Go Back  CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion > C8 Corvette > C8 General Discussion
Reload this Page >

C8 the last Corvette with and ICE drivetrain?

Notices
C8 General Discussion The place to discuss the next generation of Corvette, be it mid-engine, Zora, or whatever form it may take.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

C8 the last Corvette with and ICE drivetrain?

 
Old 02-07-2019, 03:52 PM
  #41  
jefnvk
CF Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2018
Location: AA/Metro Detroit
Posts: 386
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by JHrinsin View Post
I just want someone to explain to me exactly how all the newly required electricity is going to be generated to power a nationwide mass fleet of all these new EV. Replace all the incandescent light bulb everywhere with LED's? Double the number of current power plants? Perfect fusion to replace all the current fission nuclear plants? How about a fleet of space based solar generators beaming energy back to earth via microwave transmissions? Turning Yellowstone park into a massive geothermal power plant? How about using all the "hot" nuclear waste in Yucca mountain to power a steam turbine generators? Tidal power plants in every sea port harbor, mini hydro electric plants on every creek and river? Maybe methane powered turbine at every land fill? Or are they thinking more like solar cells on everyone's roof, wind turbines in everyone's back yard or natural gas turbines in everyone's garage spinning generators to recharge those batteries?
Not that anyone bothers to read it when they ask this same question and I post the same response, but here you go: https://www.wired.com/story/electric...electric-grid/
jefnvk is offline  
Old 02-07-2019, 03:55 PM
  #42  
Warp Factor
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
Warp Factor's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2005
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan
Posts: 4,981
Thanked 481 Times in 348 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn View Post
Actually ICE reciprocating engines have the lowest efficiency (which is somewhere around 25 to 27%). Gas turbines used to produce electricity are at least 15% more efficient and when used in a combined cycle where the waste heat from their exhaust is used to produce steam to run a steam turbine the power plant's efficiency is some where between 50% and 60%.Bill
Thanks for that. We also need to consider electrical transmission power losses, and how much battery charging and recovery energy is wasted as heat. It's not as simple as some people say, or as simple as I would like it to be.

Warp Factor is offline  
Old 02-07-2019, 03:58 PM
  #43  
BKorsaire
CF Senior Member
 
BKorsaire's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2017
Location: Chartres, with a cathedral of XII Century in the middle of the wheat fields FRANCE, la Belle et ses Iles
Posts: 1,261
Thanked 166 Times in 125 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by nyca View Post
The EU and China are clearly going to do exactly that - force people into electrics. Subsidy, taxation, bans on ICE cars in Metro areas. Tesla knows the truth about their US market sales, how quickly the order book collapsed after the early adopters were satisfied. Now they have to sell cars in the real market - where people compare features, look at the price, convenience of ownership, etc - as opposed to having cult buyers.
You are right ! : pouces:
that's what they want here, registering a ZO6/O7 cost me 15K€, now it's 23K€.

I believe more in hydrogen even if electrolysis requires a primary source (electricity from a nuclear power plant for example). The problem with batteries is that the rare metals used in their composition are by nature...rare! and look at the population of India and China! Thomas Robert Malthus had already predicted the disaster about limited resources for an exponentially expanding population compared to linear and limited agricultural resources for extractions.

And for the moment, no one knows how to reprocess these mountains of batteries in the future, the industry does not yet exist. Here we are burying our nuclear waste for 1000 years because 75% of our electricity comes from there.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Last edited by BKorsaire; 02-07-2019 at 04:05 PM.
BKorsaire is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to BKorsaire For This Useful Post:
Shaka (02-07-2019)
Old 02-07-2019, 04:31 PM
  #44  
mschuyler
CF Senior Member
 
mschuyler's Avatar
 
Member Since: Feb 2016
Location: Bainbridge Island WA
Posts: 3,520
Thanked 2,190 Times in 1,002 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ChucksZ06 View Post
It's not gonna happen. As has already been said battery tech is maybe half as good as it needs to be.
Half? One doubling and it will be there, probably in a year or two at the outside. Battery capacity (mileage) is a non-problem. Range anxiety is all in your head anyway. The average commute is 25 minutes one way. Only 3.3 million people are classified as "stretch" commuters which takes them 50 miles each way. Any serious EV on the road today can handle that easily right now. Plug it in when you get home. Want to go cross country on vacation? Take the other car. Or wait two years and take the EV.
mschuyler is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to mschuyler For This Useful Post:
Zaro Tundov (02-09-2019)
Old 02-07-2019, 04:31 PM
  #45  
Warp Factor
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
Warp Factor's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2005
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan
Posts: 4,981
Thanked 481 Times in 348 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by BKorsaire View Post
You are right ! : pouces:
that's what they want here, registering a ZO6/O7 cost me 15K€, now it's 23K€.

