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C8 the last Corvette with and ICE drivetrain?

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C8 the last Corvette with and ICE drivetrain?

 
Old 02-07-2019, 06:37 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
GM sold ~18,000 Bolts in 2018 and lost ~$8,000 on each one of them. Who do you believe made up for that $144,000,000 loss?

What percentage of the US's electricity is supplied by nuclear, solar, wind and hydro? Do you believe that that percentage will be at 100% in the next 10 years to fuel all those wonderful EV's.

Point is that changing form gasoline to coal and natural gas to fuel our cars isn't really going to solve any problems, just waste a lot of money duplicating what we already have.

Want cleaner air this year, then take the wasted 255 billion+++++ dollars and make current cars cheaper, so more people will buy them to replace their older cars that are not as efficient.
what I was describing really has nothing to do with cleaner air. It is the fact that oil reserves will run low and the run out sometime around 50 or so years from now at current consumption levels. No oil means no gas. If we donít get ahead of the problem now then we will be in trouble. Any change of this magnitude will take decades to accomplish. To me electric isnít the way to go because of the long charge times and inconvenience. You are also not going to be able to sustain charging based on our antiquated electric grid. That is why I thought that hydrogen fuel cell cars would be the next big thing given the abundance of hydrogen. The key would be if it can be made efficiently enough to make it a better alternative to other fuel types out there
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:48 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Michael A View Post
Since EVs are only about 1% of total car sales worldwide, I find it hard to believe that the resultant small change in demand would cause much of a drop in oil prices. The price elasticity curve would have to go to the moon.
I suspect low oil/gas prices may also have to do with the large oil producing nations wanting to discourage the adoption of EVs. Of course with many companies stating that they are heading toward electric it could also be a cash grab. Oil nations see the writing on the wall so to speak so they want to sell as much as they can while they can. Decades can fly by before you realize they are gone
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Old 02-07-2019, 07:52 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Demnos View Post


To me electric isnít the way to go because of the long charge times and inconvenience. You are also not going to be able to sustain charging based on our antiquated electric grid. That is why I thought that hydrogen fuel cell cars would be the next big thing given the abundance of hydrogen. The key would be if it can be made efficiently enough to make it a better alternative to other fuel types out there
Hydrogen can also be used to fuel internal combustion engines.

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Old 02-07-2019, 08:00 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
Hydrogen can also be used to fuel internal combustion engines.
So can natural gas. Bypass the crap of converting natural gas into electricity and then putting that electricity into a vehicle to power the vehicle.

Just put the natural gas directly into an ICE vehicle and power it down the road.

The process has been around for decades.

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Old 02-07-2019, 08:11 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
So can natural gas. Bypass the crap of converting natural gas into electricity and then putting that electricity into a vehicle to power the vehicle.
Just put the natural gas directly into an ICE vehicle and power it down the road.
The process has been around for decades.
I'm pretty sure that an ICE engine produces power from natural gas more efficiently too, than the turbines which are typically used to generate electricity.
Hydrogen would probably be more attractive to the green freaks, since it produces nearly zero emissions when burned, including no carbon.

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Old 02-07-2019, 10:30 AM
  #26  
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Yes, the C9 will be electric and it is under development already. However, the C8 will be a long-lived generation since battery technology must be track ready for the C9.

GM plans, or at least planned as of last year, a new sporty RWD EV model in the early 20s, but it won't be track ready like the Corvette and Camaro (RIP).
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:52 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
I'm pretty sure that an ICE engine produces power from natural gas more efficiently too, than the turbines which are typically used to generate electricity.
Hydrogen would probably be more attractive to the green freaks, since it produces nearly zero emissions when burned, including no carbon.
Using hydrogen is more about abundance than anything. It behaves similarly to gas today in that it can be pumped from filling stations and takes very little time to fill up and be on your way. As I said the key is whether you can manufacture it efficiently enough. Cleaner byproducts are just a side benefit. Natural gas is similar to oil in that it is a limited resource. Funny that they used to just burn it off when drilling for oil...
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:01 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Demnos View Post


what I was describing really has nothing to do with cleaner air. It is the fact that oil reserves will run low and the run out sometime around 50 or so years from now at current consumption levels. No oil means no gas. If we donít get ahead of the problem now then we will be in trouble. Any change of this magnitude will take decades to accomplish. To me electric isnít the way to go because of the long charge times and inconvenience. You are also not going to be able to sustain charging based on our antiquated electric grid. That is why I thought that hydrogen fuel cell cars would be the next big thing given the abundance of hydrogen. The key would be if it can be made efficiently enough to make it a better alternative to other fuel types out there
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:19 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
So can natural gas. Bypass the crap of converting natural gas into electricity and then putting that electricity into a vehicle to power the vehicle.

Just put the natural gas directly into an ICE vehicle and power it down the road.

The process has been around for decades.
Worked for a medium/large oil/gas that pushed that. Our company vehicles were natural gas and worked great. Some fuel stations picked up natural gas, but sadly that company is no longer in the business of pushing natural gas and the stations have fallen off dramatically.


