The dealership is right...of course it's your money but don't make the dealer out to be the dumb one. There's really nothing special about the car when you get down to nuts and bolts. There's a study done by Ford that shows particulate spiking for the first couple of thousand miles after an oil change indicating more frequent oil changes can lead to more wear.

 

Can we agree that the synthetic blend that originally ships in the car is inferior to the synthetic products that we're replacing it with?

 

First, oil is like a religion to a lot of people so I'll try to tread as lightly as possible here to avoid upsetting anybody with my opinions...emphasis on opinion.

To put things into perspective, the worst oil you can buy today is better than the best oil from 30 years ago. To give one case out of millions, I bought an '83 Cavalier new and followed the recommended maintenance intervals as a minimum from day one. The factory fill oil went 7500 miles and every subsequent oil change was at least 7500 miles, some a little more. Non-synthetic oil was used for its entire life and I beat the crap out of that little 88 HP 2L 4 banger. I drove it to the junkyard at 225K miles (transmission problems) and it was running just as strong as it did on day one, it never used oil, the inside of the engine had zero sludge, and the only thing I had to replace was an alternator.

I've had other similar experiences with a '95 Cadillac (160K miles, friend totaled it), '99 Corvette (used synthetic, 160K miles, sold), and '91 Lumina (180K miles, gave to a friend). My present beater is a '94 Cavalier 3.1L V6/5-speed with 245K miles that has been in the family since new and refuses to break...it gets the best oil, whatever is on sale.

My point...you could run any oil you want, change it at the recommended intervals (or by the oil life indicator like the '95 Cadillac and '99 Corvette above), and your engine will easily make it to 200K miles. If you're into a particular "religion", run your favorite oil and you'll easily make it to 200K miles. Are some oils better than others??? Sure...it just doesn't make any difference to the cars of 99.9% of people in the world. For the other .1%, run synthetic for that extra protection at the higher operating temps seen when, for example, the car is tracked. My daughter and I were hot lapping my ZR-1 one summer and the oil temps would stay over 250°F for an extended time...the OLI asked for an oil change at 1500 Miles.


From a purely engineering perspective, it depends.

Anybody can "design" something if the end result has a 10:1 factor of safety...it'll just cost more, weigh more, and performance be affected. Something properly "engineered" may only need a 2:1 factor of safety so that engineer just increased the profits to the company and the performance for the consumer...win-win. Overdesigning is an "inferior" choice.

When a synthetic blend will provide the same performance, the synthetic is the inferior choice. For the low % of people needing the high temperature performance of a synthetic, the synthetic blend is the inferior choice. So it depends...in your case, a synthetic is a good choice but don't infer that to mean its a good choice for everybody.

 

Alright - I finally see where you're coming from! It's more of a duty cycle trade-off.

You're coming from the position that the majority will not benefit from the 'better' fluid, simply because they're not taxing the 'inferior' fluid, as it were.

I can certainly agree with that, I just look(ed) at it in a different way. It's almost a glass-half-empty scenario. My outlook on things like this, though, is that 'it's better to have and not need than need and not have'.

As for the worst oil today being better than 30 years ago, it may even be closer to 15 (and hell, maybe even 10). We're spoiled today with the amount of additive packages available, cleanliness of oils, etc.

Excessive spending when not needed = inferior. I believe that would be the tldr; equation.

 

Never ask an engineer the old "glass half empty/glass half full" paradox...he will tell you it is neither, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

Sorry, I can't help myself...

 

You're killing me over here... You damned mechanical engineers.

 

Dexos1 only applies to 20 and 30 grade oils. There are no 40 grade oils labeled to meet dexos1.

 

When you can buy Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5w-30 dexos 1 approved oil for $27.97 per 5 quart container ($5.60 a quart!) from Wal Mart, I think it's a good choice for everybody who might normally use a semi-synthetic blend.

 

Exactly what I just used. I put in 10 qts though.......I didn't get the memo.

 

You can always let a little out, but I don't think 10-flat will hurt anything.

 

It’s REALLY hard to believe that more frequent oil changes can result in more wear. Sounds like someone (not saying it was you) misinterpreted Ford’s study. Don

 

This depends on 3 things:
A) you know what the factory fill is
B) you know the minutia of details about what you are putting in
C) you have an application where better oil actually does something to prolong the life of the engine.

If you are tracking the car (road race track) then there are a couple of oils that are on the top of the wear-protecting list.
But if you are just crusing along with the occasional back road shenanagans then almost any top rated oil is essentially as good as any other top rated oil.

 

I can't believe we're still on this...

