Originally Posted by jxhunte

I know I'm not alone when I say I find this thread very entertaining and at the same time a valuable learning experience. Thanks for the great mix of information which is helping me define the modification path I will follow.

Originally Posted by SpinMonster

Sam its all in fun. You have to relax and laugh it off. You are staying at this thread far too long knowing I'm going to take the opposite position that you take. You may as well say that H/C is faster because then I will say FI is faster. Youre far too easy a target because you get so worked up.

Sam's room as a kid:Most kids have car posters but all Sam needed was his dyno sheets.


He didnt go to a track. All he needed was his deck of dyno cards so when a friend threw down a 540rwhp stroker carD, he would come up with a pair of centri base kit cards sporting 600rwhp.....I win the race Sam says as he and his friends race into the night.......

Originally Posted by SpinMonster

Sam, as I said before, FI is faster but I'm not going to put my car back to stock and run a base kit because H/C cars are faster than base kit FI cars hence I got a H/C kit first. Not everyone wants to race your race because a 4th gear pull on a dyno isnt a race, nor is a roll-on on the street only one gear. Dismiss the boost pressure loss facts, dismiss the IAT loss from your mind. You have a DYNO SHEET!!!!!

I run a full H/C package so I have real valve springs for my car that gives me a powerband through 7k from a manly cam and heads that adjusted my compression (you recognize that a cam adds 70rwhp to a base kit car and you inquired with me about heads to drop compression. i just did these things first knowing the S/C route wasnt all that.

Other S/C supporting mods:

1-Meth injection so I dont crack a piston
2-A real fuel System so the car doesnt fall on its face at 5200rpms when the boost a pump overheats the stock pump. You said you have this one too.
3-A 100mm MAF so thats not pegged
4-A 2 bar map sensor so I fuel by boost
5-Gears because I CAN go from a dig too
6-Real tires
7-Battery relocate so I make up for that heavy head unit up front (weight transfer for us go-from-a-dig guys)
8-35 shot Nitrous to make up for the soft low end of centri s/c's and those high IATs.

My H/C car at sea level would stomp your car from a dig and it kills you. Yes 0-130 you would lose.

Its great that we have a written record of all your bashes that come back to bite you.

For the next act we get to see Sam install the meth kit with that crapy meth pump you bashed for months. You went at it with Doug at ECS that meth kits are crap with a 'weed wacker' pump which is now going on your car. Wasnt it you that said, "I'm not trusting my engine to a that pump!"

You jump on the tractionmonster thread to say I'm full-o-sheet when I say the Dic shows 1.2 g's then you post on your copy of my mod thread that it hits 1.2 G's.

We should call you Turn-around-Sam or Mr 180.

It kills you that tuners that install these kits also say FI needs more HP to accomplish the same thing but still you hold on because your dyno sheet says you have more power everywhere (as long as you only use one gear and the IATs stay under 120)

Sam its all in fun. You have to relax and laugh it off. You are staying at this thread far too long knowing I'm going to take the opposite position that you take. You may as well say that H/C is faster because then I will say FI is faster. Youre far too easy a target because you get so worked up.

Sam's room as a kid:Most kids have car posters but all Sam needed was his dyno sheets.


He didnt go to a track. All he needed was his deck of dyno cards so when a friend threw down a 540rwhp stroker carD, he would come up with a pair of centri base kit cards sporting 600rwhp.....I win the race Sam says as he and his friends race into the night.......

Originally Posted by PowerLabs

Talking to ourselves now, are we?

Spin, if H/C was so great, you'd have kept your car that way. End of discussion on my end.

Originally Posted by PowerLabs

Talking to ourselves now, are we?

Spin, if H/C was so great, you'd have kept your car that way. End of discussion on my end.

Originally Posted by SpinMonster

It was not going to get an S/c in NY. I was at the limit of traction at 611rwtq with a 75 shot (a real 611rwtq) with the H/C/nitrous. Nitrous is way more than any S/C will ever hit and its immune to ambient temp hits. The hit was too big here even on a stroker to go that way.

I would never do a base kit before H/C.

The correction factor here is 28% and your base kit car would be about 460rwhp uncorrected and 390rwtq. The elevation was the only reason I went FI. I would do a 440 stroker at sea level for 620/600rw on motor and a 50 shot makes it near 700rwtq. Even your new build will be 100rwtq shy of that. 700rwtq will break a mT ET street 345 loose in 3rd gear.

Nitrous has been my favorite for 20+ years and alway will be.

Originally Posted by PRE-Z06

Alright I ran a buddies c5 auto w/ 3.15 and a base vortech kit making ~500rwhp yesterday from 40-120, since neither of us can hook 1st gear on the street...I put ~2 car lengths on him w/ my measely ~425rwhp geared h/c car...would have been more if we would have continued as I was still pulling when we let up! FWIW I have a vararam and my car does low 170s in the mile...Powerlabs I don't see how you can call a c6z laughably slower when they trap similiar to you as they have huge power under the curve w/ 427ci, have you even raced one?

