If you are going to do a direct comparison, please make it fair.

The ECS system does not come with a tune either.
The ECS kit will need plugs as well.

ECS KIT = $4995 Retail
PROCHAGER KIT = $4910 Retail ($5140 w/D1SC)

There is no reason for a D1SC upgrade for 90% of the buyers, when a P1-SC-1 has been proven to make well into the 700+ rwhp range, with dedicated belts.

We just don't want the average guy confused as to why he would need a D1SC, if he is just wanting an outstanding BOLT-ON supercharger system for his C7 Vette, with lots of room to grow. (Not everyone is going to build motors, add meth kits, cams, etc.) So why would we use a bigger blower then needed in the base system?



Once again we would like to know where this is coming from, other then historical data from 12 years ago, (about a LONG outdated system), on a completely different platform. Just as the C7 is not a C4, there is no relevance to this C7 topic, other then just slanderous/malicious intent.

There are countless C5/C6 cars with our standard brackets making AWESOME power and have for years. My apologies in not keeping track of every single one of them, (cause 700-800rwhp cars seem to grow on trees these days) however just in our C7 thread alone I recognize names that are making 770rwhp with stock bracket/system, and another that is up over 925rwhp with stock bracket/system. And with some searching in the C5/C6 sections, its not hard to find other cars well over 1000-1200rwhp with the stock bracket, with addition of a flip drive. (Obviously anything over 1000hp should have a dedicated belt)

But enough with C5/C6's since they have nothing to do with a C7.

There is nothing wrong with having a brand preference, just please make sure to be posting relative current facts, otherwise its slanderous.


Our intercooler is 100% custom.

Every single part of it was made just for the C7, its not something that someone can buy ANYWHERE on the internet.

Core Design. (I am not just talking size, even the bar and plate spacing was changed to reduce pressure drop, across the very long core)

End tanks (Obviously these change per application, we chose to make them out of sheet metal because they are lighter then cast)

Core, End tanks, Welding, MAF mounting bungs, Hose connections.
Every single aspect of it IS custom, just for a C7, from scratch. (There is no more true meaning of the word)....AND EVERYTHING is made here in the U.S.A. and we take HUGE HUGE HUGE pride in this.

What are are staying when we mean "custom" is that we didn't just find a chinese unit that "fits" off of ebay/the net, weld mounting tabs to it, and call it good. (Which would be FAR cheaper, but just not the way we do things) Other "kit producers" have used this approach, and if one takes the time to look at photos around the net, its clear when you can see the branding on the end tanks of the intercooler. (Not saying this doesn't work, or calling out names. Just using it as an example as what the difference is between making something work/fit, and designing a custom unit for a specific application)


This is 100% false. There has been at least one other supercharger kit manufacture for the C7 have the same results.

However, they are also in the business of selling and installing headers. (A revenue source) So we can understand why posting up negative results about a header install after a supercharger install, would not be conducive to business.

We do not manufacture/sell/install headers. So thus, we had no issues posting up our REAL world results, with testing to back it up.

Stock car was dyno'ed
Blower was installed and tuned (made same power as multiple other cars)
Installed headers (Lost power, actually less then the other company/installer)
Car had to be retuned for headers (still couldn't get power level back)
Customer doesn't want to go back to stock exhaust, due to enjoying the sound.

Maybe this is just a fluke that us and another place found, maybe not.
But one thing is for sure, a blower does nothing more then move air, it does not care about headers, no matter the manufacture of supercharger. (As long as pulley is changed to make sure boost level stays the same, if an airflow change happens)

(Seems the issue is that most company's/shops install headers at the same time as the blower, so no true back to back results on a F/I car)

I can say that an Online Magazine will be doing a C7 very shortly, doing a supercharger system first, then adding exhaust and doing videos and data. So soon there will be at least one other place reporting results, but until another company does the same back to back comparison of a known supercharged car (with stock exhaust) then adds headers and reports power changes, we will stand alone it seems.







Regaurding Crank Pulley Attachment

Our "stock" system, will be using the method we have shown in the photos with the cam lock system. (Which has been proven to insane power levels on LS3 camaros using our systems, as well as Mustangs for years) without failure.

