Supercharger
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,186
Likes: 2
From: Woodinville WA
That's just your speculation, with no basis in fact. The GT-11 cam is actually very high lift which can actually be more of a strain on valve springs than a more aggressive profile with a lower lift. My opinion is they got kind of lazy with cam development after losing John. Is the GT-11 a best fit cam for an LS1, LS6, LS2, and LS3? Because they use it exclusively for all those packages. They showed some creativity for the LS7 though and offer more aggressive choices for it.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,331
Likes: 18
From: Missouri City Texas
Then I must assume you consider Lingenfelter a Bubba Shop that doesn't know what they're doing. They feel heads are needed, along with a cam, to see 440 rwhp, so that they don't have to run a radical cam. They also don't offer an engine package with cam/heads above that horsepower. Maybe they don't feel a cam/heads engine is that reliable at the higher horsepowers so they don't offer one. I really doubt that they would offer a 3/36,000 warranty on their engine packages if they felt it was going to be a liability to them. They offer plenty of other, higher horsepower packages with superchargers, but not with a cam/heads only package.
You can make cheap high horsepower all day long, but doing it with reliability is questionable. Apparently Lingenfelter knows something about horsepower vs reliability vs drivability with cam/heads only packages and chooses not to go the cheap high horsepower route. They have a reputation to maintain.
You can make cheap high horsepower all day long, but doing it with reliability is questionable. Apparently Lingenfelter knows something about horsepower vs reliability vs drivability with cam/heads only packages and chooses not to go the cheap high horsepower route. They have a reputation to maintain.
The cam they use is VERY dated and many cams make much better power with less lift and better lobe technology without sacrificing drivability.
They can charge whatever they want for whatever reason they want. It's easy to warranty packages that make poor power. It's a good business model. People want mods and a warranty, so you offer a warranty and mod to a very low power level that nothing internally would ever break (their warranty doesn't cover the rest of the drivetrain though).
We're getting WAY off track though of the original post.
To answer the OP in a simple way....
No, you don't need to add anything at moderate boost levels (10psi and below). With a good tune people have run supercharger setups for 100k miles+ on the stock block. It'd be very easy to pick up 150rwhp at 8psi and have an incredibly safe setup. Run a conservative tune and then throw meth on top of it for even more safety.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,150
Likes: 379
From: Detroit
Floyd is absolutely right on what he is saying. I would never spend money on anything lingenfelter for lackluster results. You are paying for their name and warranty not performance. You don't need a radical cam to hit 475rwhp or heads at all with a LS3. It's crazy how people buy into shops like lingenfelter and hennessey. Lot better install and tuners out there that will give you more bang for the buck instead of feeling like you got robbed.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
That's just your speculation, with no basis in fact. The GT-11 cam is actually very high lift which can actually be more of a strain on valve springs than a more aggressive profile with a lower lift. My opinion is they got kind of lazy with cam development after losing John. Is the GT-11 a best fit cam for an LS1, LS6, LS2, and LS3? Because they use it exclusively for all those packages. They showed some creativity for the LS7 though and offer more aggressive choices for it.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,186
Likes: 2
From: Woodinville WA
I've also used the GT-11 cam, not that it qualifies me as an expert... But I wouldn't choose it again. I've also met a couple of other GT-11 users that ended up changing to something different for much better results. What are your experiences with it, are you satisfied with it?
Last edited by ctusser; Apr 3, 2012 at 04:16 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
I obviously don't consider them to be a "bubba shop", but I would also consider someone a fool to spend 10k to get 440rwhp out of an LS3.
The cam they use is VERY dated and many cams make much better power with less lift and better lobe technology without sacrificing drivability.
They can charge whatever they want for whatever reason they want. It's easy to warranty packages that make poor power. It's a good business model. People want mods and a warranty, so you offer a warranty and mod to a very low power level that nothing internally would ever break (their warranty doesn't cover the rest of the drivetrain though).
We're getting WAY off track though of the original post.
For heaven's sake let's not get off subject like your post #9 in which you said "A supercharger isn't worth the price of admission if you're going to be making 475 at the wheels."
To answer the OP in a simple way....
No, you don't need to add anything at moderate boost levels (10psi and below). With a good tune people have run supercharger setups for 100k miles+ on the stock block. It'd be very easy to pick up 150rwhp at 8psi and have an incredibly safe setup. Run a conservative tune and then throw meth on top of it for even more safety.
The cam they use is VERY dated and many cams make much better power with less lift and better lobe technology without sacrificing drivability.