Originally Posted by SpinMonster

So where are all the 132 trap speed FI car's with a base kit? Your 129 was your best run not the average. Gears dont add to MPH. We dont race dyno's Sam. People dont line up at 50mph in 4th gear and do a pull to 150. They use multiple gears.

FI cars dont make more power everywhere. H/C cars have 7000rpm redlines and that adds to the average power under the curve in each gear. N/A cars keep pulling with no loss in power to redline if its cammed right.

The number on that dyno doesnt reflect how a vararam lowers ET's by 3 tenths and adds 3mph. After 60mph its adding likely 30hp to do that. Nor does it reflect a car that weighs 60 pounds more with added losses in aerodynamics from a lowered radiator. You also assume someone in a 50-150 roll will want to use one gear? He will use 2-3-4-5. You will lose boost pressure on each shift lowering your optimum power curve as will your IAT also climb. Your 2-3-4 roll on will be worse power wise than the ideal dyno pull. Ignoring these things lets you say power is power but its an incomplete model. Logging a real roll-on will show a power drop.

It also fails to note how much heat soak the intercooler has after actually driving the car through the first three gears to get to forth and it definitely doesnt reflect how hot that same intercooler would be if you were driving around for two hours. The 4th gear dyno pull you do is for optimum power and the car rests for quite some time. A H/C car doesnt fall off this way.

I wish you would go race a good tuner package already....for fun, so you can learn that your mathematical model is incomplete because your car cant go from 0-132 in 10.6 seconds regardless of tire, driver, or track conditions and a 520rwhp H/C car can.

One other thing: at any given vehicle speed, C6DVL's engine is revving 15% higher. So go match up your dyno sheet with Ed's and ajust for the 15% rpms added to his output power as a result of the gearing.

In this N/A dyno sheet on a geared car, 3.90's would have the car making 60rwhp more at 5750rpms than it would at 5000rpms with stock gears.


The fact that the peak HP never goes higher than with the stock gears at a track is why the car still has the same trap speed but the ET does drop and is why they run such low ET's and is also why he gets from point A to point B faster such as in a roll-on. This makes the car act as if it has 60rwhp more and why geared cars pull on non-geared cars in ET.

So add Ed's geared ET gain simulating 60+rwhp more to his already 525rwhp and you have a car that equals a true 585rwhp car but then you have that IAT rise and boost pressure issue in shifts. I think each shift lowers some part of your ideal curve so 50-150 will be more like 2nd gear through part of 5th with him pulling ahead more and more after you get killed on the launch....another gear advantage.

The higher in MPH you go in this roll on will incur higher and higher IATS and thus your power will roll off and the race looks like this....you get killed 5 lengths on the launch and close it to 2 lengths by 150 and he leaves you standing still after 150.

H/C cars also pull to 7000rpm and the power doesnt fall off. H/C cars run better valve springs adding power under the curve above 6500rpm where you have to shift.

In the end its pathetic because if we were talking about power being equal Like a 600rwhp stroker to your 600hp, and its then a 140 trap speed you should be running and yes in a roll on you would get mauled against that. 600rwhp N/A runs 9's at 138-140mph not 129.

Originally Posted by PowerLabs

I drove one for 500+ miles on a cross country rally. LOTS and LOTS of full throttle pulls, all the way up to about 170MPH. It has good low end torque but dies out at the end and once you're out of 3rd gear is is disappointing, as I said. I haven't had the chance to race one, but going from my first hand experience of driving my car for 30,000 miles and a C6 Z06 for 500 I can tell you it wouldn't be much of a race at all.
Don't get me wrong, the Z06 is a fantastic car and I very much look forward to owning one some day. But it IS a stock car; comparing a stock car to one that has been modified to the tune of 600RWHP is a bit pointless, if you've been to the drag strip I am sure you know even a POS Honda Civic can be coerced into 9 second 1/4 mile times with enough boost.

Originally Posted by SpinMonster

So where are all the 132 trap speed FI car's with a base kit? Your 129 was your best run not the average. Gears dont add to MPH. We dont race dyno's Sam. People dont line up at 50mph in 4th gear and do a pull to 150. They use multiple gears.

FI cars dont make more power everywhere. H/C cars have 7000rpm redlines and that adds to the average power under the curve in each gear. N/A cars keep pulling with no loss in power to redline if its cammed right.

The number on that dyno doesnt reflect how a vararam lowers ET's by 3 tenths and adds 3mph. After 60mph its adding likely 30hp to do that. Nor does it reflect a car that weighs 60 pounds more with added losses in aerodynamics from a lowered radiator. You also assume someone in a 50-150 roll will want to use one gear? He will use 2-3-4-5. You will lose boost pressure on each shift lowering your optimum power curve as will your IAT also climb. Your 2-3-4 roll on will be worse power wise than the ideal dyno pull. Ignoring these things lets you say power is power but its an incomplete model. Logging a real roll-on will show a power drop.

