160 Deg Stat.
02-14-2012, 12:30 AM
#21
Tech Contributor
While you read the pros and cons for a 160 stat keep in mind that GM didnt intend on this car making 500.....600.....700HP. When you mod the car, the cooling system was designed for stock power levels. the only way to stay in front of the heat will be a 160 stat and fans comming in sooner and faster.
My power was up to 959rwhp and driving a huge supercharger, my car saw up to 210 on hot summer days with a 160stat just cruising on the hiway.
If you mod your car, get a 160 and ignore the GM did it best crowd.
My power was up to 959rwhp and driving a huge supercharger, my car saw up to 210 on hot summer days with a 160stat just cruising on the hiway.
If you mod your car, get a 160 and ignore the GM did it best crowd.
02-14-2012, 12:50 AM
#22
Le Mans Master
While you read the pros and cons for a 160 stat keep in mind that GM didnt intend on this car making 500.....600.....700HP. When you mod the car, the cooling system was designed for stock power levels. the only way to stay in front of the heat will be a 160 stat and fans comming in sooner and faster.
My power was up to 959rwhp and driving a huge supercharger, my car saw up to 210 on hot summer days with a 160stat just cruising on the hiway.
If you mod your car, get a 160 and ignore the GM did it best crowd.
My power was up to 959rwhp and driving a huge supercharger, my car saw up to 210 on hot summer days with a 160stat just cruising on the hiway.
If you mod your car, get a 160 and ignore the GM did it best crowd.
Last edited by AirBusPilot; 02-14-2012 at 11:15 AM.
02-14-2012, 01:15 AM
#23
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St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
Could not have said it better myself.....
While you read the pros and cons for a 160 stat keep in mind that GM didnt intend on this car making 500.....600.....700HP. When you mod the car, the cooling system was designed for stock power levels. the only way to stay in front of the heat will be a 160 stat and fans comming in sooner and faster.
My power was up to 959rwhp and driving a huge supercharger, my car saw up to 210 on hot summer days with a 160stat just cruising on the hiway.
If you mod your car, get a 160 and ignore the GM did it best crowd.
My power was up to 959rwhp and driving a huge supercharger, my car saw up to 210 on hot summer days with a 160stat just cruising on the hiway.
If you mod your car, get a 160 and ignore the GM did it best crowd.
Do we trust Airbuspilot that has the volume of experience of 1 or 2 cars....
Or someone like myself or SPIN where we have the combined experience of 1,000's of successes
with the 160 stat and a STOCK RADIATOR????
Enough said... We'll let CF decide for themselves....
Chuck CoW
02-14-2012, 09:18 AM
#24
Safety Car
Seriously, don't waste your money on this gimmick. What you need is a manual fan controller. Working with the stock 187*F thermostat, you can easily keep your temps in the low 190's, which is the sweet spot for power. Too cold and you lose efficiency. Too hot and you get into the timing retard tables (starts at 212*F).
Also, keep in mind, the stock thermostat only STARTS to open at 187. It really doesn't flow enough to cool the engine till high 190's. That's where most run, for that reason. With a 160 your car will cruise in the 180's which is best for power.
Why would you have two parts of a system fighting each other?
That's what you are doing by putting in a fan switch with a stock thermostat. The stat is closing off flow trying to keep the engine in the high 190's (FOR EMISSIONS REASONS ONLY, IT'LL RUN BETTER IN THE 180'S) while the fans are now running their little hearts out trying to keep the engine cooler. That's just dumb.
02-14-2012, 09:26 AM
#25
Race Director
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While you read the pros and cons for a 160 stat keep in mind that GM didnt intend on this car making 500.....600.....700HP. When you mod the car, the cooling system was designed for stock power levels. the only way to stay in front of the heat will be a 160 stat and fans comming in sooner and faster.
My power was up to 959rwhp and driving a huge supercharger, my car saw up to 210 on hot summer days with a 160stat just cruising on the hiway.
If you mod your car, get a 160 and ignore the GM did it best crowd.
