JerryU

^^^
I can imagine! Just hard to see an Italian sedan use a Hi-Tech engine and we have so many folks worrying about the risks of using the Blackwing! Not that the risks aren’t valid but a pushrod V8 in our halo car??

Granted Ferrari is a bit ahead of GM with engine design and manufacture. The hour TV program on building one of the Ferrari models shows pouring liquid aluminum to machining a 4 valve head in the factory! There was a lot of QA with people as well as computer input.

Foosh

Yep this local one keeps beckoning, and my resolve is weakening.

Dominic Sorresso

Jerry,

“Hope we get better before Mary Barra and AOC has only EV's for sale!”

i think Elon has already beat everyone to that.

Stylistically, at the very least, Giulia blows BMW out of the water.

Foosh

It is a gorgeous car, even more so in person. That Rosso Competizione tint coat is miles deep.

JerryU

Yep the pics sure look great. Looks like that color is a $2200 option not available $38,500 model. Good marketing.

However the $38,500 model 280 hp from a 2 Liter turbo is not bad and it's supposed to get KERS as well! But a smaller KERS with 65 hp for a total of 345 hp. May be what the drive train and tires can handle. Be interesting to see how much that adds to the price.

The Quadrifoglio gets the same width tires as the C7, 245 front/285 rear. Nice wheels

Now if a 2 seater with "advanced styling like a 1960 Giulietta Spider had!!

C7pimp

On the interior, for sure. On the exterior I think the Giulia and 3-Series are comparably attractive cars. Except, they went too big on the exterior dimensions of the 7th gen 3-series. Looks like a 5-series.

vuuduu21

I'm surprised no one mentioned the new 6.6l truck engine GM just announced as a possible candidate. Same overall dim's as the LT1, but tuned for truck duty makes 401 HP and like 495 ft-lbs. already has a forged crank.

I would think re-tuning it for the C8 it would easily make 500 HP just based on the 6.2l vs 6.6l comparison, plus less restrictive / shorter exhaust etc.

vndkshn

Cast iron block? No thanks.

JerryU

I'm reminded when on business in Italy a fellow drove me an hour to an airport. He was into cars so I told him I just finished building my Street Rod with an 8.2 Liter engine! He asked quickly- is that a Truck Engine? At the time Italy was charging an annual car fee based on engine cid and he could not imagine what my 8.2 Liter would cost!

No thanks, the 502 cid engine is fine for my street rod and a "stump puller" 572 cid (that's 9.2 Liters) crate motor you can buy from GM with 621 streetable hp power (727 hp with higher compression for racing) would also be OK. BUT not in an ME sports car!

PS: You can also buy a 6.2 Liter LT1 Crate motor from GM with 535 hp. I recall when it came out ~2 year ago many C7 folks were excited. However when you looked at the torque spec it was not much more than the standard LT1! To use a "hotter cam" they also had to eliminate the variable cam timing (or valves would hit pistons.) That is what gives the LT1 more low end torque than the LS3 in my C6. Yep sounds good to have 75 more hp, but if it's all at the top end not very good for street driving! Need to drive a car "camed" for high rpm to understand the issue! BTW, that is a reason for double overhead cams, valve timing can be varied independently. The LT1 must compromise as it's all one cam. DOHC folks vary intake and exhaust independently to maximize low end torque and high rpm power. They can do that without having valves hit pistons!

dcbingaman

They'll get about 650 HP from 5.4 liters NA and 750 - 800 HP with a couple small turbos- easy - peasy !

BEAR-AvHistory

Don't believe that a bigger Blackwing would be that much of a cost hit over the LT1 on the build & materials side. If you can buy crate V8 DOHC engines for under $7,000 retail its could be under $5000 to produce. The advantage in cost for the LT1 is the development costs should have been covered long ago while the Blackwing or whatever they will call the Chevy have not. The other new cost would be the Tremec 7DCT but they many be splitting that with FORD like the 10 speed

So say they take the base price up to $62,000 - $65,000 will it sell at current or better volume? Think it would be a good deal at that price with BMW Z4 at $65,000 or FORD GT 350R at $67,000 base

C7pimp

Don't ever expect 650hp from a factory NA V8 sitting in a production street car. Way too many other deliverables to be met that restrict this from happening. Ferrari managed 600hp out of a 4.5L in the Speciale, but it also screamed at 9000 RPM yet had only 400lb/ft of torque.

Turbos are another story. You can easily crank a 4 cylinder to 1200 horsepower with forced induction. Power isn't hard to come by these days.

An 800hp V8 engine with forced induction is already "been there, done that". There are other aspects that affect overall performance that are much harder to come by (weight reduction, aerodynamics, putting that monstrous power to the ground, etc).