It also fails to note how much heat soak the intercooler has after actually driving the car through the first three gears to get to forth and it definitely doesnt reflect how hot that same intercooler would be if you were driving around for two hours. The 4th gear dyno pull you do is for optimum power and the car rests for quite some time. A H/C car doesnt fall off this way.

I wish you would go race a good tuner package already....for fun, so you can learn that your mathematical model is incomplete because your car cant go from 0-132 in 10.6 seconds regardless of tire, driver, or track conditions and a 520rwhp H/C car can.

One other thing: at any given vehicle speed, C6DVL's engine is revving 15% higher. So go match up your dyno sheet with Ed's and ajust for the 15% rpms added to his output power as a result of the gearing.

In this N/A dyno sheet on a geared car, 3.90's would have the car making 60rwhp more at 5750rpms than it would at 5000rpms with stock gears.


The fact that the peak HP never goes higher than with the stock gears at a track is why the car still has the same trap speed but the ET does drop and is why they run such low ET's and is also why he gets from point A to point B faster such as in a roll-on. This makes the car act as if it has 60rwhp more and why geared cars pull on non-geared cars in ET.

So add Ed's geared ET gain simulating 60+rwhp more to his already 525rwhp and you have a car that equals a true 585rwhp car but then you have that IAT rise and boost pressure issue in shifts. I think each shift lowers some part of your ideal curve so 50-150 will be more like 2nd gear through part of 5th with him pulling ahead more and more after you get killed on the launch....another gear advantage.

The higher in MPH you go in this roll on will incur higher and higher IATS and thus your power will roll off and the race looks like this....you get killed 5 lengths on the launch and close it to 2 lengths by 150 and he leaves you standing still after 150.

H/C cars also pull to 7000rpm and the power doesnt fall off. H/C cars run better valve springs adding power under the curve above 6500rpm where you have to shift.

In the end its pathetic because if we were talking about power being equal Like a 600rwhp stroker to your 600hp, and its then a 140 trap speed you should be running and yes in a roll on you would get mauled against that. 600rwhp N/A runs 9's at 138-140mph not 129.

Originally Posted by Rock'n Blue 08

Come on Spin! Internet racing and plenty of it at it's Best REAL comparo I have 3.90's and 578 rwhp and 530 rwtq. I'll race this car anytime and win this phoney scenairo roll race.

Plus I monitored my IAT's! They hardly rise during WOT
Remember YOUR S/C is Not A&A your ECS has a different setup, more
intercooler heat! So you don't know what your saying!

Originally Posted by LSCHLEM

With your car being down for repairs have you considered a small cam
which will give you another level of HP/TQ wo all the driveability issues
you will not have. There are many zero issue cams out there to chose
from. I'm quite surprised your car held up as much as it did considering all the hard driving and high mileage you put on it. Cameron is the only one I know who has been tougher on a car than you are. I know you had the tractionmonster wheels w nitto555r2's but I dont know if you had them on or RF's when you did the 129MPH which I think is quite
impressive for just winging it. Good luck getting it back together. Leon

Originally Posted by PowerLabs

I drove one for 500+ miles on a cross country rally. LOTS and LOTS of full throttle pulls, all the way up to about 170MPH. It has good low end torque but dies out at the end and once you're out of 3rd gear is is disappointing, as I said. I haven't had the chance to race one, but going from my first hand experience of driving my car for 30,000 miles and a C6 Z06 for 500 I can tell you it wouldn't be much of a race at all.

Originally Posted by PowerLabs

But it IS a stock car; comparing a stock car to one that has been modified to the tune of 600RWHP is a bit pointless, if you've been to the drag strip I am sure you know even a POS Honda Civic can be coerced into 9 second 1/4 mile times with enough boost.

Originally Posted by LS1LT1

So this is all based on a seat-of-the-pants dyno (ie: how it feels) and not actual timed/empirical data?
Hmm, I'd thought your analyses were typically more exact than that.

Originally Posted by LS1LT1

Yes, a stock car that weighs only 3100 pounds and also makes upwards of 460hp/440tq at the wheels.
You do know that a bolt ons only (stock/untouched engine internals) C6 Z06 recently ran a 10.1@134mph+ hitting trap speeds of well over 136 on other passes, right?

Originally Posted by PowerLabs

Like it or not a car that can only put down 460WHP on the rollers is *considerably* slower from a roll than a car that delivers 600 to the tires. All misconceptions and misgivings about dynos aside, when you put your foot down, unless the intercooler is heat soaked, or timing is being pulled, or you are losing boost, it makes the same power it made on the dyno, and the laws of physics still apply

Originally Posted by HC Mechanic

Man you guys Really need to line 'em up!!!!!!!!! I want Spin to video the whole thing

Maybe meet in Nebraska when it warms up, I've never seen flatter roads than there!