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These GEN5 engines have an issue with what many of us believe is false knock. we did quite a bit of testing back in late 2013 and seemed like no matter what we did it still reported. You have to remember that knock sensors are microphones. Just be cause you show KR it doesn't always mean its detonation. Since the LS3 came out w have seen GM get very aggressive in the sensitivity of the knock controls. The E92 is still an interesting dissection.
FYI we have a thread going now on HPT site that you may be interested in following;
Thanks for the info. Do any of the handheld devices have wi-fi capability to log my runs, or do all of them still need cables everywhere while I'm trying to race my car? I had an SCT handheld in my supercharged 2011 Camaro and it was a little crazy to have all of the cables laying across my lap.
Going to aacorvette tomorrow morning , if the intake is gaining power on initial install and then losing power later on will find out. Intake has been on for 300+ miles already.
Going to aacorvette tomorrow morning , if the intake is gaining power on initial install and then losing power later on will find out. Intake has been on for 300+ miles already.
I don't think 300 miles is going to make any difference? I put up my best time of 10.77 at 130 mph after having the intake installed for around 500-600 miles. DA also seems to be a factor with mine? Last weekend DA was around zero (or ideal conditions) and she struggled to get any faster than 11.0 at 123-124. Once the DA rose to around 1700-1800, I ripped off a 10.78 at 127! 60' times were identical and coolant temps were within a few degrees. The cool, dense air is the only thing that changed.
To be fair, my 130 mph run did have a "little" tail wind. All of my other 10.77 and 10.78 runs were right around 127-128.
Thanks for the info. Do any of the handheld devices have wi-fi capability to log my runs, or do all of them still need cables everywhere while I'm trying to race my car? I had an SCT handheld in my supercharged 2011 Camaro and it was a little crazy to have all of the cables laying across my lap.
Any advice. There must be an easier way.
We don't deal much with the handhelds so not sure who has that capability. You can set the laptop up easy enough and still track the car.
I would really like to see some data logs from guys at the track, instead of the dyno. I do think that there is something to the fact that the engine is getting MUCH more air with this intake while actually driving it. Instead of the controlled environment of the dyno room. I could be wrong, but my cars numbers are telling the story....
Thanks for the info. Do any of the handheld devices have wi-fi capability to log my runs, or do all of them still need cables everywhere while I'm trying to race my car? I had an SCT handheld in my supercharged 2011 Camaro and it was a little crazy to have all of the cables laying across my lap.
Any advice. There must be an easier way.
Yes there is an easier way. I log about 17 channels of data when I do track days, using Torque APP on Android. Below is a screen shot from one of my videos. Possible you could use something like Harry's Lap Timer and only set the PIDs to Timing, KR, temps senors, and RPM, etc. I know with my Samsung S4, logging only 4-8 sensors gives me a better than 5Hz refresh rate, but I don't know if it would be same with an iPhone.
I log these parameters in Real-time @ 2.5Hz (1 refresh per 0.4 seconds)
Fuel Level (From Engine ECU)(%)
Intake Air Temperature(°F)
Ambient air temp(°F)
Transmission Fluid Temp (GM Method 1)(°F)
Engine Coolant Temperature(°F)
Oil Temperature (Engine)(°F)
Oil Pressure (Engine)(psi)
Accelerator PedalPosition D(%)
Throttle Position(Manifold)(%)
Engine RPM(rpm)
Speed (GPS)(mph)
Speed (OBD)(mph)
Air Fuel Ratio(Commanded)(:1)
Timing Advance(°)
Knock Retard(Deg.)
Volumetric Efficiency (Calculated)(%)
Run time since engine start(s)
I've been able to achieve 10Hz (1 refresh per 0.1 seconds) with these 4 parameters, I think my units max is 6 at that refresh rate.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
2019 C6 of Year Winner (track prepared)
Originally Posted by 1QUICK Z
I don't think 300 miles is going to make any difference? I put up my best time of 10.77 at 130 mph after having the intake installed for around 500-600 miles. DA also seems to be a factor with mine? Last weekend DA was around zero (or ideal conditions) and she struggled to get any faster than 11.0 at 123-124. Once the DA rose to around 1700-1800, I ripped off a 10.78 at 127! 60' times were identical and coolant temps were within a few degrees. The cool, dense air is the only thing that changed.