My power was up to 959rwhp and driving a huge supercharger, my car saw up to 210 on hot summer days with a 160stat just cruising on the hiway.
If you mod your car, get a 160 and ignore the GM did it best crowd.
The op's question was:
Would there be any benefit to installing a 160 stat in a stock 2008 motor?
My car, when stock, never had ANY heat issues driving around in Houston summers. I never saw over 206 degrees when the car was moving even on days where it was peaking close to 110 outside.
Last edited by FloydSummerOf68; 02-14-2012 at 09:28 AM.
02-14-2012, 10:50 AM
#26
Drifting
My car runs at 172 on the freeway even in the summer with a 160* with 500hp. Is that too cold? Stock it was at 192. I'm thinking about putting my stock stat back in.
02-14-2012, 10:59 AM
#27
Le Mans Master
Could not have said it better myself.....
Do we trust Airbuspilot that has the volume of experience of 1 or 2 cars....
Or someone like myself or SPIN where we have the combined experience of 1,000's of successes
with the 160 stat and a STOCK RADIATOR????
Enough said... We'll let CF decide for themselves....
Chuck CoW
Do we trust Airbuspilot that has the volume of experience of 1 or 2 cars....
Or someone like myself or SPIN where we have the combined experience of 1,000's of successes
with the 160 stat and a STOCK RADIATOR????
Enough said... We'll let CF decide for themselves....
Chuck CoW
Last edited by AirBusPilot; 02-14-2012 at 11:19 AM.
02-14-2012, 11:13 AM
#28
Le Mans Master
That is not true. The GM ECM interpolates between columns. That means it starts to retard timing at 200 degrees ECT when at high airflow to the engine.
Also, keep in mind, the stock thermostat only STARTS to open at 187. It really doesn't flow enough to cool the engine till high 190's. That's where most run, for that reason. With a 160 your car will cruise in the 180's which is best for power.
Why would you have two parts of a system fighting each other? That's what you are doing by putting in a fan switch with a stock thermostat. The stat is closing off flow trying to keep the engine in the high 190's (FOR EMISSIONS REASONS ONLY, IT'LL RUN BETTER IN THE 180'S) while the fans are now running their little hearts out trying to keep the engine cooler. That's just dumb.
Also, keep in mind, the stock thermostat only STARTS to open at 187. It really doesn't flow enough to cool the engine till high 190's. That's where most run, for that reason. With a 160 your car will cruise in the 180's which is best for power.
Why would you have two parts of a system fighting each other?
That's what you are doing by putting in a fan switch with a stock thermostat. The stat is closing off flow trying to keep the engine in the high 190's (FOR EMISSIONS REASONS ONLY, IT'LL RUN BETTER IN THE 180'S) while the fans are now running their little hearts out trying to keep the engine cooler. That's just dumb.It doesn't. My LS7, with no cooling mods at all, has a cruise coolant temp between 190-194.
With the fan switch set in the Lo position, I can let the car idle and the fan has enough flow to keep the engine at around 192-194F. Or, I can turn the fan switch to off and let the ecm dictate when the fans turn on.
As shown by the timing v. engine coolant tables I posted above, there is NO timing interference at those temp. I'll take your word that you start seeing timing retard at 200F, but it doesn't matter as I never see that high temp unless I let the ecm control the fans while it idles.
But this statement:
"The stat is closing off flow trying to keep the engine in the high 190's" tells me you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how a thermostat works. The tstat is NOT trying to close in the "high 190's". It's the opposite. Once temp hits 187F, the tstat starts to open (when it is fully open is up to debate, but it's open enough to keep my engine temp in the low 190's at speed, or at idle with the fans on).
Additionally, " (FOR EMISSIONS REASONS ONLY, IT'LL RUN BETTER IN THE 180'S)" is also false. A colder engine leeches more combustion heat, which means less power. As long as you avoid the timing retard tables that occur at the hotter temps, the engine will be more efficient the hotter it runs, meaning more power. Before you or anyone says it just to be argumentative, yes, you dont' want it so hot causes parts to destruct or melt.