I believe more in hydrogen even if electrolysis requires a primary source (electricity from a nuclear power plant for example). The problem with batteries is that the rare metals used in their composition are by nature...rare!
Yup, future wars may be fought over battery materials, rather than over oil.
Warp Factor is offline  
Old 02-07-2019, 05:06 PM
  #46  
jefnvk
CF Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2018
Location: AA/Metro Detroit
Posts: 386
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mschuyler View Post
Half? One doubling and it will be there, probably in a year or two at the outside. Battery capacity (mileage) is a non-problem. Range anxiety is all in your head anyway. The average commute is 25 minutes one way. Only 3.3 million people are classified as "stretch" commuters which takes them 50 miles each way. Any serious EV on the road today can handle that easily right now. Plug it in when you get home. Want to go cross country on vacation? Take the other car. Or wait two years and take the EV.
I've got a 100mi round trip commute. Even if I ignore the fact that my employer encourages EV usage by giving us more preferential parking than handicapped and free charging stations in our massive parking lot that takes a good four-five minutes to walk from the back, range is not my issue at all. A low end Tesla or Bolt can easily cover what I need.

My issue is getting them to drop that last $15-20k or so to match a base ICE sedan price. When I can go buy a decent new one with 200mi of range at $20k (heck, even $25k), I'll jump on one. Give me another ten years into middle-career auto engineering world, I probably won't even mind today's $35-40k prices.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 02-07-2019, 05:12 PM
  #47  
Warp Factor
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
Warp Factor's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2005
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan
Posts: 4,981
Thanked 481 Times in 348 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
I've got a 100mi round trip commute. Even if I ignore the fact that my employer encourages EV usage by giving us more preferential parking than handicapped and free charging...
Who pays for the "free" charging?
Warp Factor is offline  
Old 02-07-2019, 05:23 PM
  #48  
jefnvk
CF Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2018
Location: AA/Metro Detroit
Posts: 386
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
Who pays for the "free" charging?
My employer, who is actively trying to get folks to use new auto technologies.

But even if I were paying it myself, it is still cheaper than gas.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 02-07-2019, 05:52 PM
  #49  
Warp Factor
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
Warp Factor's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2005
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan
Posts: 4,981
Thanked 481 Times in 348 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
My employer, who is actively trying to get folks to use new auto technologies.
Who is reimbursing your employer to subsidize this? The government (us), the utility (us), or consumers of the company's products (us)? Someone is paying, regardless of whatever cost concealing strategies might be in place. There's no such thing (yet) as free electricity.

Last edited by Warp Factor; 02-07-2019 at 05:58 PM.
Warp Factor is offline  
Old 02-07-2019, 06:07 PM
  #50  
Chrisrokc
CF Senior Member
 
Chrisrokc's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Oklahoma City OK
Posts: 1,437
Thanked 42 Times in 16 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
Who is reimbursing your employer to subsidize this? The government (us), the utility (us), or consumers of the company's products (us)? Someone is paying, regardless of whatever cost concealing strategies might be in place. There's no such thing (yet) as free electricity.
My employer has one charger that is free for employee use. The electricity is not metered and the company does not receive any kick backs from the government or utility company.
Chrisrokc is offline  
Old 02-07-2019, 07:32 PM
  #51  
vndkshn
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Apr 2018
Posts: 182
Thanked 58 Times in 41 Posts
Default

My typical "commute" is from my home to the airport, where the car will sit for the week, then be driven home. One way mileage is just about 100 miles. The problem, long term parking lots don't generally have charging stations. And even the "short term" ones typically only have them in the "1 hour or less" parking area (which I can't understand) and the price is nearly double. So If I were to get an EV, drive it to the airport through heavy traffic on a hot day, park it for the week, would it get me home through a long hot, heavy traffic drive? That's the concern. My wife's commute is a little shorter, but she has the same issue, limited charging stations at her work.

So no, "range anxiety" is not in my head.