They can charge whatever they want for whatever reason they want. It's easy to warranty packages that make poor power. It's a good business model. People want mods and a warranty, so you offer a warranty and mod to a very low power level that nothing internally would ever break (their warranty doesn't cover the rest of the drivetrain though).
We're getting WAY off track though of the original post.
For heaven's sake let's not get off subject like your post #9 in which you said "A supercharger isn't worth the price of admission if you're going to be making 475 at the wheels."
To answer the OP in a simple way....
No, you don't need to add anything at moderate boost levels (10psi and below). With a good tune people have run supercharger setups for 100k miles+ on the stock block. It'd be very easy to pick up 150rwhp at 8psi and have an incredibly safe setup. Run a conservative tune and then throw meth on top of it for even more safety.
Last edited by JoesC5; Apr 3, 2012 at 04:15 PM.
Thread Starter
Blue on Black
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 161
Likes: 9
From: nj
Wow you guys bring a lot to the table. As for the cam just would like to go with some bolt on things. Not into opening up the block think I will go with the SC at 8psi looks to me the best way to go
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Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
At least I've qualified it as an opinion I've also used the GT-11 cam, not that it qualifies me as an expert... But I wouldn't choose it again. I've also met a couple of other GT-11 users that ended up changing to something different for much better results. What are your experiences with it, are you satisfied with it?
I've also used the GT-11 cam, not that it qualifies me as an expert... But I wouldn't choose it again. I've also met a couple of other GT-11 users that ended up changing to something different for much better results. What are your experiences with it, are you satisfied with it?I'm not qualified to offer a "fact" or an "opinion"on that particular cam, but I can offer negative opinions on other "hot" cams I have used since 1961 when I was running a Isky 7000Z cam in my 1932 Ford 3 window coupe in A/G, plus other cams since then.
I also can give my opinion on running a PD supercharger as that's what I have on my Mercedes DD.
While you may have some reservations about the cam Lingenfelter chooses to use in their head/cam engine package, that was not the intend of my post. I was comparing the cost of a heads/cam package and a supercharger package out of the same shop, in response to the ridiculous claim that one can get the same horsepower from a cammed engine for 1/8 the cost of a supercharger. In fact, I presented "facts" that Lingenfelter charges $1,000 more for a 440 rwhp cam/heads package then for a 516 rwhp supercharger package. That's a fact Jack.
Last edited by JoesC5; Apr 3, 2012 at 05:00 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,186
Likes: 2
From: Woodinville WA
Reread my post. I said "I think...." that qualifies as an opinion. I made no statement of fact. The laughs on you.
I'm not qualified to offer an "fact" on that particular cam, but I can offer negative opinions on other "hot" cams I have used since 1961 when I was running a Isky 7000Z cam in my 1932 Ford 3 window coupe in A/G, plus other cams since then.
I also can give my opinion on running a PD supercharger as that's what I have on my Mercedes DD.
I'm not qualified to offer an "fact" on that particular cam, but I can offer negative opinions on other "hot" cams I have used since 1961 when I was running a Isky 7000Z cam in my 1932 Ford 3 window coupe in A/G, plus other cams since then.
I also can give my opinion on running a PD supercharger as that's what I have on my Mercedes DD.
I guess you trumped me since other "hot cams" in the past did not work out for you. 
I guess I'll just take my relevant knowledge and experience with the cam and package in question and tuck my tail b/t my legs and
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
I don't have a clue as to what your qualifications are on selecting camshaft designs, but I wager that Lengenfelter has more qualifications then you. I'll go with Lingenfelter over you.
Last edited by JoesC5; Apr 3, 2012 at 05:03 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,150
Likes: 379
From: Detroit
No one cares how much you love lingenfelter and how you will let them financially rape you. How can you even justify them overcharging for less power? They aren't the only shop out that that will do a good job they are just one of few that will use high mark up and gimmicks to gain loyalty from customers like you.
OP you don't need to forge you block at 8psi but your tune is the key in all of this. If that isn't right you will have big problems.
OP you don't need to forge you block at 8psi but your tune is the key in all of this. If that isn't right you will have big problems.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,186
Likes: 2
From: Woodinville WA
I'm not trying to "trump" you. Ask Lingenfelter to put in another cam of your choice and I doubt that that will lower the cost. That was the intention of my post. To show that a cam/head package isn't 1/8 the cost of a supercharger. It's a "fact" that Lingenfelter charges $1,000 more for their head/cam package then their supercharger package. Lingenfelter putting in a cam that meets your "approval" isn't going to lower their price, but might possibly increase it if they believe it might lower the reliablilty of their engine package.
I don't have a clue as to what your qualifications are on selecting camshaft designs, but I wager that Lengenfelter has more qualifications then you. I'll go with Lingenfelter over you.
