Finally...
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 2,784
Likes: 3,563
That's where I'm at. My 2LT Stingray was almost $89K. Built to my specs, a Z06 would be $125K. If I take the cost of my car plus the cost of going all in on supercharging (IF and I mean IF it were fully realized, which it isn't), I'd be at $119K and have abysmal resale value. The value proposition is just not there when looked at that way. The World don't owe me a living, but I don't think it was out of the realm to have expected to have had the option of putting a blower on a C8 for less than $20K a couple of years ago. I'll continue to enjoy the car, but modifying this thing is pointless.
Old adage I picked up many, many moons ago: if you want a fast car, buy one.
Old adage I picked up many, many moons ago: if you want a fast car, buy one.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 406
Likes: 300
From: Oklahoma
That's where I'm at. My 2LT Stingray was almost $89K. Built to my specs, a Z06 would be $125K. If I take the cost of my car plus the cost of going all in on supercharging (IF and I mean IF it were fully realized, which it isn't), I'd be at $119K and have abysmal resale value. The value proposition is just not there when looked at that way. The World don't owe me a living, but I don't think it was out of the realm to have expected to have had the option of putting a blower on a C8 for less than $20K a couple of years ago. I'll continue to enjoy the car, but modifying this thing is pointless.
Old adage I picked up many, many moons ago: if you want a fast car, buy one.
Old adage I picked up many, many moons ago: if you want a fast car, buy one.
For me a spec'd out Z was around $156k give or take. So I'm still in the black as far as comps go... until the wheels are factored in (but I bought those b/c I liked the look, not for speed...)
Resale is definitely gonna be crap if i do resell it. Probably will just keep it virtually forever for that reason too. But the resale on all of these cars outside of weird CarMaggeddon over the last 2 years, will be bad. Just worse for a supercharged one.
Once I do stage 2, I'll definitely be past stock Z06 spend but the performance will at least be past actual stock Z06 peformance (i don't count Will Farmer running a no seat, drag slick, full track prep run as stock on a 40 degree day lol)... in for a penny, in for a pound.
at this rate I'll be taking bids on my duplicate organs for stage 3.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,015
Likes: 852
From: Tampa Florida
Most of the cars at those northeast tracks are running drag radials or drag packs. Good luck with stock tires trying to compete. That's just the way it is with those guys. Will Farmer ran 10.40s bone stock which was a starting point. Brooks ran 10.40s bone stock down here in hot weather south Florida. But his trap speed was only 128.
Note: I haven't seen one supercharger or turbocharger running stock tires on their C8s at the drag strip as of yet.
Note: I haven't seen one supercharger or turbocharger running stock tires on their C8s at the drag strip as of yet.
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 4,079
Likes: 2,411
From: Florida
Good luck getting a Z06 @ MSRP... that's kind of the issue.
I suppose in a year or two, especially once ZR1s come out... we will see more Z06s hit the market @ retail. Right now they are unicorns. When i bought my z51 the forums were chocked full of guys claiming they can find MSRP left and right, I called something like 50 or 60 dealerships (steal-erships) at the time I was hunting. I wound up paying a $10k premium for my car which at the time was about $15k less than what virtually all of the dealerships were doing.
I could have waited, sure. same deal with your ZO6 example. If I wanted to wait a year or more... maybe snag one at MSRP.
If I could have bought a Z06 @ MSRP, yes, I'd have gone that route all day long. Im glad i didnt wait, id still be waiting for a Z @ retail.
I suppose in a year or two, especially once ZR1s come out... we will see more Z06s hit the market @ retail. Right now they are unicorns. When i bought my z51 the forums were chocked full of guys claiming they can find MSRP left and right, I called something like 50 or 60 dealerships (steal-erships) at the time I was hunting. I wound up paying a $10k premium for my car which at the time was about $15k less than what virtually all of the dealerships were doing.
I could have waited, sure. same deal with your ZO6 example. If I wanted to wait a year or more... maybe snag one at MSRP.
If I could have bought a Z06 @ MSRP, yes, I'd have gone that route all day long. Im glad i didnt wait, id still be waiting for a Z @ retail.