To be fair, my 130 mph run did have a "little" tail wind. All of my other 10.77 and 10.78 runs were right around 127-128.
Unfortunately the DA changes are the least contributing factor to how the car performs (or doesn't). As a general rule a fairly sizeable 1700 ft increase in the DA will have less of an effect on a supercharged car compared to one that was NA, and with the Z06 it seems that about the only consistent thing is it's inconsistency.
During my four trips to the track with the car I've had as much as a 4/10ths variance between my best and worst ET of the night and it hasn't been because of the DA or outside air temps like you would normally expect. There were two nights where the car had been running a reasonably consistent 11.2 during time trials only to surprise me by going 11.0xx, both of which would have been high 10 second passes had I not been on the brakes because I was ahead of the guy during eliminations.
The biggest single jump I saw was a 2.5MPH increase in my trap speed and .2 drop in my ET between two runs made 30 minutes apart in the same lane. The biggest decrease was last week where the car had run 11.19 and 11.17 consecutively so I dialed 11.15 for eliminations only to end up with an 11.42 ET.
Even though I was having IAT issues with the Halltech last week, the huge ET variations still happened while the car was still totally stock. Looking through my scans I've seen different amounts of WOT timing, differences in the time it takes for the car to actually go WOT from when you first punch it, differences in my shift point RPM, differences in how much timing it pulls between shifts (and how fast it ends up recovering) along with what gear I end up in going through the traps in.
While the car may be fun for saying "Hey I just made a 10 second pass in a stock car!" without tuning it to reduce or eliminate some of the factors causing the inconsistency, it pretty much sucks as a reliable bracket racer. While I know for a fact from my other car (LS7/A6 C6 running mid 10's like clockwork) that it can be done, I just don't feel like giving up my warranty on the Z06 to have it do the same.
In the past it was possible to get quite a few major components fixed under warranty even with a modified car but now if the engine, transmission or different blows up then GM will connect to the car in real time to check for the presence of a tune before deciding whether to warranty it or not.
I can definitely share your frustration as one of the primary reasons I bought the car in the first place was to bracket race with after my other race car got stolen. Since I've been able to cut pretty decent lights with it consistently, the best I can hope for is to use it as a backup for my other car and if I have to run it in an important race I'll just dial REALLY soft and prepare to do some heavy duty fender racing at the end.
Unfortunately the DA changes are the least contributing factor to how the car performs (or doesn't). As a general rule a fairly sizeable 1700 ft increase in the DA will have less of an effect on a supercharged car compared to one that was NA, and with the Z06 it seems that about the only consistent thing is it's inconsistency.
During my four trips to the track with the car I've had as much as a 4/10ths variance between my best and worst ET of the night and it hasn't been because of the DA or outside air temps like you would normally expect. There were two nights where the car had been running a reasonably consistent 11.2 during time trials only to surprise me by going 11.0xx, both of which would have been high 10 second passes had I not been on the brakes because I was ahead of the guy during eliminations.
The biggest single jump I saw was a 2.5MPH increase in my trap speed and .2 drop in my ET between two runs made 30 minutes apart in the same lane. The biggest decrease was last week where the car had run 11.19 and 11.17 consecutively so I dialed 11.15 for eliminations only to end up with an 11.42 ET.
Even though I was having IAT issues with the Halltech last week, the huge ET variations still happened while the car was still totally stock. Looking through my scans I've seen different amounts of WOT timing, differences in the time it takes for the car to actually go WOT from when you first punch it, differences in my shift point RPM, differences in how much timing it pulls between shifts (and how fast it ends up recovering) along with what gear I end up in going through the traps in.
While the car may be fun for saying "Hey I just made a 10 second pass in a stock car!" without tuning it to reduce or eliminate some of the factors causing the inconsistency, it pretty much sucks as a reliable bracket racer. While I know for a fact from my other car (LS7/A6 C6 running mid 10's like clockwork) that it can be done, I just don't feel like giving up my warranty on the Z06 to have it do the same.