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Old 02-07-2019, 11:25 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Demnos View Post

I suspect low oil/gas prices may also have to do with the large oil producing nations wanting to discourage the adoption of EVs. Of course with many companies stating that they are heading toward electric it could also be a cash grab. Oil nations see the writing on the wall so to speak so they want to sell as much as they can while they can. Decades can fly by before you realize they are gone
It also has to do with new laws. Countries around the world are pushing for electric vehicles through the adoption of laws to limit the sell of fossil fuel burning vehicles.

I find it kind of funny there is such a disdain for EV here. You would think I was talking about how the new ME Corvette was only going to have a DCT with no manual option. I feel like I am back in grad school trying to explain to someone 10-15 years my senior that Netflix is going to be a hit and streaming video is the future while they are telling me BluRay is the best and the internet isn't fast enough.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:36 AM
  #31  
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As someone who works for a company which sold billions of gallons of gasoline last year, I can tell you EV's are barely on the radar. Any near term strategies involve adding a charging station to the side of existing fuel retailing sites in areas with a relatively dense population of EVs. This is barely in pilot phase. Natural gas has been an absolute failure because of transportation issues and number of vehicles which can utilize it. Almost all of the market is commercial (95%+).

It's the chicken vs. egg scenario. Retailers won't install chargers until there's a market. A mass market of EV's will need a grid.

PS- EV's have zero effect on crude pricing or street fuel prices.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:37 AM
  #32  
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I'm a lot more bullish than most on the EVs. I do think in my lifetime, there will be no more ICEs. That said, I very much doubt that the C9 will be electric only, definitely some sort of hybrid if the C8 doesn't. C10? Maybe. If the C8 has a C4-longevity run, remotely possible, and almost certain some sort of hybridization if it lasts more than a couple years.

Originally Posted by ChucksZ06 View Post
It's not gonna happen. As has already been said battery tech is maybe half as good as it needs to be.
Battery tech is already where it needs to be to suit the needs of the overwhelming majority of the population's needs.

Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
Hydrogen can also be used to fuel internal combustion engines.
I never understood why hydrogen didn't take off. I remember in Iceland in 2007 there were hydrogen stations quite a few places and much of the city vehicles ran off it, when I went back in 2017 they all seemingly died off.

Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
So can natural gas. Bypass the crap of converting natural gas into electricity and then putting that electricity into a vehicle to power the vehicle.
Eh, the problem with NG is the exact same as with gasoline: sooner or late you'll run out. Sure, the expected lifetime on it is much longer, but why popularize something that will have the same long term issues when there are alternatives?

Last edited by jefnvk; 02-07-2019 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:44 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Chrisrokc View Post
It also has to do with new laws. Countries around the world are pushing for electric vehicles through the adoption of laws to limit the sell of fossil fuel burning vehicles.

I find it kind of funny there is such a disdain for EV here. You would think I was talking about how the new ME Corvette was only going to have a DCT with no manual option. I feel like I am back in grad school trying to explain to someone 10-15 years my senior that Netflix is going to be a hit and streaming video is the future while they are telling me BluRay is the best and the internet isn't fast enough.
Take a look around you. Most of what you see is made from oil. Well to wheel costs of any so called 'renewable' energy can't match gasolene. Not even close. It can only exist with government subsidies. Not much reality at grad schools and that is why America is in such a mess. .
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Old 02-07-2019, 12:45 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
I'm pretty sure that an ICE engine produces power from natural gas more efficiently too, than the turbines which are typically used to generate electricity.
Hydrogen would probably be more attractive to the green freaks, since it produces nearly zero emissions when burned, including no carbon.
So much crap spoken on this forum. Hydrogen is not a fuel, it is a 'energy carrier'. Before it is converted to propulsion in your car to get to the results above, which is a whole other subject, about 95 percent of the hydrogen used today is produced by a process called steam reforming, which is produced by fossil fuels. Fossil fuels is a misnomer also. Yet another subject.
Producing one kilogram of hydrogen from water through electrolysis requires 45 or more kilowatt-hours of electricity, that’s enough electricity to run an Tesla for a couple hundred miles.
Some greenie pipe dreams propose that hydrogen can also be produced through electrolysis—the process of passing an electric current though water to separate water into oxygen and hydrogen gas . If the electric current comes from a renewable source, like solar energy, then you are essentially converting energy from sunlight into hydrogen energy. The Department of Energy’s National Renewable Energy Laboratory also lists these promising methods for deriving hydrogen from renewable sources: biological water splitting (using sunlight and microorganisms); pyrolysis or gasification of biomass resources; and solar thermal water splitting.
How do you package and distribute it? Do you like driving around with a bomb in your car?