I'm not certain what I want to do in the meantime.
I'm concerned no supercharged option seems to make it more than 2 laps without safety kicking it back to stock power.
Turbo options are generally much much more condusive to tracking and heat mitigation but with no open source tuning I can see dealing with all kinds of tuning issues on a turbo setup.
Perhaps heads, headers, and e30 is as far as I can go for awhile.
I appreciate your trailblazing and will continue to follow you and people like @J5isalive who are trying to get them right
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 205
Likes: 102
It's been noted in another thread, but i find it extremely irritating that it takes 800+whp to get solid 60-130 times out of these cars... to me it's 1,000% AWFUL, AWFUL... gearing.
Let's say the 10.1PC car is doing 2.5 0-60... he's hitting 140mph at 1/4mi.... back of the napkin... I bet it's a 6.6-6.8sec 60-130. Assuming 1.1sec 130-140, that's 9.1-2.5 = 6.6 give or take
Just a guess...
Love to see some dragy data from whoever owns that car.
0-30 (street)
0-60 (street)
60-100 (street)
60-130 (street)
Let's say the 10.1PC car is doing 2.5 0-60... he's hitting 140mph at 1/4mi.... back of the napkin... I bet it's a 6.6-6.8sec 60-130. Assuming 1.1sec 130-140, that's 9.1-2.5 = 6.6 give or take
Just a guess...
Love to see some dragy data from whoever owns that car.
0-30 (street)
0-60 (street)
60-100 (street)
60-130 (street)
Are you planning to unlock your ECM and add 1 or 2lbs of boost? Or are you going to wait for Lingenfelter?
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 406
Likes: 300
From: Oklahoma
Haven't decided on firm next steps. Leaning towards LPE stage 2, i need to see definitive parts list for stage 2 with details. Im find going overkill on forged internals or whatever else the find necessary for longevity and warranty purposes. LPE will want to over engineer it so it's extremely hardy... that's fine to me.
But... I want to see real street #s from their tests, not just drag strip runs on full prep with drag packs and -3000DA sort of hero runs. I hope the stage 2 makes closer to the 14lbs of boost like that PC... not just a baby step up from stage 1.
It needs to be a BIG bite. 150+ wheel horse improvement over stage 1 is kind of a minimum for me based on what id guess the cost will be. I'd prefer it to be 200whp jump.
If they fixed the fueling issue the sky kind of becomes the limit. (Besides the limits placed by the worlds tallest gears built for setting land speed records in a 3000hp car or something... or satisfying the EPA)
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 205
Likes: 102
My ECM is unlocked already... (waiting and wishing for TCM unlock)
Haven't decided on firm next steps. Leaning towards LPE stage 2, i need to see definitive parts list for stage 2 with details. Im find going overkill on forged internals or whatever else the find necessary for longevity and warranty purposes. LPE will want to over engineer it so it's extremely hardy... that's fine to me.
But... I want to see real street #s from their tests, not just drag strip runs on full prep with drag packs and -3000DA sort of hero runs. I hope the stage 2 makes closer to the 14lbs of boost like that PC... not just a baby step up from stage 1.
It needs to be a BIG bite. 150+ wheel horse improvement over stage 1 is kind of a minimum for me based on what id guess the cost will be. I'd prefer it to be 200whp jump.
If they fixed the fueling issue the sky kind of becomes the limit. (Besides the limits placed by the worlds tallest gears built for setting land speed records in a 3000hp car or something... or satisfying the EPA)
Haven't decided on firm next steps. Leaning towards LPE stage 2, i need to see definitive parts list for stage 2 with details. Im find going overkill on forged internals or whatever else the find necessary for longevity and warranty purposes. LPE will want to over engineer it so it's extremely hardy... that's fine to me.
But... I want to see real street #s from their tests, not just drag strip runs on full prep with drag packs and -3000DA sort of hero runs. I hope the stage 2 makes closer to the 14lbs of boost like that PC... not just a baby step up from stage 1.
It needs to be a BIG bite. 150+ wheel horse improvement over stage 1 is kind of a minimum for me based on what id guess the cost will be. I'd prefer it to be 200whp jump.