In the past it was possible to get quite a few major components fixed under warranty even with a modified car but now if the engine, transmission or different blows up then GM will connect to the car in real time to check for the presence of a tune before deciding whether to warranty it or not.
I can definitely share your frustration as one of the primary reasons I bought the car in the first place was to bracket race with after my other race car got stolen. Since I've been able to cut pretty decent lights with it consistently, the best I can hope for is to use it as a backup for my other car and if I have to run it in an important race I'll just dial REALLY soft and prepare to do some heavy duty fender racing at the end.
The only thing you can do is clear the adaptive settings when you are at the track and test. This will be the best solution for the guys with a stock tune and aftermarket intake imo. If the HP tuner software can do that it will be a worthwhile investment.
Yes there is an easier way. I log about 17 channels of data when I do track days, using Torque APP on Android. Below is a screen shot from one of my videos. Possible you could use something like Harry's Lap Timer and only set the PIDs to Timing, KR, temps senors, and RPM, etc. I know with my Samsung S4, logging only 4-8 sensors gives me a better than 5Hz refresh rate, but I don't know if it would be same with an iPhone.
I log these parameters in Real-time @ 2.5Hz (1 refresh per 0.4 seconds)
Fuel Level (From Engine ECU)(%)
Intake Air Temperature(°F)
Ambient air temp(°F)
Transmission Fluid Temp (GM Method 1)(°F)
Engine Coolant Temperature(°F)
Oil Temperature (Engine)(°F)
Oil Pressure (Engine)(psi)
Accelerator PedalPosition D(%)
Throttle Position(Manifold)(%)
Engine RPM(rpm)
Speed (GPS)(mph)
Speed (OBD)(mph)
Air Fuel Ratio(Commanded)(:1)
Timing Advance(°)
Knock Retard(Deg.)
Volumetric Efficiency (Calculated)(%)
Run time since engine start(s)
I've been able to achieve 10Hz (1 refresh per 0.1 seconds) with these 4 parameters, I think my units max is 6 at that refresh rate.
Oil Pressure (Engine)(psi)
Engine RPM(rpm)
Speed (OBD)(mph)
Timing Advance(°)
Things I don't log, but have in the Past:
Fuel Trim Bank 1 Short Term(%)
Fuel Trim Bank 2 Short Term(%)
Fuel Trim Bank 1 Long Term(%)
Fuel Trim Bank 2 Long Term(%)
O2 Volts Bank 1 sensor 1(V)
O2 Volts Bank 1 sensor 2(V)
O2 Volts Bank 2 sensor 1(V)
O2 Volts Bank 2 sensor 2(V)
Catalyst Temperature (Bank 1 Sensor 1)(°F)
Catalyst Temperature (Bank 2 Sensor 1)(°F)
Thanks for the info. Can you get a spreadsheet of the stats as well? Watching it on a screen is nice, but I need to be able to sit down and analyze what is going on. The Dash Command app that I used last weekend technically had a spreadsheet, but it was almost useless.
Unfortunately the DA changes are the least contributing factor to how the car performs (or doesn't). As a general rule a fairly sizeable 1700 ft increase in the DA will have less of an effect on a supercharged car compared to one that was NA, and with the Z06 it seems that about the only consistent thing is it's inconsistency.
During my four trips to the track with the car I've had as much as a 4/10ths variance between my best and worst ET of the night and it hasn't been because of the DA or outside air temps like you would normally expect. There were two nights where the car had been running a reasonably consistent 11.2 during time trials only to surprise me by going 11.0xx, both of which would have been high 10 second passes had I not been on the brakes because I was ahead of the guy during eliminations.
The biggest single jump I saw was a 2.5MPH increase in my trap speed and .2 drop in my ET between two runs made 30 minutes apart in the same lane. The biggest decrease was last week where the car had run 11.19 and 11.17 consecutively so I dialed 11.15 for eliminations only to end up with an 11.42 ET.