1) We do know exactly what the factory fill is.
2) We do know the minutia of details about the products we're replacing it with.
3) We've established this - it will only benefit road racers and higher-powered applications being driven at a more aggressive level (like myself and any of the other FI or H/C upgraders here).

I'm sorry for coming off as rude, but we've already settled the battle and made peace. There's no reason to stoke the fire.

 

Here is a test done on how long Mobil 1 can go on an oil change...spoiler: you'll be shocked.

http://www.brianschreurs.org/neptune...es/mobil1.html

From the article:

"Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it."

You can read the test and interpret the results yourself. You can also go to the SAE website and buy the Ford/Conoco technical paper...again, interpret the results yourself.

My theory: The new oil has more particulate contaminates than the used oil. In all of the perusal of the different forums (including BITOG), I've never seen a VOA and very rarely do I see a UOA with the particulate count checked. (This literally shocks the hell out of me...I don't know why anybody would neglect that test.) We check new oil EVERY time and I can tell you that without fail, EVERY time the new oil is WAY out of spec on particulate even after we put the oil through a filter when we fill the system. The engine oil filter on our car doesn't catch all particulates on the first pass, some particles take multiple passes. Certain (nowhere close to all) particles that get past the oil filter causes wear and the particles produced cause a certain amount of wear themselves. It takes a certain amount of time for this process to stop.

Here's another interesting test done by Consumer Reports:

http://www.xs11.com/xs11-info/articl...july-1996.html

It should be noted the 60,000 mile CR test was done in 1996 with oils meeting the ILSAC GF-1 specification. The test conditions would be considered to be "severe" which would require 3000 mile oil changes and they had test groups with 3k, 6k and 12k mile oil change intervals. Of interest, none of the oils did better than any of the others including the synthetics. The test using 12000 mile oil change intervals showed no difference with the 3000 mile test.

The Mobil 1 test above was done in '02/'03 with ILSAC GF-3 specification oil. To put this in perspective, we now have the ILSAC GF-5 specification and the dexos 1 specification is even tougher than GF-5. With that said, anybody adhering to the old 3000 mile oil change intervals from the '60s really needs to take a giant leap forward and join the technology of the 21st century. The day is not as far off as you would imagine for 30k-40k mile oil change intervals...the technology is there, the cost isn't. We run for over 10 years on the same oil on the equipment I specialize on...with 3000 gallons, an oil change is very expensive. Hope this helps.

 

There are exceptions this, however. Certain manufacturers have had to re-work their warranties (specifically the BMW brand and its subsidiaries) from 15,000 mile oil changes down to 7,500 miles after mass numbers of engine failures from the prolonged usage of the oil.

Large equipment functions on a different level, and I don't disagree there, but as we'd covered, those use secondary and tertiary filters with exceptionally good filtration properties.

Those machines are also worth millions of dollars, and are using much higher viscosity fluids, though the principle is the same.

The days of the 3,000 mile / 3 month oil change are, indeed, long gone. Just don't tell the companies that benefit from that notion (JL, VOIC, and even some dealers). However, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence and are countless recorded incidents that point toward changing the fluids (be they synthetic, blend, or dino) in some vehicles at an earlier schedule than in others.

 

Also, for others reading this, it goes without saying that you must follow the oil change interval specified by your vehicle manufacturer to happily retain your warranty (without getting into a legal battle, etc).

That's not to say that they have to change it - just that it must actually be changed (with receipts for both the oil and filter if done yourself).

There are some oils that have been tested to 30,000 miles OIC, but try that after the warranty period expires.

 

That doesn't surprise me for a stated 15k mile oil change interval and no "extenuating" circumstances considered. I don't believe in a one size fits all type of guidance. I go by the GM OLI and absolutely agree with your last sentence...you'll remember above where the OLI on my ZR-1 came on at 1500 miles after some rough track days. Can you imagine if I had just blindly followed a 15k or even 7500 mile interval?

The filters we use in the equipment actually aren't any better than the best filters for our cars...a Beta 7 rating of 75 or 98.7% efficient on a multi-pass test. The oil we use has an equivalent viscosity of about a SAE 30/40 engine oil. We don't have gears and the oil is less for lubrication, more for power transmission...one system transmits 52,000 HP, two systems per "package". Particulate contamination is our biggest enemy but wear caused by particulates is not the primary concern.

 

FYI...receipts are not required if you do it yourself. All you have to have is a written log of it, retained receipts would of course make it easier.

 

Oh, that's good to know! They used to be more **** about that. I'm still paranoid enough from 10 years ago that I keep the filter box and an empty quart along with the receipt.

 

You are posting up some great info but one other question comes to mind and that is:

On this equipment that you go so long on oil changes, is this internal combustion equipment?

Thanks