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Th OP throws out a negative post and hopes all of us waste our time commenting. One hundreds posts later, he got his wish. (Apparently I’m guilty too).
The Corvette has never won the Overall at Le Mans, unlike Ford, BMW, Jaguar,Mercedes-Sauber, Porsche, Ferrari, or Mclaren.
So, in many people’s eyes, the Corvette has never been world class, standing shoulders with those stories Marques. No matter what the generation.
In terms of on the street, outside of what we know about the C8, the Corvette is the bargain sports car. Great performance for what you get, yet the interior and other bits show where the money WAS NOT spent on.
In terms of race performance, the Corvette can hang and win against others in its class, and win its class as well. However, as of late in IMSA, it’s been falling back—-The Ford GT, Ferrari 488, Porsche RSR, all mid engined. The Aston Martin Vantage and BMW M8 are front engined. Aston Martin will be introducing the mid engined Vanquish in 2021-22. So, it will be the M8 that will be the sole front engined car based production car. And let’s not include the racing Mclarens, Huracans, Audi R8s, Mercedes AMG GT, and Bentley Conti GT.
The point you make is very valid. It at least is part of the explanation of why whenever the latest version of Corvette is introduced, we always get the left handed compliment of “ Best Corvette Yet!”. When Nissan introduced the latest version of the GTR, it was nicknamed GODZILLA. No comparison to a previous version, but rather that it could rip apart other supercars. And it was priced in the same ballpark as Corvette. Having the next best version of the Corvette, isn’t good enough. And it appears that perhaps GM has finally gotten the message.
Don't forget what Corvettes were like in 1988. Corvettes had about 240 horsepower.
I remember, and this article, against one of the Corvette's contemporaries, praised the 1988 Z51 with high marks. It was a World Class Sportscar then, as it is now, and the Fourth Gen Corvette was the springboard for huge gains in performance as the car continued to evolve. So yeah, I remember...
I remember, and this article, against one of the Corvette's contemporaries, praised the 1988 Z51 with high marks. It was a World Class Sportscar then, as it is now, and the Fourth Gen Corvette was the springboard for huge gains in performance as the car continued to evolve. So yeah, I remember...
The point you make is very valid. It at least is part of the explanation of why whenever the latest version of Corvette is introduced, we always get the left handed compliment of “ Best Corvette Yet!”. When Nissan introduced the latest version of the GTR, it was nicknamed GODZILLA. No comparison to a previous version, but rather that it could rip apart other supercars. And it was priced in the same ballpark as Corvette. Having the next best version of the Corvette, isn’t good enough. And it appears that perhaps GM has finally gotten the message.
Come on Dom, you of all people should know that ain't true at all. EVERY gen of the 'Vette has been lusted over, hailed as "world class", "world beating"...whatever terms, but they've been HIGHLY praised at each new gen introduction. TWO of your own cars have received these accolades. The '84 was, and wasn't the ZR-1 called "King of the Hill"...and "Corvette from hell"?
Originally Posted by *89x2*
I remember, and this article, against one of the Corvette's contemporaries, praised the 1988 Z51 with high marks. It was a World Class Sportscar then, as it is now, and the Fourth Gen Corvette was the springboard for huge gains in performance as the car continued to evolve. So yeah, I remember...
I have no doubt that the C8 will be a much better car than the Fiero was. Quality control and engineering has improved immensely over the past 30 years and GM has to get this right given the bright light shining on it
Having said that the Fiero was very misunderstood. I have a Corvette and mint 88 Fieros (less than 10,000 miles on each one). One of the most solid squeak and rattle free car I have ever driven. If you get the opportunity to drive an 88 Fiero Formula take it. You will be surprised
Some fun facts on GMs 1st mid-engine sports car:
GM’s Hulki Aldikacti was as passionate as Zora about a serious GM mid-engine sports car and a bit shrewder about how to make it happen in the corporate bean counter environment. There is a business book written about how he got it into production even as GM cancelled the project 3 times. It is required reading for managers at the Boeing Company. While many people look down at the Fiero the reality was that Hulki had a plan to bring it to market as a serious mid-engine sports but given the GM corporate environment he couldn’t do it directly so he pitched it to GM execs as a small commuter car. He used all the development money he was given to build a proprietary space frame foundation that shared nothing with any other GM car. It was structurally strong to the point where it had the best crash test results of anything any North American manufacturer made at the time and second overall only to the Volvo station wagon.