Fortunately, she goes in once or twice a month and I travel usually no more than once a month so the rest of our commutes are as green as then can get: a short walk from bedroom to one of two home offices, with a quick stop through the kitchen. :-)

Personally, I don't buy into the whole EV trend in general. I think it makes sense in hybrid modes, but it is not as "green" as everyone makes it out to be, and it is still very location and situation dependent. Until batteries material is not so environmentally damaging and there is a massive change in how power is generated, we are really just making ourselves feel good with EV vehicles.
vndkshn is offline  
Old 02-07-2019, 09:03 PM
  #52  
jefnvk
CF Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2018
Location: AA/Metro Detroit
Posts: 386
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
Who is reimbursing your employer to subsidize this? The government (us), the utility (us), or consumers of the company's products (us)? Someone is paying, regardless of whatever cost concealing strategies might be in place. There's no such thing (yet) as free electricity.
My guess would be them. Doubt the couple bucks a day it costs them really touches out bottom line. Heck, they run an autonomous shuttle around the lot to get us used to that technology too.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 02-07-2019, 10:26 PM
  #53  
nyca
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Thanks: 0
Thanked 20 Times in 14 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mschuyler View Post
Half? One doubling and it will be there, probably in a year or two at the outside. Battery capacity (mileage) is a non-problem. Range anxiety is all in your head anyway. The average commute is 25 minutes one way. Only 3.3 million people are classified as "stretch" commuters which takes them 50 miles each way. Any serious EV on the road today can handle that easily right now. Plug it in when you get home. Want to go cross country on vacation? Take the other car. Or wait two years and take the EV.
This average commute thing means little unless you have multiple cars - for most people, a car needs to serve for both short and long trips, getting stuck in unplanned traffic jams, use in cold weather, etc.

The ICE engine is far from done - still alot of new technology coming in combustion methods (see the newest Mazda engines) that will lower emissions and raise MPG. The world is awash in oil. And most people still do not want EVs - Tesla M3 sales in the US are crashing.
nyca is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 01:06 AM
  #54  
Michael A
CF Senior Member
 
Michael A's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2001
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,068
Thanked 223 Times in 152 Posts
Default

"In the real world, however, electric vehicles are only slightly more popular than root canals. Scratch that; I had a root canal last month and while the pain was intense it lasted just a couple of hours. Having something like a Nissan Leaf as my primary mode of transportation would be considerably more miserable."

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...039/ev-future/

I think this writer is pretty much on the money.
Michael A is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 01:10 AM
  #55  
Michael A
CF Senior Member
 
Michael A's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2001
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,068
Thanked 223 Times in 152 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Chrisrokc View Post
It also has to do with new laws. Countries around the world are pushing for electric vehicles through the adoption of laws to limit the sell of fossil fuel burning vehicles.

I find it kind of funny there is such a disdain for EV here. You would think I was talking about how the new ME Corvette was only going to have a DCT with no manual option. I feel like I am back in grad school trying to explain to someone 10-15 years my senior that Netflix is going to be a hit and streaming video is the future while they are telling me BluRay is the best and the internet isn't fast enough.
"In that respect, the EV isn’t like Netflix as we now know it–it’s more like the company that designed and engineered the Netflix box in 2005. You don’t remember the Netflix box because it never made production, but the idea behind it was that you’d pay a lot of money for a computer that would download and store your Netflix videos. Fortunately for the investors, somebody at the company got a look at YouTube and realized that most people would be totally fine “streaming” to their own computers."

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...039/ev-future/

Another quote from this well written article.
Michael A is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 03:10 AM
  #56  
zland
CF Senior Member
 
zland's Avatar
 
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: Oceanside Ca
Posts: 893
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Fewer corvette owners so by definition they would be the cult.


Originally Posted by nyca View Post
The EU and China are clearly going to do exactly that - force people into electrics. Subsidy, taxation, bans on ICE cars in Metro areas. Tesla knows the truth about their US market sales, how quickly the order book collapsed after the early adopters were satisfied. Now they have to sell cars in the real market - where people compare features, look at the price, convenience of ownership, etc - as opposed to having cult buyers.
zland is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 09:27 AM
  #57  
jefnvk
CF Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2018
Location: AA/Metro Detroit
Posts: 386
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Michael A View Post
"In that respect, the EV isn’t like Netflix as we now know it–it’s more like the company that designed and engineered the Netflix box in 2005. You don’t remember the Netflix box because it never made production, but the idea behind it was that you’d pay a lot of money for a computer that would download and store your Netflix videos. Fortunately for the investors, somebody at the company got a look at YouTube and realized that most people would be totally fine “streaming” to their own computers."

