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GM already has a test and R&D center at the Nürburgring - if the Ring times didn’t matter they would not have it there. Porsche, BMW, Jaguar, Aston, and more have facilities there.
Track testing can be done anywhere at any track in the US or outside to dial in a car to maximize performance.
The ring is a unique and is an extreme set of corners that would never be encountered on any man made track deliberately.
It is a brutal 13 mile mountain road with guardrails planted along side it.
Having said that, - what it is is a Motorsport challenge found nowhere on this planet.
GM has not been able to achieve near the times that Porsche and other serious sports cars. Porsche got Michelin to make a “street tire” that was really a race tire in disguise for their 911 GT 2 and GT 3 RS timed runs.
In contrast, GM brags about running with as delivered alignment, tires and totally stock boost etc. Porsche guts the car, turns up the boost and puts a race set up on the car driven by a pro race car driver.
We plan to change that.
We are using Pirelli Trofeo R tires and our total suspension upgrades and yes, like Porsche, we have upped the boost a little. Of course our dual inter cooler package which is also what has held the C7 Z06 back with high intake air temps.
I was told to get a “Ring Expert” to set the time. Well by the time I make my run, I will add 300 more miles to my 720 miles that I already have on the track.
I have been racing for 40 years and run against the same “experts” here in the US so no worries.
Now unless GM steps up and gives us some of their private time, like they did for Porsche, we will have to get our best time during a normal track day. We are signed up for the next 4 full track days. I also have a meeting with the track officials to see if we can get a good price for 30 minutes alone on track. They wanted $30,000 for 1 hour, which is out of the question.
We will see.
Our C7 Z06 arrives in Germany on Monday. I head over in 2 weeks and will stay there for 17 days.
I was told to get a “Ring Expert” to set the time. Well by the time I make my run, I will add 300 more miles to my 720 miles that I already have on the track.
I have been racing for 40 years and run against the same “experts” here in the US so no worries...
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Stay tuned.
Way to go, Lou!! I expect you don't remember me, but you helped me down at Cresson with figuring out what shocks to buy for my '00 FRC, WAY back in the day. You told me the best shocks for me to get were some '04 Z06 shocks from GM, not yours! Things like that stay in the memory for a lifetime.
I think beating all those car’s asses at VIR accomplishes the same thing. And in a far more controlled environment, such that the results are less able to be challenged and can easily be repeated.
Originally Posted by Telepierre
Good arguments and I agree with you Nurburing lap times can (generally speaking) maintain and/or improve image and reputation. I think we are in disagreement on the degree of importance a ring time is to image and reputation. I wager, Image and reputation is not built solely on marketing and for sure not on feeble perceptions. I think the ultimate measuring stick of were a product stands with the market is sales, period. Easy to vote with your mouth...a bit more convincing when you vote with the wallet..
Point remains C7s have enjoyed sales at par if not better for certain segments (see Z06) than the predecessors WITHOUT the ring. C7s also enjoys a wide margin on sales with competition with ring "bragging" rights...
Finally, I can tell you that as an international business developer practitioner, Corvette enjoys a great degree of respect among knowledgeable car enthusiasts. Some can afford to buy the car but most buckle at the outrageous tariffs, ownership tax and costly import obstacles.
Look up the price and ownership tax for a new Z06 in let's say Germany or Italy, or UK and you will quickly understand Corvette does not have an image problem. Corvette has a market protectionism problem and they have made it abundantly clear that is not their problem (see Corvette statements on ZR1 exports to EU).
Excellent analysis, Messieurs. To want to buy a Vette here, you have to be a resistance fighter at heart. Just the title for a ZO6: 23 K€.
Stereotypes about US cars have been dispelled since the C5 and seeing one in real life arouses curiosity but the Vettes have a huge sympathy capital, just these ******* taxes and margins of greedy importers....
Good arguments and I agree with you Nurburing lap times can (generally speaking) maintain and/or improve image and reputation. I think we are in disagreement on the degree of importance a ring time is to image and reputation. I wager, Image and reputation is not built solely on marketing and for sure not on feeble perceptions. I think the ultimate measuring stick of were a product stands with the market is sales, period. Easy to vote with your mouth...a bit more convincing when you vote with the wallet..
Point remains C7s have enjoyed sales at par if not better for certain segments (see Z06) than the predecessors WITHOUT the ring. C7s also enjoys a wide margin on sales with competition with ring "bragging" rights...
Finally, I can tell you that as an international business developer practitioner, Corvette enjoys a great degree of respect among knowledgeable car enthusiasts. Some can afford to buy the car but most buckle at the outrageous tariffs, ownership tax and costly import obstacles.