Hulki thought the target audience would be young to middle aged male sports car enthusiasts who couldn’t afford a Corvette.
Based on the car they thought they were getting GM execs thought the audience would be wealthier 2 income families looking for a good gas mileage and easy to park commuter car (the way Hulki sold it to the execs)
GM found the average buyer was a 27 year old female who in many cases had never bought a GM product before (an audience GM wishes they could attract today) something no one at GM expected.
They bought it because:
It looked sharp
It fit their “image”
Good gas mileage
Affordable
After owning one owners said things they liked best about it were:
It looked sharp
Good gas mileage
It fit their “image”
Well laid out interior and cargo management
Outstanding sports car handling and braking. (Keep in mind this was era where many sports cars still had a solid rear axle and leaf springs)
Plastic body didn’t dent or rust
Easy to park
While some people did buy it because of the radically different engineering and layout i.e. mid-engine, IRS, 4 wheel discs, plastic body etc. the majority of the buyers did not
Hulki and his team promised GM execs they would could sell 40,000/yr. although privately they (and the GM execs) were concerned that there would not be that kind of demand.The end result was that the factory ran 24/7 7days a week trying to keep up with the demand. AT the end of the year they had produced almost 140,000 mid-engine cars. In the following years it continued to out sell the Corvette as much as 3 to one. Nobody in GM saw that coming. I am sure GM would like to sell 140,000 C8s in the 1st year
GM has built far more mid-engine cars than anybody else (almost 400,000) and maybe more mid-engine cars than everyone else put together (I couldn’t confirm that stat)
Hulki always had 2 set of blueprints. The ones for the GM execs and bean counters and the real ones.
The GM exec blueprints showed a smaller car with a 4 cylinder engine squeezed in behind the driver to meet GM execs expectations of the “commuter car”
Hulki had designed the Fiero with the strength and space in the critical areas so that a small block chevy would easily fit with no significant space frame modifications. The initial 4 cylinder looked like a straight 6 in a full size pickup truck engine bay.
After GM cut his budget 3 times Hulki used the initial nasty parts bin suspension and engine to bring the car to market so he could use the development money to build the unique, high strength proprietary frame and foundation that was a requirement for a serious mid-engine sports car
The 1988 serious, proprietary $80 million dollar (2019 dollars) suspension upgrade had been designed in 83 to be part of the initial 84 car
A twin turbo V6 was designed and was intended to be an option on the 84 car.
When GM finally approved the serious, proprietary 88 suspension GM hired Porsche to tune and it set up.
GM engineers were instructed to remove the tail lights that lit up with “Porsche Eater” lettering on the 88 mules before the Porsche engineers arrived at the GM testing ground.
The Corvette of the day could not keep up with the two 88 mules on the stock 88 suspension and the 2.9 litre twin turbo v6s. Pontiac estimated they could sell it for half cost of the Corvette of the time.
GM was going to include mandatory driving lessons with the twin turbo V6 option if it had come to pass
The 2 1988 mules had custom built Alcan Aluminum alloy space frames that saved 300 lbs. for testing as a possible production option
An 88 Formula fiero with an LS7 weighs in at 2750 lbs. With the aluminum frame 2450 lbs. An LS7 fits with no significant modifications.
When the 88 Fiero was tested against other sports cars of the time GM sent press cars equipped with all season radial snow tires. Needless to say the MR2 excellent Yokohama performance radials were a better choice for track comparisons
The 1st American car to use Japanese style assembly lines and quality control processes (unfortunately the sad 4 cylinder that was the stock engine did not)
All the integral space frames were drilled and milled on a single giant machine about the size of an average house so all the mounting points were consistent
It was the 1st car to have electric power steering. With the suspension redesign all 88s had the mounts for the electric power steering in development. GM manufactured a handful in dec 87 and then recalled them to remove the power steering. A couple of them were never returned. If you find one of them for sale buy it
Road & Track lists the Fiero as one of the 25 cars that should make a comeback in 2019 R&T 25
Come on Dom, you of all people should know that ain't true at all. EVERY gen of the 'Vette has been lusted over, hailed as "world class", "world beating"...whatever terms, but they've been HIGHLY praised at each new gen introduction. TWO of your own cars have received these accolades. The '84 was, and wasn't the ZR-1 called "King of the Hill"...and "Corvette from hell"?
