So where are all the 132 trap speed FI car's with a base kit? Your 129 was your best run not the average. Gears dont add to MPH. We dont race dyno's Sam. People dont line up at 50mph in 4th gear and do a pull to 150. They use multiple gears.

FI cars dont make more power everywhere. H/C cars have 7000rpm redlines and that adds to the average power under the curve in each gear. N/A cars keep pulling with no loss in power to redline if its cammed right.

The number on that dyno doesnt reflect how a vararam lowers ET's by 3 tenths and adds 3mph. After 60mph its adding likely 30hp to do that. Nor does it reflect a car that weighs 60 pounds more with added losses in aerodynamics from a lowered radiator. You also assume someone in a 50-150 roll will want to use one gear? He will use 2-3-4-5. You will lose boost pressure on each shift lowering your optimum power curve as will your IAT also climb. Your 2-3-4 roll on will be worse power wise than the ideal dyno pull. Ignoring these things lets you say power is power but its an incomplete model. Logging a real roll-on will show a power drop.

It also fails to note how much heat soak the intercooler has after actually driving the car through the first three gears to get to forth and it definitely doesnt reflect how hot that same intercooler would be if you were driving around for two hours. The 4th gear dyno pull you do is for optimum power and the car rests for quite some time. A H/C car doesnt fall off this way.

I wish you would go race a good tuner package already....for fun, so you can learn that your mathematical model is incomplete because your car cant go from 0-132 in 10.6 seconds regardless of tire, driver, or track conditions and a 520rwhp H/C car can.

One other thing: at any given vehicle speed, C6DVL's engine is revving 15% higher. So go match up your dyno sheet with Ed's and ajust for the 15% rpms added to his output power as a result of the gearing.

In this N/A dyno sheet on a geared car, 3.90's would have the car making 60rwhp more at 5750rpms than it would at 5000rpms with stock gears.


The fact that the peak HP never goes higher than with the stock gears at a track is why the car still has the same trap speed but the ET does drop and is why they run such low ET's and is also why he gets from point A to point B faster such as in a roll-on. This makes the car act as if it has 60rwhp more and why geared cars pull on non-geared cars in ET.

So add Ed's geared ET gain simulating 60+rwhp more to his already 525rwhp and you have a car that equals a true 585rwhp car but then you have that IAT rise and boost pressure issue in shifts. I think each shift lowers some part of your ideal curve so 50-150 will be more like 2nd gear through part of 5th with him pulling ahead more and more after you get killed on the launch....another gear advantage.

The higher in MPH you go in this roll on will incur higher and higher IATS and thus your power will roll off and the race looks like this....you get killed 5 lengths on the launch and close it to 2 lengths by 150 and he leaves you standing still after 150.

H/C cars also pull to 7000rpm and the power doesnt fall off. H/C cars run better valve springs adding power under the curve above 6500rpm where you have to shift.

In the end its pathetic because if we were talking about power being equal Like a 600rwhp stroker to your 600hp, and its then a 140 trap speed you should be running and yes in a roll on you would get mauled against that. 600rwhp N/A runs 9's at 138-140mph not 129.

 

Yeah that's very true as far as a daily driver is concerned, Charlie's dyno runs have been the only one's I've seen that start under 2,000 rpm

Con's to FI:
There are quite a few shifts going down the 1320, and every shift you loose power momentarily with FI. That add's up.

And when your in stop and go traffic, or waiting in a staging lane your IAT's are going to be much higher than when on a dyno measuring power. Again cutting down on what your power output.

At the end of the day it is what it is...dyno numbers are just that...dyno numbers. It's a tool for tuning and development.

 

Have you ever, in your life, started a race at 2500RPM? Unless your car is diesel powered, I hope the answer is "no".
I know when I want to go fast I always downshift my car into the peak of the torque band; I try to it it where I'm making 518 foot pounds of torque, not off idle when the engine is making maybe 100ft-lbs of torque...

 

You're assuming a rolling start?

San

 

All you need to add is meth to make up lots of the difference. And eventually a fuel system when your stock pump takes a dump.

Lost boost pressure is a big part of it.

Can we get a 3rd gear pull WOT on the dyno followed by a hard shift to 4th to model the pressure/power loss? We would then be able to quantify the differences in true power at that part of the curve.

 

You know, I had a Vararam before I went S/C. It was complete junk and all it was really good for was letting dirt into my engine after it warped. I drove my car like that, making around 400RWHP with the vararam, long tube headers, an exhaust, thermostat, ported intake and TB and a tune for some 15K miles, and while it was fun enough for a DD, it was laughably slower than it is now. I also drove a C6Z06 for 500 miles and it was a huge disappointment in power too. You know, for being the champion for H/C you are, I think it is... Interesting that you ended up getting a supercharger Yes, I know, you live in Colorado now, have to make up for the altitude, right? But in truth you got a S/C because you wanted a really fast car, and you know there is no way in hell you're going to have one as fast as you like by keeping it N/A. It is as simple as that. Build the most outrageous, ridiculous, high reving unstreetable N/A street monster, and I bet you I can find a supercharged car that will DESTROY it on a roll race for half the money.


My car is lighter than stock beause it has lighter tires, no cats, lighter headers and lighter flywheel and clutch assembly. Your car has aerodynamic losses from a lowered radiator? You should have that fixed ASAP. My radiator is right where it used to be.