Our local tuner just put down 835rwhp with a pulley swap and tune on the Hellcat Redeye on pump gas. Power is easy.

Zaro Tundov

That's still a 5th gen LS, they just used a cast iron block with the same bore as the LT1 but a lengthened stroke.

My guess is the C8 will introduce a sixth generation LS architecture for the base model. Since the LTA (Blackwing) is hand built at the PBC I doubt the base engine will be based on the architecture, but damn would it be sweet if it is. I'm thinking a NA 5.5L DOHC V8 with a 48V BorgWarner P2 module to augment low end torque and deliver class-leading fuel economy.

Whatever the base engine is, it will leapfrong Ford's Coyote V8 and GM's LT1. That means well over 500 hp and at least 500 lb-ft torque.

Tom73

Not really ahead, just different manufacturering styles. GM is mass production, Ferrari is hand built. Would cost GM way too much to even think about hand building several hundred thousand cars and there is no way Ferrari could increase their production numbers and continue to hand building the cars.

JD_AMG

Go back and reread what you wrote, you specifically said "V8T DOHC", not me. And if they are using the 4.2L Blackwing engine they most certainly do need turbos to make over 500hp, and if you are going to say "just bump it up to 5.5L [we don't know how much displacement the blackwing can hold yet] then you are talking about an engine that will be under much more strain and have to rev higher than the current LT1 while still being bigger/heavier. However we are NOT talking about what engine's can and can't make, the FACT of the matter is the base Corvette will have a set power goal, and that goal ISNT "how much power can I get from this engine" - so that argument is totally pointless. What DOES matter is how light/physically small of an engine can make the 500-550hp base power goal. Again read carefully - Doesn't matter how much an engine can make, there is a preset goal.

Quote:

Westech had both the Chevy & Ford on a block & tackle with a scale in the engine test. Engines were ready to run on a dyno by Steve Brulé of Westech Performance & the Chevy was 12 lbs lighter.

Thank you for AGAIN pointing out the smaller displacement DOHC V8 is HEAVIER than the larger displacement pushrod engine. So Ill ask again, why do you think a different DOHC V8 is not going to be heavier? Why can't you answer a simple question and back up your claim that Ive asked you over and over?

Quote:

Move to Turbo Charging for a street legal engine you need a turbo & Intercooler or for a Supercharged Chevy requires the supercharger & an intercooler. Its still a wash weight wise in real life as delivered on the street factory certified EPA/CAFE & CARB approved. My twin turbo weighs about 30lbs. Singles are lighter so give it 50lbs for a pair.

Swapped out FMIC was very light but I never weighed it but it was a very easy for me to install by myself. The Edlebrock Roots supercharger like we installed on a BRZ weighs 53lbs don't know what the intercooler weighs.

Thank you for more useless information.

Quote:

Apples to apples N/A to N/A & boosted to boosted the DOHC does very well & its 100% legal which they need to be if they want to sell cars in the US.

Once again you don't see the big picture: POWER GOAL, NOT HOW MUCH POWER CAN BE MADE.

LOL bullshit, Ive seen a ton of mod motors in Cobra kit cars well before the Coyote existed, and the only time Cobro's get angry is when you put a non Ford engine in one, most couldn't care less if it was DOHC as long as its "muh Furd".

JD_AMG

Do you work for Alfa or something? I don't know why you keep bring this thing up or why you bother mentioning the base price considering the base car would struggle against a C4 Corvette, and thats if it doesn't break down first. Also there are plenty of quick sedans out there, this is really nothing that special...

I don't see whats wrong with the halo car using the pushrod V8 when its been doing so for decades now and KILLING(see road course times) just about everything out there for a fraction of the price. You're way too stuck with bench racing 0-60 times and hp/l. This is a sports car, lap times are what you should be concerned with if you want to compare performance. Only highschoolers care about stop light racing.

BEAR-AvHistory

JD_AMG. What are you going to do when the ME C8 is DOHC V8 Turbo? You go on & on but nothing will stop the decline of the cam in block. Once dominated the car industry now its new products are cast iron low RPM lugging truck engines. Time to start thinking about what is, DOHC not what was, Cam in Block.

If cam in block is so great for performance cars why is it getting dumped by the major & minor manufactures? How are you going to stop what is happening by complaining on an internet board? Same nonsense came out of the FORD guys when the flat head died. Flat Heads Forever, Save the manuals.