We also have had balancers in-house from both companies making SFI units (ATI Performance Products, and Innovators West) inhouse and have for months, that will be options for people that want to go the route of a full style balancer, or have already purchased a balancer for a built motor. (Again, not something 90% of the purchasers will ever need, and it is an unnecessary added cost, but the option is there) Innovators West is what A&A uses.

When constructed out of proper materials (thickness, and rigidity, chemical resistance) that is not an issue. A great number of O.E.M's use this material for charge tubing in turbo applications, even on high psi units such as diesels.

If a customer doesn't want the one piece units for whatever the reason, we can supply them easily with a standard metal pipes, with couplers option. (However this increases the number of possible connection points to come loose over time, and doesn't look as clean of an install either) But if a person really wants it, it could be done.

 

Please don't take that as an attack. I changed my wording a bit to absolutely echo the truth - "only one manufacturer has disclosed a loss of power with LTs". I hope that's more accurate and fair (as it's the truth).

There have also been several shops that did a SC kit and tune, dynoed, and then installed headers - the results were positive. LMR has specifically mentioned this as of last night. You will find the same calling a few of the other honest, reputable dealers here. I'd be happy to PM you the names of your own dealers who have stated or shown otherwise.

I think this is a case of header brand, specific tune, or primary sizing issue to be honest. Without more than one data set, and an entire board of vendors with long track records stating the exact opposite, the findings are more than a little outlying.

Again, that was never meant to discredit, damage, slander, etc. It's simply never been conclusively shown that headers (be they mid-length or LT) lose power on a SC kit for any of the LSx motors, and from what we've seen thus far other than your test, the LT1, as well.

In actuality, I very much like the kit itself - what turned me off was this very issue. If the single data point you have says that the handheld tune will lose power with LTs, while other data points show otherwise, I'd be a fool to use that tune on my car with headers. And, sadly, I'm 8 hours from the closest reputable shop on the forums. The handheld is a big advantage to many of us, but I'm not willing to give up headers.

Anyway, I hope that clears up what I was trying to get across.

Completely agree - and I do love the one-piece. The design is key, and I know you have that down (correct plys, correct bends, clamps, etc). Two of my cars use silicone piping for the IC system from the factory without issues, in fact. Even with a turbo swap and twice the boost through one, it's perfectly fine. If the design is correct, they're pretty foolproof.

The statement is valid in general, though, when kits slap any old tube on there (not the well-designed kits of this crowd, but the cheaper types for other markets).

 

for importance of intercooler is very high and this system is best. Very good work procharger

 

ECS kit was $4995 and Doug/Chris are emailing a tune. Best price I got on a comparable D1SC black procharger kit was $5415 with no tune. Maybe you know of dealers selling less than that but those are the prices I got quoted. I'll have to ask ECS about the plugs, but I was pretty sure the kit came with a set of plugs. If not that is $18 so it isn't a big deal.

As for not using the d1sc, I want a blower that will make 800rwhp. Maybe you can convince other people to see Si/1200s that are comparable to the p1 which would lower the price but for the same size head units a d1 should be compared to the 1500. So in that case you need to add the extra price to have a fair comparison.

IW makes awesome pulleys. That is a nice piece.

 

Nobody thinks about that too often anymore, but a big thank you to your company and all of the other vendors here who keep production in the USA. It doesn't help with costs, but our economy appreciates it.

 

Dynos have been posted of 100% bone stock cars (no cams) that have had S/C's installed (tuned) then had headers installed (and tuned) ?
I have look over this forum, and others, and have not found that yet.
Please send me a link to those results.

If the car(s) being mentioned have a cam installed, then what we have found DOES NOT APPLY, because cam changes have BIG influences on header gains.

Again, we don't sell/manufacture/install headers, so we have NOTING to gain from posting our findings whether they are positive or negative.

We are sad to hear that is what turned you off about our system.

We have never supplied a tune that we state is OK to use with Headers. (Due to the power variance, especially on LSx's in the past, we ALWAYS suggest a custom tune one exhaust mods have been done) C7 is no different. And should be handled that way for your car no matter the system you pick.

FYI: Our car with headers didn't have the "hand held" tune in it, it was custom tuned for the headers. (It had to be, due to the airflow changes)

At this point the only companies even selling a kit with a tune is Pfadt and ProCharger if not mistaken. (could be wrong, but last told ECS kits and A&A were all custom tuned by the installing dealers) Pfadt also makes headers, obviously one would hope they are designed to maximize potential with their supercharger system.