^This^.
Yeah I remember the C&D article heralding the 84, but that was until they drove it. Especially the Z51, which I had. And then they didn’t. Tom, I am not putting the car down. I’ve owned 4 Vettes, including 2 ZRs. I am simply agreeing w the previous poster that the Vette, outside of the US, was never really considered an alternative to the German or Italian hardware. It has always been viewed as more of a mongrel w not much pedigree.
Just listen to Jeremy Clarkson. Even when they “like” the Vette, its always w a qualifier. A quirky American experience.
Here’s hoping that changes w the C8. I’d like that and it would be well deserved by this car.
Last edited by Dominic Sorresso; 04-17-2019 at 11:39 PM.
Yeah, you're right about that...but that ain't gonna change. Haters are always going to hate -especially if the 'Vette continues to push "world class" performance for low dollar entry. It will still get accolades and hate, just for that aspect of it.
BTW...I'm pretty sure C&D drove there car in '84. They were enthralled. Until the '85 came out.
The problem with the Fiero is that GM wouldn't give Pontiac the funding to do what they wanted with the car. We saw with the final model year of the Fiero what it should have been the whole time. There is no way GM is going skimp out on the Corvette the way they did with the Fiero.
Agreed. Add to that, GM Marketing and Chevrolet killed any proposals that would out perform the Corvette. A buck was built with a Chevy small block, and a prototype was built in the early 80's with a single turbo V6 that would blow the doors off the Corvette. It ran the quarter mile 13.3 seconds. It was faster than even the legendary Porsche 930 of the day. GM, in their infinite wisdom let the car die on the vine, as they have done with so many cars.
I have no doubt that the C8 will be a much better car than the Fiero was. Quality control and engineering has improved immensely over the past 30 years and GM has to get this right given the bright light shining on it
Having said that the Fiero was very misunderstood. I have a Corvette and mint 88 Fieros (less than 10,000 miles on each one). One of the most solid squeak and rattle free car I have ever driven. If you get the opportunity to drive an 88 Fiero Formula take it. You will be surprised
Some fun facts on GMs 1st mid-engine sports car:
GM’s Hulki Aldikacti was as passionate as Zora about a serious GM mid-engine sports car and a bit shrewder about how to make it happen in the corporate bean counter environment. There is a business book written about how he got it into production even as GM cancelled the project 3 times. It is required reading for managers at the Boeing Company. While many people look down at the Fiero the reality was that Hulki had a plan to bring it to market as a serious mid-engine sports but given the GM corporate environment he couldn’t do it directly so he pitched it to GM execs as a small commuter car. He used all the development money he was given to build a proprietary space frame foundation that shared nothing with any other GM car. It was structurally strong to the point where it had the best crash test results of anything any North American manufacturer made at the time and second overall only to the Volvo station wagon.
Hulki thought the target audience would be young to middle aged male sports car enthusiasts who couldn’t afford a Corvette.
Based on the car they thought they were getting GM execs thought the audience would be wealthier 2 income families looking for a good gas mileage and easy to park commuter car (the way Hulki sold it to the execs)
GM found the average buyer was a 27 year old female who in many cases had never bought a GM product before (an audience GM wishes they could attract today) something no one at GM expected.
They bought it because:
It looked sharp
It fit their “image”
Good gas mileage
Affordable
After owning one owners said things they liked best about it were:
It looked sharp
Good gas mileage
It fit their “image”
Well laid out interior and cargo management
Outstanding sports car handling and braking. (Keep in mind this was era where many sports cars still had a solid rear axle and leaf springs)
Plastic body didn’t dent or rust
Easy to park
While some people did buy it because of the radically different engineering and layout i.e. mid-engine, IRS, 4 wheel discs, plastic body etc. the majority of the buyers did not
Hulki and his team promised GM execs they would could sell 40,000/yr. although privately they (and the GM execs) were concerned that there would not be that kind of demand.The end result was that the factory ran 24/7 7days a week trying to keep up with the demand. AT the end of the year they had produced almost 140,000 mid-engine cars. In the following years it continued to out sell the Corvette as much as 3 to one. Nobody in GM saw that coming. I am sure GM would like to sell 140,000 C8s in the 1st year
GM has built far more mid-engine cars than anybody else (almost 400,000) and maybe more mid-engine cars than everyone else put together (I couldn’t confirm that stat)
Hulki always had 2 set of blueprints. The ones for the GM execs and bean counters and the real ones.