02-14-2012, 11:40 AM
#29
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What your engineer friend was really telling you is that a warmer engine is more efficient, which results in less unburnt fuel and less emissions. That's a good thing for emissions AND power. The colder an engine runs, the more the combustion heat in the chamber is leeched from the combustion process, and that is less efficient. Heat = Power.
As you can see by the chart, the engine is not having any timing retard until it sees 212*F.
On the road, the stock thermo will keep the engine in the mid to low 190* range, which is perfectly safe and warm enough to run your heater.
What I like about the switch is that I can keep the engine running in the staging lanes with the fan going and coolant temps run about 192*, and the oil stays nice and warm for the next run.
As you can see by the chart, the engine is not having any timing retard until it sees 212*F.
On the road, the stock thermo will keep the engine in the mid to low 190* range, which is perfectly safe and warm enough to run your heater.
What I like about the switch is that I can keep the engine running in the staging lanes with the fan going and coolant temps run about 192*, and the oil stays nice and warm for the next run.
02-14-2012, 12:02 PM
#30
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St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
Wrong.
I'm sure there is a delicate balance somewhere. This convo could be carried out forever... I agee with AirBusPilot in that heat = power. In the laws of thermodynamics HEAT IS ENERGY!! However too much heat can cause issues and likewise not enough heat can also.(<<< YES. I AGREE.
explosives and what have you.
When our frame of reference is an "internal combustion engine in an automobile, EVERYTHING CHANGES"
It's isn't as simple as "MORE HEAT=MORE POWER"
While an engine in a car might be a simple concept for many of you, there are MANY systems
at work, many "laws of nature" taking control, and lots of compromises and circumstances to consider.
Not to be soooo Direct, but when I speak of my experience of 1,000s of cars in the last nearly 30 years....
I would wager that that's something pretty solid that most people could hang their hat on.
I'm confident you could not explain in detail all of the things going on in your remote control or your TV set
but when you push the buttons it works. You don't know why... Nor should you car....
you push the button and you see it work...and LIFE IS GOOD.
Going back to my experience, while there are exceptions, The WAY I DO WHAT I DO...WORKS!
What are we arguing about???
160 stats are ALWAYS A BENEFIT... NO MATTER WHAT YOUR ARGUMENT IS.
There are very few circumstances when this is not true. I believe that it's fair to say that this
information is of the highest relevance to you Corvette owner covering nearly 100% of most lawfully
registered and insured street driven vehicles.
YES, there will be exceptions for EXTREME uses or circumstances.
But dudes.... GET A FREEKIN' 160!
Chuck CoW
02-14-2012, 12:25 PM
#31
Safety Car
[QUOTE
But this statement:
"The stat is closing off flow trying to keep the engine in the high 190's" tells me you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how a thermostat works. The tstat is NOT trying to close in the "high 190's". It's the opposite. Once temp hits 187F, the tstat starts to open (when it is fully open is up to debate, but it's open enough to keep my engine temp in the low 190's at speed, or at idle with the fans on).
Additionally, " (FOR EMISSIONS REASONS ONLY, IT'LL RUN BETTER IN THE 180'S)" is also false. A colder engine leeches more combustion heat, which means less power. As long as you avoid the timing retard tables that occur at the hotter temps, the engine will be more efficient the hotter it runs, meaning more power. Before you or anyone says it just to be argumentative, yes, you dont' want it so hot causes parts to destruct or melt.[/QUOTE]
Actually, both are true. As the fans cool the coolant towards the stat opening point it closes down to keep the coolant in the range GM wanted it for emissions reasons. Now if you are operating just out of timing retard and do some spirited driving you will see the temp go up into timing retard. But if you start a little lower you will stay in the zone where max hp can be made. The real problem with higher operating temps is that the metal around the combustion cylinder heats unevenly and hot spots occur which cause detonation. Running a little cooler ECT's helps reduce these. There is a sweet spot for ECT's for power, just a little cooler than GM chose:
But this statement:
"The stat is closing off flow trying to keep the engine in the high 190's" tells me you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how a thermostat works. The tstat is NOT trying to close in the "high 190's". It's the opposite. Once temp hits 187F, the tstat starts to open (when it is fully open is up to debate, but it's open enough to keep my engine temp in the low 190's at speed, or at idle with the fans on).