Look up the price and ownership tax for a new Z06 in let's say Germany or Italy, or UK and you will quickly understand Corvette does not have an image problem. Corvette has a market protectionism problem and they have made it abundantly clear that is not their problem (see Corvette statements on ZR1 exports to EU).
I think we are actually in agreement for the most part, though let me clarify a few things. I don't think Ring time is the ONLY thing required to improve image and change minds but that it matters to enthusiasts and some buyers.
Sales is a measurement of the performance and in my opinion, Corvettes are not performing to it's potential in other markets. Corvettes are great cars and my main point is regarding the C8's massive potential and what can be done to help achieve it. Ring times is just one of the tools to get there.
I'm fully aware of the price differences in other countries and American cars are not the only ones that have to deal with the price difference and taxes. Certain German cars selling in Asia cost close to double so how can the C8 overcome some of that because there are people who can afford expensive cars out there. Not saying image alone can overcome this part of it but that would be a good discussion at another time.
The C7 did wonderfully in sales for the most part but again, I'm referring more specifically about the potential of what the C8 can become. I agree and know many people who love and respect Corvettes. But unfortunately there are still too many people, potential buyers, out there ignorant of these facts. There are many people who still assume Corvettes are heavy muscle cars that's only good for going in a straight line which we know is ridiculous.
You make good points about GM's feeling towards international sales in the past. But would they feel the same about a brand new C8 mid engine platform VS the ZR1 aka end of the line C7 car with a short retail lifespan?
Your beliefs are based on GM's past and you know what, it may very well turn out to be the way they operate again. My belief is that the C8 is a whole new ballgame and my hope is that GM will do more to realize it's full potential. For now it's just all speculations and forum chatter. Time will tell.
I think we are actually in agreement for the most part, though let me clarify a few things. I don't think Ring time is the ONLY thing required to improve image and change minds but that it matters to enthusiasts and some buyers.
Sales is a measurement of the performance and in my opinion, Corvettes are not performing to it's potential in other markets. Corvettes are great cars and my main point is regarding the C8's massive potential and what can be done to help achieve it. Ring times is just one of the tools to get there.
I'm fully aware of the price differences in other countries and American cars are not the only ones that have to deal with the price difference and taxes. Certain German cars selling in Asia cost close to double so how can the C8 overcome some of that because there are people who can afford expensive cars out there. Not saying image alone can overcome this part of it but that would be a good discussion at another time.
The C7 did wonderfully in sales for the most part but again, I'm referring more specifically about the potential of what the C8 can become. I agree and know many people who love and respect Corvettes. But unfortunately there are still too many people, potential buyers, out there ignorant of these facts. There are many people who still assume Corvettes are heavy muscle cars that's only good for going in a straight line which we know is ridiculous.
You make good points about GM's feeling towards international sales in the past. But would they feel the same about a brand new C8 mid engine platform VS the ZR1 aka end of the line C7 car with a short retail lifespan?
Your beliefs are based on GM's past and you know what, it may very well turn out to be the way they operate again. My belief is that the C8 is a whole new ballgame and my hope is that GM will do more to realize it's full potential. For now it's just all speculations and forum chatter. Time will tell.
Well put and I like your optimism in reference to the new C8. I have do admit there is a bit of FE/space for golf bags in trunk "nostalgia" lingering in me but It may as well be new times require new thinking and platform positioning. Personally and competitively, I'll be very impressed with Chevrolet if they offer both FE and ME. You are right, time will tell.
Well put and I like your optimism in reference to the new C8. I have do admit there is a bit of FE/space for golf bags in trunk "nostalgia" lingering in me but It may as well be new times require new thinking and platform positioning. Personally and competitively, I'll be very impressed with Chevrolet if they offer both FE and ME. You are right, time will tell.
Agreed, I would be very happy if they offer both FE and ME. The market is there, not sure why they wouldn't.
I think a lot credit can go to Mr. Mero regarding the drivability of the last couple of gens of the Corvette.
I hope GM slipped him a ZR1 on his way out the door...
Never drove the C6, but understand it was a very nice car...the C7 (Z06 at least) is just amazing.
It only has one "weakness" IMO: On-Power Traction.
Every Z owner has had at least one "HOLY ****" moment(s) before gaining the necessary respect needed to drive the car with its mighty LT-4.
My advice to anyone considering a buy is to never take off the nannies unless you REALLY AREan excellent driver...not if you just "think" you are.
Good luck and Best Wishes Jim Mero, and thank you.
09-11-2018, 02:13 PM
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