Supercharger vs. N/A...... LS2
Speedy
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,112
Likes: 931
From: Tn
2024 C8 of the Year Finalist - Modified
well id like to get in on this i know theres a few bolt on and cam z06s around my neck of the woods, ill see what they have
heres what youtube shows:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP0f_SVhwGA
heres what youtube shows:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP0f_SVhwGA
Last edited by SinisterC6; Jan 12, 2010 at 09:25 PM.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Come on Spin!
Internet racing and plenty of it at it's Best 
REAL comparo I have 3.90's and 578 rwhp and 530 rwtq. I'll race this car anytime and win this phoney scenairo roll race. Plus I monitored my IAT's! They hardly rise during WOT
Remember YOUR S/C is Not A&A your ECS has a different setup, more
intercooler heat! So you don't know what your saying!
Now if your race of choice is for two cars to line up on the hiway in 4th gear and run it up to redline, I think the 600rwhp car will win. As you add more gears to this race or do multiple races, its likely each subsequent run will be slower because the intercooler will be hotter on each run than the prior one. This is where meth injection translates into massive gains because it lowers IATs a lot. Shifts will still induce lost boost pressure for manual cars.
Last edited by SpinMonster; Jan 13, 2010 at 01:05 AM.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, or any of the posts in this thread for that matter, but there has been back to back intercooler IAT tests done on this forum by a respected shop in CA, who came up with the exact same IAT's from both intercoolers. So basically...
You don't know what your saying!!
You don't know what your saying!!
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,359
Likes: 6
From: Los Alamitos California
St. Jude Donor '09
Spin, you've been fair and objective. I think that some have to "justify" their purchase. Everyone has different goals and in the end we attain them in different ways.
I personally want a car that can dig from a stop if needed and survive open track duty. Others want a roll-on car that pulls hard at optimum boost levels. Regardless, some have exaggerated their car's capabilities. They know who they are.
The tuners that have chimed in agree that FI cars need more horsepower to attain the same acceleration as H/C cars, all else being equal. Since the tuners do both FI and H/C builds I would think most here would accept that.
I personally want a car that can dig from a stop if needed and survive open track duty. Others want a roll-on car that pulls hard at optimum boost levels. Regardless, some have exaggerated their car's capabilities. They know who they are.
The tuners that have chimed in agree that FI cars need more horsepower to attain the same acceleration as H/C cars, all else being equal. Since the tuners do both FI and H/C builds I would think most here would accept that.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,396
Likes: 2,912
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Yeah, I picked up a C6 ZR1 camshaft from Lingenfelter performance and will have it installed on my new build. The new motor will be basically a lower compression forged LS2 with that cam, upgraded valvetrain, the blower pullied down and meth. I don't want to go too crazy with it; I think this will be a good solid setup to keep me entertained or another year or so 
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
What are the ZR1's cam specs?
I heard the Z06 cam made +90hp but thats a bit steep for a 4 degree intake duration increase.
I think the cam is a great idea and will idle like stock.
I heard the Z06 cam made +90hp but thats a bit steep for a 4 degree intake duration increase.
I think the cam is a great idea and will idle like stock.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,114
Likes: 42
From: California
Spin, you've been fair and objective. I think that some have to "justify" their purchase. Everyone has different goals and in the end we attain them in different ways.
I personally want a car that can dig from a stop if needed and survive open track duty. Others want a roll-on car that pulls hard at optimum boost levels. Regardless, some have exaggerated their car's capabilities. They know who they are.
I personally want a car that can dig from a stop if needed and survive open track duty. Others want a roll-on car that pulls hard at optimum boost levels. Regardless, some have exaggerated their car's capabilities. They know who they are.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,396
Likes: 2,912
From: Fort Worth, Texas
The same as the z06, just a different lsa I believe...so it's an increase of 7* on the intake and 19* on the exhaust, but even with 1.7 rockers you gain ~.040" lift...curious what springs you're gonna run Sam?
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Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Any spring that handles this with the cam's powerband will increase his redline. Even if the car had the same peak HP but it happened at a higher rpm, this would increase the trap speed since the average HP under the curve increases by the added rpm range. Anther reason HP isnt equal in all cases.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,114
Likes: 42
From: California
The increased rev's should help with lag time, in getting back to boost during shifts. Due to the S/C maintaining higher revs 
F1 runs lots of revs for the same reason, the higher the revs the more ability there is for acceleration. I believe it comes down to frictional losses, but I'm sure someone on here is more knowledgeable on that than me. But for sure with N/A, it has a lot to do with VE.
F1 runs lots of revs for the same reason, the higher the revs the more ability there is for acceleration. I believe it comes down to frictional losses, but I'm sure someone on here is more knowledgeable on that than me. But for sure with N/A, it has a lot to do with VE.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,933
Likes: 905
From: salem OR
Are they not different intercoolers along with the placement?