Additionally, " (FOR EMISSIONS REASONS ONLY, IT'LL RUN BETTER IN THE 180'S)" is also false. A colder engine leeches more combustion heat, which means less power. As long as you avoid the timing retard tables that occur at the hotter temps, the engine will be more efficient the hotter it runs, meaning more power. Before you or anyone says it just to be argumentative, yes, you dont' want it so hot causes parts to destruct or melt.[/QUOTE]
Actually, both are true. As the fans cool the coolant towards the stat opening point it closes down to keep the coolant in the range GM wanted it for emissions reasons. Now if you are operating just out of timing retard and do some spirited driving you will see the temp go up into timing retard. But if you start a little lower you will stay in the zone where max hp can be made. The real problem with higher operating temps is that the metal around the combustion cylinder heats unevenly and hot spots occur which cause detonation. Running a little cooler ECT's helps reduce these. There is a sweet spot for ECT's for power, just a little cooler than GM chose:
02-14-2012, 12:32 PM
#32
Le Mans Master
^You're contradicting yourself, and your chart isn't helping you.
02-14-2012, 01:07 PM
#33
Safety Car
Not at all. No contradictions and the chart shows best power at ECT's a little lower than stock.
Your idea of heat is energy, and hotter is more efficient is absolutely true but with a caveat you're missing. It's better until you lose control of the combustion burn. For efficiency and emissions GM designs our engines to run at the edge of detonation for the majority of their usage, which is cruising. When asked for max power with these high temps they have to back out timing or risk losing control of the combustion event. They would rather lose some power by reducing timing then get into detonation.
But if you run the engine just a little cooler you can run that timing without the risk of detonation. You're giving the engine a little bigger operating margin, that's all.
Back to the OP: YES, it's a good idea to run a 160. It won't hurt anything, and when cruising at highway speeds you will run cooler. It won't help much in stop and go conditions.without changing your fan percentages.
Your idea of heat is energy, and hotter is more efficient is absolutely true but with a caveat you're missing. It's better until you lose control of the combustion burn. For efficiency and emissions GM designs our engines to run at the edge of detonation for the majority of their usage, which is cruising. When asked for max power with these high temps they have to back out timing or risk losing control of the combustion event. They would rather lose some power by reducing timing then get into detonation.
But if you run the engine just a little cooler you can run that timing without the risk of detonation. You're giving the engine a little bigger operating margin, that's all.
Back to the OP: YES, it's a good idea to run a 160. It won't hurt anything, and when cruising at highway speeds you will run cooler. It won't help much in stop and go conditions.without changing your fan percentages.
02-14-2012, 01:23 PM
#34
Former Vendor
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St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
General Motors agenda....
[QUOTE
But this statement:
"The stat is closing off flow trying to keep the engine in the high 190's" tells me you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how a thermostat works. The tstat is NOT trying to close in the "high 190's". It's the opposite. Once temp hits 187F, the tstat starts to open (when it is fully open is up to debate, but it's open enough to keep my engine temp in the low 190's at speed, or at idle with the fans on).
Additionally, " (FOR EMISSIONS REASONS ONLY, IT'LL RUN BETTER IN THE 180'S)" is also false. A colder engine leeches more combustion heat, which means less power. As long as you avoid the timing retard tables that occur at the hotter temps, the engine will be more efficient the hotter it runs, meaning more power. Before you or anyone says it just to be argumentative, yes, you dont' want it so hot causes parts to destruct or melt.
But this statement:
"The stat is closing off flow trying to keep the engine in the high 190's" tells me you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how a thermostat works. The tstat is NOT trying to close in the "high 190's". It's the opposite. Once temp hits 187F, the tstat starts to open (when it is fully open is up to debate, but it's open enough to keep my engine temp in the low 190's at speed, or at idle with the fans on).