Unrelated Note
We haven't been active on this forum for many years, so its not like this is about proving anything. Its more about just making sure false assumptions are not being made, and that facts are being stated. Which surly everyone can agree is not a bad thing in anyway.

LOTS of questions have been asked about our kit. It seems very little has been asked, or shown about others, but everyone is quick to say "ITS THE BEST" which is odd based on the inquisitive nature of the members of this forum.

We will continue to answer every question as they come. (Sorry for the few that are being held exclusive*, its just the way the industry works when dealing with editors and magazines.)

*Talking about intercooler offerings. However if anyone wants to ask the other manufactures what their airflow testing on various locations of intercoolers resulted in, please feel free.

With the amount of C7 supercharger headunits (for filling orders) I just walked by personally, Please allow me to take a moment and give a public "THANK YOU" to those that have placed their orders, both customers and vendors of this forum, seeing those rows of black/sating/polished blowers, knowing each blower is made just for each customers specific C7 is just awesome to see. Its only a matter of time before a lot of forum members/vendors start posting their own results, which will be VERY exciting to see.


Thanks again,
ATI ProCharger

 

Words like slanderous being used.... This thread just got real!

In order to say the PC kit is comparable to the ECS kit you need to upgrade the blower to the D1, period. So dollar for dollar and bang for your buck not even taking engineering into account, the ECS kit still looks like a better deal. BOTH kits need a damn SFI balancer like the A&A kit!

No one REALLY knows how the PC kit is going to run. On paper and on CAD drawings it looks nice, but we have yet to to see dyno graphs and no shops have had a chance to beat one up yet. (why cant we see a dyno graph for this?) ECS on the other hand we know works, we know makes 850whp with ease with nothing more than headers, meth, and a pulley change. If what PC is saying is all true with the base kit being as capable as ECS's (because they are the same price and that is the picture that is being painted for me) it should be a matter of weeks before we see what one pullied down on meth will do for a side by side comparison. I have no doubt it will be comparable, but we shall see what the graph looks like. I cant lie, I like their advertising, its very well put together and it looks very attractive. They have a history of making a very very nice blower, the F Series superchargers are bad ***. Granted anything under 1100whp im gonna run a Vortech YSI/2200R, but at that limit its F1X or F2 for me.

I need to watch what I say here because I do not want to come off like a PC hater and a ECS fanboy as that is NOT the case. PC makes some amazing superchargers, just personally their kits or brackets have never impressed me. This is where I have to agree with "Unreal", PC mentions 1100whp corvettes on stock PC brackets. I spend a VERY good amount of time in the C5/6 forced induction sections and know most of the guys on here at some personal level with 1000+hp cars. I dont know of a single one running a stock procharger bracket at 1100+ whp. (not saying im not wrong and they are not out there, but its not the norm) Most run ECS, A&A,Cartek, HOB, or Dallas performance brackets, in my experience those are the ones that work best. My non slanderous opinion based on what I see day after day in the real world and on this forum of course. I personally love the F1X and the F2, but I would not in a million years try run them with PC bracketry.

I am happy to hear that PC has explored the use of a full size balancer like A&A, i would personally like to see that become standard. Its worth the additional cost for piece of mind. Less parts to fail and who doesnt like a nice SFI balancer!

The bottom line is that the facts will come out. Come this time next year we will clearly see who made the better kit. Usually doesnt take long for failures to start happening or people start having problems. I have a feeling we are weeks away from the first 1000whp c7 at this rate and I have a feeling it will most likely be a turbo car or a ECS Bracketed YSI/2200r that does it. I would be willing to say within the next 6 months we should be able to see who got it right and who built a turd.

Cant we all just get along!!!

 

Mailing a Tune assumes you already have HP Tuners, or EFIlive or other tuning software. Not something our main stream customers have. Thats why we have tuner kits (no tune, customer tunes themselves) and full systems (comes with a loading platform and tune for a stock vehicle)

We don't sell factory direct. So the quote I gave you was FULL MSRP. Obviously thats not "street price" for as other members have posted what they have paid for systems, and its been below that number.