I can flat foot shift since my car has a Lingenfelter LC. From a roll, I'd be starting with normal IATs too; the heatsoak you get at the drag strip sitting still doesn't happen when you are driving.

Yes, but this is not "free power" by any means; he also ends up having to shift sooner because of that. Or having to rev into the end of his powerband where power is dropping off.


Yes it does. Show me one H/C plot where the power isn't dropping off at the end.

 

 

Yes. That's the only race that really interests me... I know a lot of people love the drag strip and 1/4 mile numbers but me, I couldn't care less; I want a car that starts at typical driving speeds, say, 60MPH, and then takes off when I put the hammer down, but can turn and stop too. That represents my usual driving much better than 1/4 mile of specially treated tarmac, long waiting lines, and cars with skinnies and aired down slicks that couldn't negotiate a turn to save their own lives.

 

Enjoy Australia.

I don't drag race. I do however realize the importance of a car that doesn't stumble at low rpms. We can't always be in the "sweet spot". Again, enjoy Australia, one continent I've never visited.

San

 

I definitely agree with you there

Set something up, I want to see the results!

 

I agree it sam that im looking to build a car that will be a highway king, my target is gt35r subies and evos, KB cobras, gallardos and 430s

im thinking to add meth not for more power but as a chemical intercooler once my power tuning os complete.

heres h/c + added cubes c5 against the supercharged/ cammed camera c5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO-shrSnVK4

 

I'd like to chime in here and say I think that Spin is being very unbiased in his assessment. He has both H/C and FI and realizes what both bring to the table. He (and other notable tuners) also recognize advantages/disadvantages that each display. In no way do I think he is promoting one over the other. Rather, I think he is explaining that each has it's forte and that they also work well together.

San

 

It's not all about the drag strip. A lot of guys i know have their cars set up for drag racing, road racing and spirited driving, including myself. Where just a tire change away and a few clicks on the adjustable shocks away from tuning the suspension for road racing and roll ons.

 

Did I miss something? What was my unfair advantage?

 

Sam, as I said before, FI is faster but I'm not going to put my car back to stock and run a base kit because H/C cars are faster than base kit FI cars hence I got a H/C kit first. Not everyone wants to race your race because a 4th gear pull on a dyno isnt a race, nor is a roll-on on the street only one gear. Dismiss the boost pressure loss facts, dismiss the IAT loss from your mind. You have a DYNO SHEET!!!!!

I run a full H/C package so I have real valve springs for my car that gives me a powerband through 7k from a manly cam and heads that adjusted my compression (you recognize that a cam adds 70rwhp to a base kit car and you inquired with me about heads to drop compression. i just did these things first knowing the S/C route wasnt all that.

Other S/C supporting mods:

1-Meth injection so I dont crack a piston
2-A real fuel System so the car doesnt fall on its face at 5200rpms when the boost a pump overheats the stock pump. You said you have this one too.
3-A 100mm MAF so thats not pegged
4-A 2 bar map sensor so I fuel by boost
5-Gears because I CAN go from a dig too
6-Real tires
7-Battery relocate so I make up for that heavy head unit up front (weight transfer for us go-from-a-dig guys)
8-35 shot Nitrous to make up for the soft low end of centri s/c's and those high IATs.

My H/C car at sea level would stomp your car from a dig and it kills you. Yes 0-130 you would lose.

Its great that we have a written record of all your bashes that come back to bite you.

For the next act we get to see Sam install the meth kit with that crapy meth pump you bashed for months. You went at it with Doug at ECS that meth kits are crap with a 'weed wacker' pump which is now going on your car. Wasnt it you that said, "I'm not trusting my engine to a that pump!"

You jump on the tractionmonster thread to say I'm full-o-sheet when I say the Dic shows 1.2 g's then you post on your copy of my mod thread that it hits 1.2 G's.

We should call you Turn-around-Sam or Mr 180.

It kills you that tuners that install these kits also say FI needs more HP to accomplish the same thing but still you hold on because your dyno sheet says you have more power everywhere (as long as you only use one gear and the IATs stay under 120)

Sam its all in fun. You have to relax and laugh it off. You are staying at this thread far too long knowing I'm going to take the opposite position that you take. You may as well say that H/C is faster because then I will say FI is faster. Youre far too easy a target because you get so worked up.

Sam's room as a kid:Most kids have car posters but all Sam needed was his dyno sheets.


He didnt go to a track. All he needed was his deck of dyno cards so when a friend threw down a 540rwhp stroker carD, he would come up with a pair of centri base kit cards sporting 600rwhp.....I win the race Sam says as he and his friends race into the night.......

 

True. But Dennis's car (and even mine for that matter) does quite 'ok' from a roll as well considering it's highway power robbing automatic transmission. I think his car's nearly 127mph trap speed (126.98mph to be exact as a bolt ons only car (it's now 130 with just a cam added)) kind of shows that....hmm, that "laughably slower" 127 isn't too far behind 129 (through a manual no less - manuals typically trap notably higher than autos) now is it?
And yes, it even has a Vararam as well.

 

100%

 

H/C is faster than a BASE kit.

 

I was being sarchastic.

 

OK, so have we come full circle?

You have been posting up in a huff and now you agree with what was posted on page 1?