Additionally, " (FOR EMISSIONS REASONS ONLY, IT'LL RUN BETTER IN THE 180'S)" is also false. A colder engine leeches more combustion heat, which means less power. As long as you avoid the timing retard tables that occur at the hotter temps, the engine will be more efficient the hotter it runs, meaning more power. Before you or anyone says it just to be argumentative, yes, you dont' want it so hot causes parts to destruct or melt.
They forgot to tell you that in this test they removed
4 out of 6 quarts of the test engine's motor oil.
General Motors agenda, with respect to calibrating these vehicles, is likely NOT
the same as the agenda of the purchaser.
Hey, AIRBUSPILOT.... Does your TELEVISION NOT WORK simply because you can't give me
an engineering dissertation on the theory and principals of manipulated electron distribution as it pertains
to photon arrangement and distribution?????
My guess is that despite your inability/reluctance to provide the information I'm asking for....
Your television still has a pretty good picture....You dig?
That image of the accelerated cylinder wall wear by temperature is trash and I find it
copy/pasted (which means KNOWLEDGE!
) all over the forums.Search this forum and it's millions of pages and members and show me just ONE SINGLE BIT OF EVIDENCE
that someone with a 160 stat suffered accelerated cylinder wall wear...
OH, you can't find one...???
Lets stop confusing people and put that useless image where it belongs.... In the trash....
Again people... we're talking 1,000's of installs with NOT ONE COMPLAINT or adverse circumstance.
Nuff Said.
Chuck CoW
02-14-2012, 01:28 PM
#35
Le Mans Master
^At least you acknowledge you are unable to explain yourself.
Which should make people wonder what else you don't know.
Which should make people wonder what else you don't know.
02-14-2012, 01:34 PM
#36
Le Mans Master
Not at all. No contradictions and the chart shows best power at ECT's a little lower than stock.
Your idea of heat is energy, and hotter is more efficient is absolutely true but with a caveat you're missing. It's better until you lose control of the combustion burn. For efficiency and emissions GM designs our engines to run at the edge of detonation for the majority of their usage, which is cruising. When asked for max power with these high temps they have to back out timing or risk losing control of the combustion event. They would rather lose some power by reducing timing then get into detonation.
But if you run the engine just a little cooler you can run that timing without the risk of detonation. You're giving the engine a little bigger operating margin, that's all.
Back to the OP: YES, it's a good idea to run a 160. It won't hurt anything, and when cruising at highway speeds you will run cooler. It won't help much in stop and go conditions.without changing your fan percentages.
Your idea of heat is energy, and hotter is more efficient is absolutely true but with a caveat you're missing. It's better until you lose control of the combustion burn. For efficiency and emissions GM designs our engines to run at the edge of detonation for the majority of their usage, which is cruising. When asked for max power with these high temps they have to back out timing or risk losing control of the combustion event. They would rather lose some power by reducing timing then get into detonation.
But if you run the engine just a little cooler you can run that timing without the risk of detonation. You're giving the engine a little bigger operating margin, that's all.
Back to the OP: YES, it's a good idea to run a 160. It won't hurt anything, and when cruising at highway speeds you will run cooler. It won't help much in stop and go conditions.without changing your fan percentages.
If you read what I wrote above, I'm pointing out that running the engine using the stock 187* thermostat causes no harm, but lets the engine run in a more efficient (warmer) temp. You will not encounter detonation in that temp range. And since that is the case, running it cooler than necessary has no benefits, and, according to Smokey Yunick and Bill Jenkens, there is a power loss going from 200* to 180*. This statement holds true even in our computer controlled engines, as the table I provided above shows that there is no computer nanny interference in that temp range.
And what possible benefit is there to running a colder engine temp at a highway cruise speed?
This other talk of cylinder wall wear, or running an engine excessively hot are just red herrings.
Last edited by AirBusPilot; 02-14-2012 at 01:36 PM.
02-14-2012, 01:58 PM
#37
Safety Car
The benefit to running cooler highway temps is that when you want to use the potential power you have some margin and can do so without the engine going right into retard timing mode.