Don't know what plugs you are getting for $18, but the factory replacement (Iridium) one heat range colder is about $6-8 per plug

There is no need to compare the two. We can look at sales data of head units, and know that their is NO reason for us to put a bigger blower on a car that is not needed for the majority of the people buying the system. (That has plenty of room to grow) Its a waste of $$$, and the D1SC does not carry a CARB certification on it another reason the P1-SC-1 is also used as the base headunit.

You personally WANTED a D1SC, and BLACK finish. Sadly those are in-fact both upgrades for our kits. However if a guy wants a satin kit, we are in fact cheaper even at a retail level, for a tuner kit.

 

I agree with everything Breecher said.

I'm not a procharger hater, in fact I really like the blowers. All I was saying is for the kit I wanted, when I priced it out from a few dealers is was a few hundred more, and that was no tune/etc. So in my case the ECS kit came out to a better deal. As said above, if you want a p1 bolt on kit then they are basically the same cost. I wanted a black kit that would make 800-850rwhp so the ECS kit was the choice I went with. I have an ECS kit on my z06 and it makes 1050+rwhp no issues, so I'm confident the c7 kit will be nice.

At the same time, no one knows. All we have is history so far and the initial results form ECS/Vengance/etc. My experience is what I have to go off of and no one has installed all the kits or even seen them all in person. I have installed all 3 kits on a c6.

All 3 kits (A&A, ECS, PC) are fine for a bolt on and go which will be 90% of the people. If you want 550-600rwhp with just a bolt on kit and maybe some headers, there is really no bad choice. Even the e-force/Maggie/etc are fine for that. When you start pushing it is when the differences really start to shine. I've never seen a PC not have belt/bracket/etc issues when pulleying down and trying to push big power. Like breecher said, all the big power PC setups I've seen run DP brackets, A&A brackets, ECS brackets, HOB brackets, Cartek Brackets, etc.

c7 owners should be happy they have so many good choices. Can't wait to see the A&A kit. I loved my A&A kit and it made good power.

I was just giving the reasons I went with ECS. Proven history, value, big power potential, and top notch customer support. Plus I heard Chris has a really big dog.

 

That is an OPINION.
Not a FACT.

There is NO reason for a D1SC to be used on the base kit, unless someone really wants to make over 700+ rwhp. If they do not, its just excess, and will not have a CARB certification.

That is an OPINION.
Not a FACT.

We have literally HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of cam-lock style crank pulleys being used in the field at all sorts of horsepower levels, without failure. (For 9+ years) Lots of people are aware of the power level ProCharged 2010+ Camaros and 2005+ Mustangs are making using this same design.

If a person wants to again spend the money to upgrade to a SFI unit, they can, however its NOT needed.

If your building a motor for extreme HP, or racing in a class that requires SFI approval, that is the obvious path to be taken.


Please make sure that if a restrictor plate is being used on the ESC car, its being used on the ProCharger car as well.

Thanks for the kind words about our advertising, its a great system, its not hard to talk about its qualities.

And yes, with the PILES of championships won using ProChargers its what drives the development of our superchargers. Anyone that follows racing can see that with ease.

With a 7 second google search for “1200HP ProCharged Vette” this is what I came up with.

1,100

1,114

1,247

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-f...h-video-2.html


There is no "easy" way to search the forums, because you would have to know the exact HP number to search for. But they are out there, they just get lost in the mix sometimes. Using google is obviously a flawed way of trying to find them, but it’s the only way without searching the forums thread by thread.

"Explored" isn't the correct word. Just because we didn't include it in our first post (since we were talking about our "base" kit, that covers 90% of our customers) doesn't mean it wasn't thought about. We work closely with both companies to make sure we have balancer upgrade paths, and that our brackets will in fact work with both of them.


Simply because that's the only available option right now.
Just because its first, doesn't make it best. (Had to say it)


TRUTH! These cars are progressing light years faster then the C5's even dreamed of, and we can't wait for people to start laying down some killer power numbers on the stock systems.


And REALLY can't wait till people can use big blowers like F1-A's C's, X's with that MASSIVE intercooler, and stout bracket we designed with that just in mind.

 

What are you IAT's with the Procharger system? Ambient + what.