If they fixed the fueling issue the sky kind of becomes the limit. (Besides the limits placed by the worlds tallest gears built for setting land speed records in a 3000hp car or something... or satisfying the EPA)
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 229
Likes: 84
From: FL
Ha! Alot of truth to that old adage.
For me a spec'd out Z was around $156k give or take. So I'm still in the black as far as comps go... until the wheels are factored in (but I bought those b/c I liked the look, not for speed...)
Resale is definitely gonna be crap if i do resell it. Probably will just keep it virtually forever for that reason too. But the resale on all of these cars outside of weird CarMaggeddon over the last 2 years, will be bad. Just worse for a supercharged one.
Once I do stage 2, I'll definitely be past stock Z06 spend but the performance will at least be past actual stock Z06 peformance (i don't count Will Farmer running a no seat, drag slick, full track prep run as stock on a 40 degree day lol)... in for a penny, in for a pound.
at this rate I'll be taking bids on my duplicate organs for stage 3.
For me a spec'd out Z was around $156k give or take. So I'm still in the black as far as comps go... until the wheels are factored in (but I bought those b/c I liked the look, not for speed...)
Resale is definitely gonna be crap if i do resell it. Probably will just keep it virtually forever for that reason too. But the resale on all of these cars outside of weird CarMaggeddon over the last 2 years, will be bad. Just worse for a supercharged one.
Once I do stage 2, I'll definitely be past stock Z06 spend but the performance will at least be past actual stock Z06 peformance (i don't count Will Farmer running a no seat, drag slick, full track prep run as stock on a 40 degree day lol)... in for a penny, in for a pound.
at this rate I'll be taking bids on my duplicate organs for stage 3.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 2,784
Likes: 3,563
As a data point, Peitz Performance has released pricing structure for their naturally aspirated packages that incorporate the HP Tuners capability now. "Charlie Plus" pack installed and ready to go is over $20,000 and they claim a very vague +80hp with optional higher compression and E85. So what would that return on regular pump gas? Maybe 40-45hp. For $20,0000! Yikes. I think you can DIY the install for $12,000 but not many guys are going to be comfortable doing that. Kind of makes these $30,000 turn key blowers look pretty good in comparison.
Like I said, if you want a fast car, buy one.
Like I said, if you want a fast car, buy one.
Last edited by combatninja; Jun 23, 2023 at 04:27 PM.
Dig
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,429
Likes: 1,104
From: Port Saint Lucie FLORIDA & HONDURAS
As a data point, Peitz Performance has released pricing structure for their naturally aspirated packages that incorporate the HP Tuners capability now. "Charlie Plus" pack installed and ready to go is over $20,000 and they claim a very vague +80hp with optional higher compression and E85. So what would that return on regular pump gas? Maybe 40-45hp. For $20,0000! Yikes. I think you can DIY the install for $12,000 but not many guys are going to be comfortable doing that. Kind of makes these $30,000 turn key blowers look pretty good in comparison.
Like I said, if you want a fast car, buy one.
Like I said, if you want a fast car, buy one.
With headers, cat delete, intake, shaved heads … it should be around that with E
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 2,784
Likes: 3,563
I think what changed was the HP Tuners announcement. You're going to see a whole new wave of naturally aspirated tuning with the C8 now but it will fizzle because the cars are going to cap out on stock bottom ends well short of what people are 'wanting'. As to your 590whp goal, they are not even claiming that for their Charlie Plus. The graph on their page looks like just short of 470whp on a Mustang Dyno so figure higher for a Dynojet of course. Regardless of what kind of dyno it is, I think we can all agree that this $20,000 package is going to be somewhere south of 500whp when all is said and done. To be honest, that isn't even enough power to begin to solve the 'issues' for a street-driven C8, which is the ridiculous gearing. You need +150hp or more to power through that gearing in 4th. The NA 1/4 mile guys might get excited as it will drop a couple of tenths maybe but it will do F-all for a street-driven car.