Chuck: Airbus didn't put up that chart, I did. I didn't do it for it's cylinder wall wear info, but for it's show of best power temps Vs GM's design temps.
We are in agreement that a 160 is a good mod, no matter if otherwise stock or not.
Chuck: Airbus didn't put up that chart, I did. I didn't do it for it's cylinder wall wear info, but for it's show of best power temps Vs GM's design temps.
We are in agreement that a 160 is a good mod, no matter if otherwise stock or not.
02-14-2012, 02:37 PM
#38
Former Vendor
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St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
I have no problem with you or what you posted....
The benefit to running cooler highway temps is that when you want to use the potential power you have some margin and can do so without the engine going right into retard timing mode.
Chuck: Airbus didn't put up that chart, I did. I didn't do it for it's cylinder wall wear info, but for it's show of best power temps Vs GM's design temps.
We are in agreement that a 160 is a good mod, no matter if otherwise stock or not.
Chuck: Airbus didn't put up that chart, I did. I didn't do it for it's cylinder wall wear info, but for it's show of best power temps Vs GM's design temps.
We are in agreement that a 160 is a good mod, no matter if otherwise stock or not.
I have no problem with you or what you posted and please don't feel as if I intended to heckle you...
Most of us recognize that the graph is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.
The graph showing the timing being added and subtracted by temp carries much more weight
and pretty much confirms what I've said.
AIRBUSPILOT can gloat in what he seems to feel is some sort of intellectual victory or whatever.
My reluctance to repeat all of the "information and facts" that's I've posted on this very forum
over, and over, and over are there for all to see and again, I'm not lacking info or experience
but I run a large shop, have a significant online tuning business, and enough other duties and commitments
that, this evening especially, I'm NOT staying till 5am like last night just so I can REPEAT the STAT STORY
that's available in quadruplicate already on this forum for all to see....
If you look.....You'll find it.
Chuck CoW
02-14-2012, 02:45 PM
#39
Safety Car
It seems some will have to agree to disagree. If AB wants to use a manual switch to over-ride something that can be programmed into the ECM and also assisted by using a 160° thermostat that is his option.
Engine temps also affect the IAT table as well, once the ECM starts seeing 88° IAT intake temps it is retarding the timing. Hot underhood temps due to a hot engine can cause this as well. Once those IAT temps get into the 110° range you are losing about 12° of timing advance.
The IAT sensor sits right above the front of the motor in the zone between the radiator and engine.
The cooler you can get the engine to run in the optimum power zone (not the optimum emmission zone which is where the stock stat puts you) the better off you are in regards to detonation, power and keeping the engine running in the optimum power zone.
Engine temps also affect the IAT table as well, once the ECM starts seeing 88° IAT intake temps it is retarding the timing. Hot underhood temps due to a hot engine can cause this as well. Once those IAT temps get into the 110° range you are losing about 12° of timing advance.
The IAT sensor sits right above the front of the motor in the zone between the radiator and engine.
The cooler you can get the engine to run in the optimum power zone (not the optimum emmission zone which is where the stock stat puts you) the better off you are in regards to detonation, power and keeping the engine running in the optimum power zone.
Last edited by TJay74; 02-14-2012 at 03:20 PM.
02-14-2012, 06:04 PM
#40
Le Mans Master
The benefit to running cooler highway temps is that when you want to use the potential power you have some margin and can do so without the engine going right into retard timing mode.
Chuck: Airbus didn't put up that chart, I did. I didn't do it for it's cylinder wall wear info, but for it's show of best power temps Vs GM's design temps.
We are in agreement that a 160 is a good mod, no matter if otherwise stock or not.
Chuck: Airbus didn't put up that chart, I did. I didn't do it for it's cylinder wall wear info, but for it's show of best power temps Vs GM's design temps.
We are in agreement that a 160 is a good mod, no matter if otherwise stock or not.
Sorry Chuck confused you for me with your chart. I'm not sure if he didn't like it because he thought I posted it, or if he has an argument he can articulate against it. Speaking of which, he doesn't have time to explain his reasoning, but has all day to make cartoon drawings and every changing font size to say he can't be bothered.