 

Since PCtech is here and supportive I can pass on some advice to procharger.

Please rethink or rework how you select/deal with dealers. Once again this is my personal experience but my friends in Utah were a PC dealer for many years, sold a lot of kits, etc. They moved locations and PC dropped them because there was a hack dealer that was nothing more than a single bay garage with some kids working in it that was a dealer within 5 miles of the new shop location. Same thing here in AZ. I have friends here that run top notch shops but they all have been denied being PC dealers because there is some local import shop that is a PC dealer too close to them. The PC dealer has no desire or clue on corvettes/Camaros/etc but the places that do can't even get Prochargers without going through a middle man. Just because a shop sells a few 350Z kits the domestic shops can't get PC kits. That is pretty lame. Just something to pass on to whoever deals with that since it is something I've ran into time and time again over the past few years.

And If you really want my opinion on FI, turbos>all. For a 500-800rwhp car SC's work great, are cheap, go on easy/etc. but for 800+ I would just start planning on turbos .

 

Your observations on headers vs. no headers on a centri C7 has been good intel. I haven't seen any published dyno numbers of a SC/otherwise stock C7 without headers vs. one with headers - if others have runs that show gains maybe they will publish them so everyone can benefit.

It's a good thing. All your information and responses have been very helpful and the PC unit is definitely on my list. I'm back to eating popcorn.

 

Thank you for your comments/suggestions. As soon as I hit "submit reply" on this post, I assure you an email will be sent out to all sales staff and upper management, with a copy of what you have just posted.

Nothing wrong with feed back, and thank you kindly for that.

 

There are a few variables in that question, that make it difficult to answer correctly. Plus given this forums rather harsh judgments on ANY data, it seems that almost any answer I give, will quickly turn into "so-and-so's is better", with out data to back it up.

Some of the variables to consider with that question:

What Boost Level?
Is this just for a Dyno Pull?
What gear dyno'ed in?
Is it a Load Pull?
Or fixed boost level / RPM?
How long was it held at that level?
Whats the wind speed across the core?
Back to back to back runs?
Whats cool down time?
Is this a highway 4th gear pull?

Not trying to avoid the question, but just showing that its a very loaded question.

I can say under the same exact testing conditions this C7 intercooler is more effective then our C5/C6 intercooler. (which people have made darn good power with) As it should, since it is much larger in core size.

Hope that helps at least a little,
ATI ProCharger

 

I would stay with the p-1 with this kit as I have NO plans to add meth and go anywhere near 800 rwhp.

600/600 rwhp is fine on pump gas that my friends is 700 plus under the hood ! Plenty!

Plus I want a self contained blower. No oil lines!

Plus I like the bracket design and pulley as it keeps it tight to the engine. Misses the ABS cleanly!


Like the handheld. I want my install start to finish myself!

Little concerned about air flow through the intercooler that air has to cool the engine.

This kit with an A&A intercooler and vortech or Paxton blower would be perfect.

Plus I like Andy and his drive to put out quality and answer the phone at 1030 pm.

Would buy ESC but don't like the intercooler!
looks like the air from the added dam (GM left off why?)
will just spill out and not force up through the cooler!

Need to see a smoke test!
Like something about all kits but all need things change in my mind!

This kit and the A&A is in the lead right now for my needs!

 

600/600? Confused on that, as without custom tuning you'll be well under those numbers.

In fact, that's probably going to be the same on the other kits without custom tuning. But anyway... you're looking at 550-560 on auto and 570-ish on manual per their previous posts at a maximum of 7psi.

Just clearing that up, since it's that way across the board for now.

We've also not yet seen the horizontal-mounting IC. It may well be similar to the others mounting-wise, which still has me interested (because as I've said, I really, really like their ICs).

 

Lets just all get along because all in all all these kits are awesome!
Choices for us in GREAT!
The C7 will pull a lot of cars including the z06 with these kits and be an amazing machines!

 

With a stick making 570 on a mustang dyno is close to 600 on a dyno jet! I don't worry about the Auto's!
The burn these will make on say a new GT500! OH MY!

Lead on the hole then start pulling away! This car will be awesome with even 570 rear wheel! Then I have one of the best tuners in my area close by! So 600/600 should happen with these kits!
the phatt kind clearly did but that one is not in the running for me!