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...039/ev-future/
That article misses the point completely. To put it bluntly, most automobile journalists are way out of their element trying to write outside the automobile sphere, and this one is no exception. Yes, I can come up with a list of individual technologies that failed, but that completely belays the trends they were following that did move forward, leaving old technology dead on the side of the road (pun intended).

If I want to use Netflix as an example, maybe that one iteration of a Netflix project failed. Now I can buy a TV with Netflix built in. I can buy dedicated Netflix streaming devices. Netflix still effectively killed the video store, the ICE is the video store analog in this example. How is that really supporting EVs not panning out? The Netflix box was GM EV1, the current gens are the bulk of the population in the late 00s getting broadband service capable of handling streaming video and Netflix getting their full range of movies online.

And still, I don't even have to use that analogy. Reading that article in its entirety, even the author is conceded to the point that EVs will eventually replace gas. He's just trying to drag up every tired old argument those who are unwilling to change keeps tossing out.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 02-09-2019, 03:27 AM
  #58  
Michael A
CF Senior Member
 
Michael A's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2001
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,068
Thanked 223 Times in 152 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
That article misses the point completely. To put it bluntly, most automobile journalists are way out of their element trying to write outside the automobile sphere, and this one is no exception. Yes, I can come up with a list of individual technologies that failed, but that completely belays the trends they were following that did move forward, leaving old technology dead on the side of the road (pun intended).

If I want to use Netflix as an example, maybe that one iteration of a Netflix project failed. Now I can buy a TV with Netflix built in. I can buy dedicated Netflix streaming devices. Netflix still effectively killed the video store, the ICE is the video store analog in this example. How is that really supporting EVs not panning out? The Netflix box was GM EV1, the current gens are the bulk of the population in the late 00s getting broadband service capable of handling streaming video and Netflix getting their full range of movies online.

And still, I don't even have to use that analogy. Reading that article in its entirety, even the author is conceded to the point that EVs will eventually replace gas. He's just trying to drag up every tired old argument those who are unwilling to change keeps tossing out.
Netflix killed the video store, but it wasn't their video box that did it. Same analogy. EVs may kill ICE, but it probably won't not be battery EVs that do it. Lithium ion batteries certainly aren't going to do it. Heavy, low energy density, slow charging, temperature sensitive.

And does this sound appealing to you, and the type of thing that will kill the ICE?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/05/tesl...ng-temps-.html

No way am I turning off my heater and freezing my butt off just to get around in an electric car. This type of thing is for EV fanatics, not the general public.
Michael A is offline  
Old 02-09-2019, 11:09 AM
  #59  
Chrisrokc
CF Senior Member
 
Chrisrokc's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Oklahoma City OK
Posts: 1,437
Thanked 42 Times in 16 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Michael A View Post
Netflix killed the video store, but it wasn't their video box that did it. Same analogy. EVs may kill ICE, but it probably won't not be battery EVs that do it. Lithium ion batteries certainly aren't going to do it. Heavy, low energy density, slow charging, temperature sensitive.

And does this sound appealing to you, and the type of thing that will kill the ICE?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/05/tesl...ng-temps-.html

No way am I turning off my heater and freezing my butt off just to get around in an electric car. This type of thing is for EV fanatics, not the general public.
Granted I don’t live up north and the car is garaged, but we have been seeing single digit temps. The battery in the Model 3 has seen only a slight dip in range on those days. Some on Tesla forums says this has been overstated by the media.... like everything else these days.
Chrisrokc is offline  
Old 02-09-2019, 11:55 AM
  #60  
17C7
Junior Member
 
Member Since: Feb 2019
Posts: 36
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default

A lot of variables with battery electric to be sorted out yet. One big one is cold climate operation and vastly reduced mileage per charge and general charging times. Unless the auto makers know something about batteries that we don't battery powered cars still have lots of hurdles to jump before they could ever become main stream in the near future. I have a neighbor with a Tesla and he has stated that in cold weather his mileage becomes greatly reduced and can make some trips dicey.

Last edited by 17C7; 02-09-2019 at 11:57 AM.
17C7 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: C8 the last Corvette with and ICE drivetrain?


Sponsored Ads
Vendor Directory

Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: