driving. Guys who over cam with a poor tune suffer this. 700rwhp FI cars are going to be running a cam.

I have both on my car and love FI. I just disagree as to the order they should be done in. Most base kit cars that didn’t regear or swap the cam don’t have a chance against the fastest H/C tuner packages. I base this statement on the track results posted in this thread.

If your thing is 3rd and 4th gear roll-on races to 150mph, get the FI set-up. If you want to be fastest 0-130, get a tuner H/C package. If anyone has a 132 trap speed with a base kit, please post it for others to have the data point.

Originally Posted by LSCHLEM

WOW that Torque curve looks interesting. I hope we are not loosing perspective here as we are comparing a FI BASE UNIT VS fully optimized H&C. Its hard to believe the MAGGIE only gets to 475 RWHP / 435rwtq.
Most units I've seen have no trouble getting to 500+. The MAGGIE does look better w the s/c hood but if we are talking about numbers ECS, VORTEC turbo type systems do make more than the Maggie all the way around.

Originally Posted by robz

Agreed, but it's not that as/c car can't run fast at the drag strip.

N/a 6 speed cars with equal hp have performed better for many reasons.

-Typically they are a little bit easier to drive and the loss of boost on the shifts will hurt the inexperienced driver/ builder.

-We have had alot of 6 speed guys running together helping each other for years which allowed for a trend to exist.

-The way the power comes on esp on the launch with a 6 speed s/c car can often result in lifting for people who are learning and just never spend enough time to figure it out.

I don't believe it takes 100 more rwhp for a 6 speed S/C ls1/ls2/ls6/ls7 to achieve the same times as an n/a car. It does take more practice.
The mph should be within a few mph of each other considering equal hp under the curve if driven/setup correctly.

I see people making general statements but the real truth is in the specifics and details.
Youn must compare weights of the cars, tires, driver experience, 60',weather, and many other details.

Originally Posted by robz

If these base kits are making 550rwhp from a reputable shop and better and not trapping 132 mph then the cars not being driven right.

I've seen alot of S/C vettes trapp big mph but never post about it because either they don't care to or because they were hoping for a better et.

Originally Posted by knkali

Good point on that maggie output on that graph. It does seem very low on peak #s

Originally Posted by Rock'n Blue 08

Are they not different intercoolers along with the placement?
Along with right or left handed inlet. There's a difference! Between them don't kid me ! Ask Andy who know this and tests his intercooler and has made many,many changes for this reason! Even between the A&A set-up's
Along solid pipe set-ups such as mine. Doesn't heat up
much at all!
Sorry Doug No slam intended on ECS. It's just that Spin is commenting on what a
A&A intercooler does. When he doesn't have one.

My old 578 and 530 tq is old by the way. Done a few mods since then.
Plus I have a set of M&H's I put on from time to time!

Originally Posted by PowerLabs

F1 cars rev high because they are displacement limited. With a limited displacement and no forced induction there is a very finite amount of torque any engine (even a million dollar F1 engine) can ever make. Since power = Torque * RPM / 5252, the only way they can make more power is by reving higher.
Superchargers are belt driven and therefore, by definition, have no "lag". Turbos lag because the compressor is spun by an exhaust driven turbine which only receives energy when the throttle is open; when a turbo car goes full throttle, it takes time for the turbine to get up to speed and the compressor to start making boost and that time is what is commonly called "turbo lag".

Originally Posted by Mike69

We often get maggies to go over 500rw... but on the base kit, no headers, no meth, no pullies.... this is about average. There will be some a little higher, some a little lower for both packages on the chart.... if you have another set up you'd like to compare it too..post it up or email the graph to me... I'm sure I can pull something here that will match up to it.

The most telling thing to me about the graphs is that - go out and do a pull in your own car... doesnt matter if it's auto or 6 speed.... note the the shift recovery point (rpm right after the car shifts)... then compare it to the chart... when you see that, you'll see why our kit puts lengths (sometimes multiple)on most of the other kits in the market...

Originally Posted by SpinMonster

If thats the case, its apparent that lesser drivers will likely do better with a H/C car. yes IMO

If these big trapping S/C cars have anything more done to them than a BASE KIT then it doesnt apply to what I'm talking about. This is about BASE KITS only as per the oP's original question.

Once you go beyond that, I'm with you and FI cant be touched with what a H/C car can do.

I think you would be better served with the H/C set-up first with it being optimized for FI use since all super fast FI cars use a H/C install.

Originally Posted by SpinMonster

It seems this keeps comming full circle with the incorrect info comming from people who keep misquoting me and skipping through posts too fast. If you think any of the comparisons have unequal drivers and set-ups please post the differences. These cars were all run as they run in daily life. Your first line above tells the story. I am posting specificalls about a BASE KIT car not a meth injected, cammed, pullied down monster like Mr Big's car.

This thread was about a BASE S/C kit vs a H/C install of the same cost. It isnt about FI cars with all the bells and wistles.

That said, I posted factual track runs showing that a performance difference was noted, not just by me but by two other NE tuners.

Their position is that
1-You need more power N/A to acheive the same run. Max at Cartek posted this and his experiences.

2-Doug at ECS posted the same and offered IAT's as the reason

3-Sam posted factual data logged from his car showing a massive reduction in timing from these IAT's.

I am well aware that all of these things can be addressed and FI IS WAY FASTER ONCE YOU DO THAT, but these fixes such as meth injection, 8 rib smaller pulleys, along with a cam swap ARE NOT INCLUDED IN A BASE KIT and the OP wanted to know about A BASE KIT vs H/C.

What I highlighted above in blue, I fully disagree with. Tuners themseves disagree with it.

Doug driving an A6 with 660rwhp that traps 134 at ATCO isnt helping your position that experienced drivers with practice can get the MPH up. I think that represents what a base kit can do. Meth will help a lot but its not in the base kit. Nor is an 8 rib pulley kit. Nor is a cam.

Originally Posted by Fore58

Same day dyno: My car, L92/L76 224/228 cam 440/405. LS3 MN6 Base S/C 480rwhp....can't remember the torque. The same car in Texas dynoed 515 rwhp. Go figure!