Along with right or left handed inlet. There's a difference! Between them don't kid me ! Ask Andy who know this and tests his intercooler and has made many,many changes for this reason! Even between the A&A set-up's
Along solid pipe set-ups such as mine. Doesn't heat up
much at all!
Sorry Doug No slam intended on ECS. It's just that Spin is commenting on what a
A&A intercooler does. When he doesn't have one.
My old 578 and 530 tq is old by the way. Done a few mods since then.
Plus I have a set of M&H's I put on from time to time!
Along with right or left handed inlet. There's a difference! Between them don't kid me ! Ask Andy who know this and tests his intercooler and has made many,many changes for this reason! Even between the A&A set-up's
Along solid pipe set-ups such as mine. Doesn't heat up
much at all!
Sorry Doug No slam intended on ECS. It's just that Spin is commenting on what a
A&A intercooler does. When he doesn't have one.
My old 578 and 530 tq is old by the way. Done a few mods since then.
Plus I have a set of M&H's I put on from time to time!
Last edited by 3 Z06ZR1; Jan 13, 2010 at 05:22 AM.
Premium Supporting Vendor
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,599
Likes: 1,226
From: Providing the most proven supercharger kits for your C5/6/7 609-752-0321
Are they not different intercoolers along with the placement?
Along with right or left handed inlet. There's a difference! Between them don't kid me ! Ask Andy who know this and tests his intercooler and has made many,many changes for this reason! Even between the A&A set-up's
Along solid pipe set-ups such as mine. Doesn't heat up
much at all!
Sorry Doug No slam intended on ECS. It's just that Spin is commenting on what a
A&A intercooler does. When he doesn't have one.
My old 578 and 530 tq is old by the way. Done a few mods since then.
Plus I have a set of M&H's I put on from time to time!
Along with right or left handed inlet. There's a difference! Between them don't kid me ! Ask Andy who know this and tests his intercooler and has made many,many changes for this reason! Even between the A&A set-up's
Along solid pipe set-ups such as mine. Doesn't heat up
much at all!
Sorry Doug No slam intended on ECS. It's just that Spin is commenting on what a
A&A intercooler does. When he doesn't have one.
My old 578 and 530 tq is old by the way. Done a few mods since then.
Plus I have a set of M&H's I put on from time to time!
I'm sure you can understand as a manufacturer of a SC kit, we spend a great amount of time on items like that, so we have to clarify these things before rumors start.
guys,
one thing that was not really covered, or maybe I just missed it, is the torque differences. Everyone discusses what the HP is between the two, but I didn't see much of a discussion on the torque differences, which is the most important difference in a street car IMHO.
You cant put blanket assumptions of what a SC car will do to a NA car because it depends on which kit you have in your car for the SC debate.
Do a search on dyno graphs posted, and you will see with the design of our base SC kit, we generally equal, or come very close to the HP numbers in TQ to HP. Take a look at some of the graphs posted by competitors right on the first page of the FI section, and you will see huge splits between the two.
These are the reasons why we get calls all the time saying "I put 3 cars lengths on my buddies car who has the same HP with an XX kit".
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 11
From: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
The increased rev's should help with lag time, in getting back to boost during shifts. Due to the S/C maintaining higher revs
F1 runs lots of revs for the same reason, the higher the revs the more ability there is for acceleration. I believe it comes down to frictional losses, but I'm sure someone on here is more knowledgeable on that than me. But for sure with N/A, it has a lot to do with VE.
F1 runs lots of revs for the same reason, the higher the revs the more ability there is for acceleration. I believe it comes down to frictional losses, but I'm sure someone on here is more knowledgeable on that than me. But for sure with N/A, it has a lot to do with VE.
Superchargers are belt driven and therefore, by definition, have no "lag". Turbos lag because the compressor is spun by an exhaust driven turbine which only receives energy when the throttle is open; when a turbo car goes full throttle, it takes time for the turbine to get up to speed and the compressor to start making boost and that time is what is commonly called "turbo lag".
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 11
From: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
For another $1100 I can upgrade to a T-Trim blower and make mid to upper 700s, but I am not going that route for now; I daily drive the car, so I can't go nuts with it.
I think we have different definitions of "pulling fine". The C6Z has a top speed of, what, 196MPH? Obviously it will still be accelerating at 160... I did a pull to 203MPH on my car, and while it was definitely "pulling" in 4rth and 5th gear, it wasn't nearly as fast as I'd like it to be. It took something like 45seconds to go from 90 to 203. I'd like to see that happen much faster. I'd love a car that can go, from a standing start, to 200MPH in one mile. That takes around 800CHP. Under those requirements a C6Z is "slow". I am not knocking the Z06; I like it so much that I am budgeting to buy one in a year; I think it is the best car you can buy south of about 100,000 dollars. I am just pointing out that it IS a bone stock car that has to meet all the compromises and limitations of a 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty and emissions regulations, so because of that it a makes a lot less power than I'd like. When I buy one, it won't stay stock for long
I am running dual valve springs, but the brand name is not listed on my build sheet...