I'm not hating on Peitz and I'm all about seeing options for different build paths for this platform but that pricing is a little out there. For the record, here is what Charlie Plus includes so everyone can make their own value judgment:
I'm not hating on Peitz and I'm all about seeing options for different build paths for this platform but that pricing is a little out there. For the record, here is what Charlie Plus includes so everyone can make their own value judgment:
- In-house fabricated Cat-back T-304 stainless exhaust system
- Modular exhaust designed to be able to be used with turbos
- Kooks long tube headers with stock cats
- Halltech Hornet intake
- Mighty Mouse catch can (Wild) w 10 AN lines
- HP Tuners E99 ECM Upgrade
- Dyno-proven calibration with tuning support
- Options for professional installation, mail-out, and E85 tunes
- CNC ported heads optimizing flow and efficiency
- Camshaft optimized for performance and drivability
- Hardened pushrods
- Trunion rocker upgrade
- .660” lift valve springs
- 160 degree thermostat
- Options for milling heads for higher compression w/E85
- 80+ HP gains with E85 and higher compression
Last edited by combatninja; Jun 23, 2023 at 05:54 PM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 406
Likes: 300
From: Oklahoma
I believe the TCM would need to be cracked as well, but yeah it is possible but no one has done it (yet). Hoping it happens because I'd be 1st in line to buy them.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 2,784
Likes: 3,563
Cracking the TCM will be the first step. Someone is going to have to physically crack open one of these Tremec DCTs and make physical changes to several of the gears. Not sure what the market would be as these gearboxes are already problematic and it would be instant 'bye-bye warranty' once done. Just not sure of the market demand while these cars are so new. I can see this coming in a few years once there are thousands and thousands out of warranty coverage. Heck, even dealerships are not authorized by GM to open the transmission cases. If there is an issue found, the fix is removal and replacement.
Maybe a baby step that I've not seen anyone do yet would be the Z06 final drive at 5.56 vs 5.17 for a Z51 Stingray. FWIW, base C8s get 4.89. So maybe crack the TCU and fit a Z06 ring and pinion? Just thinking out loud here.
Maybe a baby step that I've not seen anyone do yet would be the Z06 final drive at 5.56 vs 5.17 for a Z51 Stingray. FWIW, base C8s get 4.89. So maybe crack the TCU and fit a Z06 ring and pinion? Just thinking out loud here.
Last edited by combatninja; Jun 25, 2023 at 08:37 AM.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jun 2023
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Just had the Procharger stage 2 installed and tune flashed from Procharger. Added new cat back exhaust. Honestly disappointed in performance feel for what I paid. And if I am not careful hard downshift throws into Limp Mode. Tuning shop not comfortable with HP tunes so he is at a loss at what to do. Looking for local tuner with experience with HP tuner as I can't dive two hours back and forth to previous shop.
Def faster in gears 4 and above but no real difference in gears 1-3.
Def faster in gears 4 and above but no real difference in gears 1-3.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,121
Likes: 970
From: Think BEFORE hitting "Submit Reply"
Considering the Dodson Sportsman clutch upgrade for the C8 is ~$7K, just for the clutch, no install, IMO a bespoke gearset would be much, much pricier than that.
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 205
Likes: 102
Just had the Procharger stage 2 installed and tune flashed from Procharger. Added new cat back exhaust. Honestly disappointed in performance feel for what I paid. And if I am not careful hard downshift throws into Limp Mode. Tuning shop not comfortable with HP tunes so he is at a loss at what to do. Looking for local tuner with experience with HP tuner as I can't dive two hours back and forth to previous shop.
Def faster in gears 4 and above but no real difference in gears 1-3.
Def faster in gears 4 and above but no real difference in gears 1-3.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 406
Likes: 300
From: Oklahoma
Just had the Procharger stage 2 installed and tune flashed from Procharger. Added new cat back exhaust. Honestly disappointed in performance feel for what I paid. And if I am not careful hard downshift throws into Limp Mode. Tuning shop not comfortable with HP tunes so he is at a loss at what to do. Looking for local tuner with experience with HP tuner as I can't dive two hours back and forth to previous shop.
Def faster in gears 4 and above but no real difference in gears 1-3.
Def faster in gears 4 and above but no real difference in gears 1-3.