I don't have a clue as to what your qualifications are on selecting camshaft designs, but I wager that Lengenfelter has more qualifications then you. I'll go with Lingenfelter over you.
When I originally was performance shopping I went with Lingenfelter b/c of their reputation. At that time they only had two cam options for my LS6 application the GT-11 and the GT1-1. The GT-11 being the mild choice. They talked me into the GT-11, and their argument was based on behavioral aspects and they said nothing about reliability concerns with the bigger cam. The GT-11 although mild in intake duration and LSA has huge lift specs 215/231 .631"/.644" 1.7 ratio 118. It is my opinion and experience that a cam with a smaller LSA and more intake duration, but with lower lift would be less stressful on valve springs for long term reliability and also produce more power. I have spoken with others with the same experience as me. I don't know why Lingenfelter only offers one cam option for all these applications. Most good cam grinders disagree with this philosophy, as LS1, LS6/LS2 and LS3 heads all have very different flow characteristics. Also when bolt on LS3's get ~420whp adding a cam and heads should net more than 20-25whp IMO.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
Well I see where I went wrong. I came off a little strong on my first post and got you all cranky and defensive
When I originally was performance shopping I went with Lingenfelter b/c of their reputation. At that time they only had two cam options for my LS6 application the GT-11 and the GT1-1. The GT-11 being the mild choice. They talked me into the GT-11, and their argument was based on behavioral aspects and they said nothing about reliability concerns with the bigger cam. The GT-11 although mild in intake duration and LSA has huge lift specs 215/231 .631"/.644" 1.7 ratio 118. It is my opinion and experience that a cam with a smaller LSA and more intake duration, but with lower lift would be less stressful on valve springs for long term reliability and also produce more power. I have spoken with others with the same experience as me. I don't know why Lingenfelter only offers one cam option for all these applications. Most good cam grinders disagree with this philosophy, as LS1, LS6/LS2 and LS3 heads all have very different flow characteristics. Also when bolt on LS3's get ~420whp adding a cam and heads should net more than 20-25whp IMO.
When I originally was performance shopping I went with Lingenfelter b/c of their reputation. At that time they only had two cam options for my LS6 application the GT-11 and the GT1-1. The GT-11 being the mild choice. They talked me into the GT-11, and their argument was based on behavioral aspects and they said nothing about reliability concerns with the bigger cam. The GT-11 although mild in intake duration and LSA has huge lift specs 215/231 .631"/.644" 1.7 ratio 118. It is my opinion and experience that a cam with a smaller LSA and more intake duration, but with lower lift would be less stressful on valve springs for long term reliability and also produce more power. I have spoken with others with the same experience as me. I don't know why Lingenfelter only offers one cam option for all these applications. Most good cam grinders disagree with this philosophy, as LS1, LS6/LS2 and LS3 heads all have very different flow characteristics. Also when bolt on LS3's get ~420whp adding a cam and heads should net more than 20-25whp IMO.
Personally, I like the mild cam(stock) in my Z06 with it's 600 RPM idle, smooth as silk, yet screams when you get on it. I also like the PD blower on my Mercedes as it greatly increases the car's performance with absolutely no bad side affects. Both cars give me 29 MPG crusing at 75 MPH. I guess old age is catching up with me.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,725
Likes: 115
From: Phoenix AZ
This thread makes my head hurt like the "should I get better speakers" thread.
Does any of our supporting tuners offer a cai/heads/cam/headers package that generates 100+ RWHP. I am assuming the 430HP LS3 gets 365RWHP. What is their pricing.
Does any of our supporting tuners offer a cai/heads/cam/headers package that generates 100+ RWHP. I am assuming the 430HP LS3 gets 365RWHP. What is their pricing.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,186
Likes: 2
From: Woodinville WA
Just about any tuner will get close to that with a medium cam and bolt-ons without touching the heads. Call someone reputable like ECS for specifics.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,725
Likes: 115
From: Phoenix AZ
ECS $3100 35-40RWHP package no cam/heads
http://www.eastcoastsupercharging.co...ategory_id=105
So heads/cam would need to generate more 60RWHP. I will assume at least $1500 for this install. So I am assuming $4500-$5000 for 100RWHP cai/heads/cam/headers and $8500-$9000 for the supercharger.
http://www.eastcoastsupercharging.co...ategory_id=105
So heads/cam would need to generate more 60RWHP. I will assume at least $1500 for this install. So I am assuming $4500-$5000 for 100RWHP cai/heads/cam/headers and $8500-$9000 for the supercharger.