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,690
Likes: 1
From: Northern Calif
All good!
I'm sure you can understand as a manufacturer of a SC kit, we spend a great amount of time on items like that, so we have to clarify these things before rumors start.
guys,
one thing that was not really covered, or maybe I just missed it, is the torque differences. Everyone discusses what the HP is between the two, but I didn't see much of a discussion on the torque differences, which is the most important difference in a street car IMHO.
You cant put blanket assumptions of what a SC car will do to a NA car because it depends on which kit you have in your car for the SC debate.
Do a search on dyno graphs posted, and you will see with the design of our base SC kit, we generally equal, or come very close to the HP numbers in TQ to HP. Take a look at some of the graphs posted by competitors right on the first page of the FI section, and you will see huge splits between the two.
These are the reasons why we get calls all the time saying "I put 3 cars lengths on my buddies car who has the same HP with an XX kit".
I'm sure you can understand as a manufacturer of a SC kit, we spend a great amount of time on items like that, so we have to clarify these things before rumors start.
guys,
one thing that was not really covered, or maybe I just missed it, is the torque differences. Everyone discusses what the HP is between the two, but I didn't see much of a discussion on the torque differences, which is the most important difference in a street car IMHO.
You cant put blanket assumptions of what a SC car will do to a NA car because it depends on which kit you have in your car for the SC debate.
Do a search on dyno graphs posted, and you will see with the design of our base SC kit, we generally equal, or come very close to the HP numbers in TQ to HP. Take a look at some of the graphs posted by competitors right on the first page of the FI section, and you will see huge splits between the two.
These are the reasons why we get calls all the time saying "I put 3 cars lengths on my buddies car who has the same HP with an XX kit".
would be nice if you put up the dyno chart showing this on a stock car with you base kit. My question is how does your kit compare to other centri or root style blowers at part throttle respose. It is a common belief that roots style s/c give the most torque off idle, but I have read that ECS's centri comes close to roots style tourque down low. How is your kit different to achieve this? Finally, has this comparo been measured?
Premium Supporting Vendor
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,599
Likes: 1,226
From: Providing the most proven supercharger kits for your C5/6/7 609-752-0321
Doug,
would be nice if you put up the dyno chart showing this on a stock car with you base kit. My question is how does your kit compare to other centri or root style blowers at part throttle respose. It is a common belief that roots style s/c give the most torque off idle, but I have read that ECS's centri comes close to roots style tourque down low. How is your kit different to achieve this? Finally, has this comparo been measured?
would be nice if you put up the dyno chart showing this on a stock car with you base kit. My question is how does your kit compare to other centri or root style blowers at part throttle respose. It is a common belief that roots style s/c give the most torque off idle, but I have read that ECS's centri comes close to roots style tourque down low. How is your kit different to achieve this? Finally, has this comparo been measured?
I have some roots vrs ECS dyno graphs that were posted by others on this forum so that way they cannot be claimed as biased, but the roots only makes more power under 2500 rpm. Who demands full engine power at 2500rpm?
Let me dig them up for you.
We achieve the low end by the design of our kit, we offer a restrictor plate that allows us to use a pulley that would normally over boost the top end, but with that smaller pulley, we increase the low end substantially. The restrictor limits the top end boost so it flat lines on the upper end rather then over boosting.
IMHO, it offers the best of both worlds, and all the expansion you could ever need if you chose to do so. (within reason)
PL, did you see the build we did for Streetfast? We used a ZR1 cam in an LPE 416, the car runs like stock! You would never know it was an 800/800rwhp/tq car until you hit the throttle. It's one heck of a sleeper to say the least, your really going to like that set up.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 11
From: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
PL, did you see the build we did for Streetfast? We used a ZR1 cam in an LPE 416, the car runs like stock! You would never know it was an 800/800rwhp/tq car until you hit the throttle. It's one heck of a sleeper to say the least, your really going to like that set up.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 8,308
Likes: 157
From: NJ
One reason PL hasn't come close is because he has little experience with drag racing this setup.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 8,308
Likes: 157
From: NJ
If these base kits are making 550rwhp from a reputable shop and better and not trapping 132 mph then the cars not being driven right.
I've seen alot of S/C vettes trapp big mph but never post about it because either they don't care to or because they were hoping for a better et.
I've seen alot of S/C vettes trapp big mph but never post about it because either they don't care to or because they were hoping for a better et.