Natural gas is not a good fuel. How do you get it? How do you store it? Do you like driving around with a bomb in your car? Fuel efficiency for compressed natural gas vehicles can be difficult for the consumer to calculate, as the metric for fuel efficiency in CNG and LNG vehicles isn’t actually miles per gallon (MPGs), but is MPGe equivalent. In other words, they con you into thinking it is more efficient than good 'ol gasolene.
When the commies finally destroy our way of life, oil will be king again. At current and projected usage, we have 300 years left, but, since human population will be halved soon, it will last even longer because it is being replenished naturally.

Again, well to wheel is the real cost. You can't carry so much energy in such a small package as gasolene. Also, your car gets lighter when it is consumed.
Aircraft and ships and plastics and medicine and food and ..........

C02 is not a pollutant in fact the planet has a deficit of it in the atmosphere. Carbon tax is simply a 'vehicle' for the commies to spread the wealth.

Last edited by Shaka; 02-07-2019 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 02-07-2019, 12:56 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Michael A View Post
Very poorly written article. Tesla is profitable, because they sell EV credits to other manufacturers.

EVs make for expensive commuter cars. Long charging times make them impractical for anything else. The laws of physics limit how fast EVs can charge. I don't see a future with the public horsing around with charging cables big enough to carry 1500 amps. I also don't see batteries lasting with that high of a charge rate, or even staying cool for that matter.

GM is working with Honda on making hydrogen fuel cells. With fill-up times and driving ranges already similar to gasoline cars, in my opinion, there is a lot more potential with fuel cell EVs taking the place of gasoline driven cars.
That's the exact reason there is not a EV at my house. My wife sometimes has to go into the office downtown and if she had a EV AND there was an available charging station it might be a no-brainer. But she's monitored it and it is very hit or miss on if there is one available and she goes in crazy early. Could she make it round trip? Based on simple mileage yes, it wouldn't leave alot of spare distance, but throw in a traffic jam on a hot day and the stress of worrying about it (for either of us) just doesn't make sense.

Hydrogen (or something else) I think is the right answer. BMW had a car running it 20 years ago! 250+ hp and decent range, quick fill ups. It just makes no sense why the industry hasn't pursued that further.
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Old 02-07-2019, 01:06 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
I never understood why hydrogen didn't take off. I remember in Iceland in 2007 there were hydrogen stations quite a few places and much of the city vehicles ran off it, when I went back in 2017 they all seemingly died off.
From what I've read, there were two main issues. On engines which were converted rather than being specifically designed for it, there was a decrease in power. At stoich, the hydrogen takes up about 20% of the space in the cylinder, leaving less room for air to burn it. This can be overcome with direct injection, which is a pretty common technology now.
The second issue was on-vehicle storage. Hydrogen is much harder and more expensive to liquefy than propane or natural gas, so as a compressed gas, it takes up a lot of space for the energy it contains..

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Old 02-07-2019, 02:14 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
Take a look around you. Most of what you see is made from oil. Well to wheel costs of any so called 'renewable' energy can't match gasolene. Not even close. It can only exist with government subsidies. Not much reality at grad schools and that is why America is in such a mess. .
Going EV won't remove the need for oil. The EIA has a nice breakdown of what oil is used for in the United States. The highest use of use per day is Finished Motor Gasoline at 9.327 million barrels per day. That is 46.7% of the total use per day in the United States.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...p?page=oil_use

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Old 02-07-2019, 02:22 PM
  #38  
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I'm old, I don't like electric cars, new things frighten me.
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Old 02-07-2019, 02:45 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
I'm pretty sure that an ICE engine produces power from natural gas more efficiently too, than the turbines which are typically used to generate electricity.
Hydrogen would probably be more attractive to the green freaks, since it produces nearly zero emissions when burned, including no carbon.
Actually ICE reciprocating engines have the lowest efficiency (which is somewhere around 25 to 27%). Gas turbines used to produce electricity are at least 15% more efficient and when used in a combined cycle where the waste heat from their exhaust is used to produce steam to run a steam turbine the power plant's efficiency is some where between 50% and 60%.

As for fuel prices we are just one Political Oh **** or Tropical Hurricane from huge disruptions in oil supplies and the resultant increases in oil prices that will drive the price of a gallon of gas to well over $6 in short order. Given the current state of World Affairs the Oh **** is likely to disrupt things far more than a Tropical Hurricane will.

Bill
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Old 02-07-2019, 03:38 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by TheSenator View Post
...A mass market of EV's will need a grid.
I just want someone to explain to me exactly how all the newly required electricity is going to be generated to power a nationwide mass fleet of all these new EV. Replace all the incandescent light bulb everywhere with LED's? Double the number of current power plants? Perfect fusion to replace all the current fission nuclear plants? How about a fleet of space based solar generators beaming energy back to earth via microwave transmissions? Turning Yellowstone park into a massive geothermal power plant? How about using all the "hot" nuclear waste in Yucca mountain to power a steam turbine generators? Tidal power plants in every sea port harbor, mini hydro electric plants on every creek and river? Maybe methane powered turbine at every land fill? Or are they thinking more like solar cells on everyone's roof, wind turbines in everyone's back yard or natural gas turbines in everyone's garage spinning generators to recharge those batteries?
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