Even though I was having IAT issues with the Halltech last week, the huge ET variations still happened while the car was still totally stock. Looking through my scans I've seen different amounts of WOT timing, differences in the time it takes for the car to actually go WOT from when you first punch it, differences in my shift point RPM, differences in how much timing it pulls between shifts (and how fast it ends up recovering) along with what gear I end up in going through the traps in.
While the car may be fun for saying "Hey I just made a 10 second pass in a stock car!" without tuning it to reduce or eliminate some of the factors causing the inconsistency, it pretty much sucks as a reliable bracket racer. While I know for a fact from my other car (LS7/A6 C6 running mid 10's like clockwork) that it can be done, I just don't feel like giving up my warranty on the Z06 to have it do the same.
In the past it was possible to get quite a few major components fixed under warranty even with a modified car but now if the engine, transmission or different blows up then GM will connect to the car in real time to check for the presence of a tune before deciding whether to warranty it or not.
I can definitely share your frustration as one of the primary reasons I bought the car in the first place was to bracket race with after my other race car got stolen. Since I've been able to cut pretty decent lights with it consistently, the best I can hope for is to use it as a backup for my other car and if I have to run it in an important race I'll just dial REALLY soft and prepare to do some heavy duty fender racing at the end.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I love this car and it can be really fast, but Lord knows when she wants to decide to do that? I am not willing to give up my warranty either. At least, not just yet. I'm hoping that there is a reasonable answer to those of us that would like to go fast (consistently) and NOT void their warranty. If not, I guess I will just ride it out for a while. Certainly not the end of the world. Just a little disappointing.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
2019 C6 of Year Winner (track prepared)
Originally Posted by rflow306
The only thing you can do is clear the adaptive settings when you are at the track and test. This will be the best solution for the guys with a stock tune and aftermarket intake imo. If the HP tuner software can do that it will be a worthwhile investment.
Clearing the stored knock retard and fuel trims. This typically works on other late model FI cars. I have not had a chance to test it on my Z yet but i plan to.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
2019 C6 of Year Winner (track prepared)
Originally Posted by rflow306
Clearing the stored knock retard and fuel trims. This typically works on other late model FI cars. I have not had a chance to test it on my Z yet but i plan to.
Unless it's a brand new feature in the 2.25 HPT beta, resetting the Knock Learn values can't be done.
Guys,
Thank you for this tread. It's well worth reading your dialog.
Many of us out here are seeing the inconsistencies but don't understand why.
I personally appreciate you guys sharing ����
Has anyone played around with what race fuel (extra octane) does to help with the reduced timing at the track? There has to be a reasonable way to race this car without all of the inconsistency.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
2019 C6 of Year Winner (track prepared)
Originally Posted by 1QUICK Z
Has anyone played around with what race fuel (extra octane) does to help with the reduced timing at the track? There has to be a reasonable way to race this car without all of the inconsistency.
I did, but it only eliminated the timing pull from not having seen any KR. As I mentioned earlier, that's only a small piece of the puzzle in terms of all the fun ways GM keeps the car from being consistent.
I did, but it only eliminated the timing pull from not having seen any KR. As I mentioned earlier, that's only a small piece of the puzzle in terms of all the fun ways GM keeps the car from being consistent.
Bummer. Ok, thanks. Sure sounds like a custom tuner is the only way around all of this? That's unfortunate.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
2019 C6 of Year Winner (track prepared)
Originally Posted by 1QUICK Z
Bummer. Ok, thanks. Sure sounds like a custom tuner is the only way around all of this? That's unfortunate.
I noticed that your local track is closed, but do you have another one that's within a reasonable driving distance? The reason I ask is because if you do, I have a spare HP Tuners interface that you could effectively rent from me (i.e. I'd take a deposit up front and then refund you the full amount once you sent it back) so you could get a better idea of what's going on with the car.
I noticed that your local track is closed, but do you have another one that's within a reasonable driving distance? The reason I ask is because if you do, I have a spare HP Tuners interface that you could effectively rent from me (i.e. I'd take a deposit up front and then refund you the full amount once you sent it back) so you could get a better idea of what's going on with the car.
I really appreciate that. I'll just mess with it next year. The closest track is over 3 hours away. I think I'm done for the year. Thanks though