Power steering is dangerous, power brakes have no feel & the JD_AMG's of the world go on & on yada yada yada. Yada Yada preset goal. You have no idea what horsepower GM is going to select. Maybe they are tired of having $35,000 Mustangs having 460 HP while the $57,000 Corvette has 455HP or an equally priced GT350R having 526HP to a base 3LT's 455HP.

Same old, same old people railing against the future, if man was meant to fly god would have given him wings, get a horse. Every advance in automotive history has its JD-AMG's complaining while History passed them by, but Good Luck on your quest. LT1 forever!!!

dcbingaman

600 HP out of 4.5L is exceptional - 133 HP / liter. The Lambo / Audi V-10 makes 640 HP out of 5.2L, or 123 HP / liter, and it is an older engine. It is not unreasonable to expect GM to get the same out of the 5.4L DOHC engine they developing, especially if they continue to use 4.0" pistons and shorten the stroke to make it more over-square than the SBC current LT1. 650 HP out of 5.4L is only 120 HP / liter - they should conservatively get that much or I'll be disappointed.

WRT forced induction - the sky is the limit, especially with displacements as high as 5.4L. Volvo, Porsche, Audi and others are routinely making 300 HP out of 2.0L I-4's Scale that up to 5.4L and you are talking, conservatively, over 800 HP.

dcbingaman

Sorry but you just made JD_AMG's point. The reason that "old-fashioned" cam-in-block V-8's are still being manufactured is pickup trucks. Between Ford and GM, over 2 MILLION F-150's, Silverados and GMC Sierras were sold last year, not to mention another 600,000 Dodge Rams. Most of these had cam-in-block, OHV V-8's in them. In fact, overall V-8 production worldwide, is PREDOMINANTLY cam-in-block engines. GM is introducing a BRAND NEW 6.6L cam-in-block engine this year for its bigger trucks.

Why - because cam-in-block engines, especially big ones, produce more torque and more power than DOHC V-8's for nearly every application for lower weight, cost and installation volume. Same goes for big boat IO engines, which are, predominantly, GM and Chrysler-based big block cam-in-block engines. In order to keep the Corvette reasonable in price, it makes prefect sense for GM to leverage truck engine production to make their sports car engine. The LT1 is a great engine and fully competitive with anything else out there for HP and torque / weight ratio. The innovation GM has used is to reduce the engine weight further by making the block out of aluminum.

Now, does that mean that GM can't produce a world-class DOHC engine ? The answer is no, but the 4.2L Blackwing may not be the best example, given the issues the Cadillac twin-turbo V-6's have had. I think that where GM is going with the Corvette engine is to use the 6.2L LT1 as a starting point by using the same block, but shortening the stroke, just like they have in the C7.R engine. By using the same pistons, bearings, etc. as their truck engines, they can maintain commonality with the huge market they already own, but reduce piston speed, and introduce a new DOHC head with a huge area for 4 valves for higher revs (7500 rpm ?), so the engine won't even have to breath very hard to make 650 HP normally aspirated, and well over 800 HP with forced induction. I suspect that is where they are going, and they won't even have to charge much for it, because of commonality.

We'll see, but my guess is that the Corvette powertrains will always have a lot of commonality with the Silverado powertrains, but with unique materials and induction systems.

BEAR-AvHistory

Not making his case at all. FORD has a new cam in block cast iron truck engine but their car line is 100% DOHC. Heavy trucks are heavy trucks & the new FORD & Chevy truck engines are cheap diesels alternative with low RPM grunt. GM says it will fit in the Camaro but is not suitable for a car engine because of its designed power band.

You take one & convert it to alloy & DOHC you have a new engine with a short block designed for a cam in block application. Thing is you have still gone to a DOHC head for the car engine which is the key to the power.

Mercury Marine has already done it with a SBC 7.0L N/A DOHC V8 with 750HP.
ZR1 6.2L Supercharged OHV 755HP




I think for the Corvette you would want a ground up design keyed to the DOHC cylinder heads not the other way around. You want to stick a big powerful lump N/A into the ME just use a 572 crate engine @ 727HP out of the box with about a 6800 rpm power limit.

The Blackwing is an example with 550HO out of 4.2 liters at only 5,700rpm. Scale it up to 5.5 liters raise the power to 6800 rpm. GM claims is smaller & lighter then its current engines. You can be looking at 690HP with 783ft LBS staring around 2,500 rpm. Should not be hard BMW make 600HP+ out of 4.4 Liters. Not happy with that make it 6.0 liters.

Does it have to be BlackWing, no. Make it from a clean sheet of Chevy paper & call it a Bowtie. Call it anything you want but I think its should have DOHC. Low power model N/A 550hp the Mustang gets 526N/A out of 5.2 liters. Z06 650BHP ZR2 750HP