The GM exec blueprints showed a smaller car with a 4 cylinder engine squeezed in behind the driver to meet GM execs expectations of the “commuter car”
Hulki had designed the Fiero with the strength and space in the critical areas so that a small block chevy would easily fit with no significant space frame modifications. The initial 4 cylinder looked like a straight 6 in a full size pickup truck engine bay.
After GM cut his budget 3 times Hulki used the initial nasty parts bin suspension and engine to bring the car to market so he could use the development money to build the unique, high strength proprietary frame and foundation that was a requirement for a serious mid-engine sports car
The 1988 serious, proprietary $80 million dollar (2019 dollars) suspension upgrade had been designed in 83 to be part of the initial 84 car
A twin turbo V6 was designed and was intended to be an option on the 84 car.
When GM finally approved the serious, proprietary 88 suspension GM hired Porsche to tune and it set up.
GM engineers were instructed to remove the tail lights that lit up with “Porsche Eater” lettering on the 88 mules before the Porsche engineers arrived at the GM testing ground.
The Corvette of the day could not keep up with the two 88 mules on the stock 88 suspension and the 2.9 litre twin turbo v6s. Pontiac estimated they could sell it for half cost of the Corvette of the time.
GM was going to include mandatory driving lessons with the twin turbo V6 option if it had come to pass
The 2 1988 mules had custom built Alcan Aluminum alloy space frames that saved 300 lbs. for testing as a possible production option
An 88 Formula fiero with an LS7 weighs in at 2750 lbs. With the aluminum frame 2450 lbs. An LS7 fits with no significant modifications.
When the 88 Fiero was tested against other sports cars of the time GM sent press cars equipped with all season radial snow tires. Needless to say the MR2 excellent Yokohama performance radials were a better choice for track comparisons
The 1st American car to use Japanese style assembly lines and quality control processes (unfortunately the sad 4 cylinder that was the stock engine did not)
All the integral space frames were drilled and milled on a single giant machine about the size of an average house so all the mounting points were consistent
It was the 1st car to have electric power steering. GM manufactured a handful in dec 87 and then recalled them to remove the power steering. A couple of them were never returned. If you find one of them for sale buy it
Road & Track lists the Fiero as one of the 25 cars that should make a comeback in 2019 R&T 25
excellent read and brought back a lot of memories of the fiero from back in the day. The first few years this vehicle was a huge success. I remember even my mom thinking of buying one back in model year 1984 but the steering was manual and that was too tough for her. I remember her choices were the fiero which had steering that was too tough for her unassisted in the first year.....then i remember her looking at the corvette which with its side sills was too tough to get in and out of for her and her final choice was a slick top white nissan 300zx.
The fiero frame design was heralded as a masterpiece of engineering and the ability to alter styling inexpensively because of how the body panels attached. It was thought by many to have the ability to become the next meyers manx as any body panel could easily be removed and replaced for styling updates or as the foundation of kit cars
that never really occured although it could have been an excellent kit car foundation...
oh well it was an interesting vehicle. Its too bad none of us saw the second generation fiero that was cancelled at the last minute,
if you happen to have a link to a photo or details on that 1989 fiero it would be much appreciated...
Nice overview, Formula. The Fiero was an amazing car, and amazing design. Despite owning Corvettes before and after, there was a period when I owned Fieros, and no Corvettes. So yes, the Fiero did hurt Corvette sales.
The Fiero I had with a 500 hp smal-block Chevy engine weighed 2680 pounds, and the stock Muncey/Getrag 5-speed transaxle held up fine to that power. It was a monster on the Metro Detroit street-racing scene at the time.
A production version would have needed beefier axles though, because I kept twisting those apart, even the replacement axles I had made by Strange Engineering. And I had to replace the rubber bushing in the rear control arms with heim joints, because under hard acceleration, the rubber bushings would allow the rear wheels to move about an inch forward in the wheel wells , and that much flex would sometimes create atrocious wheel-hop. But those were about the only major technical problems with putting a lot more power into the car. Amazing design!
There have been a lot of these cars running around with V-8s. It's not that difficult a swap, as the platform accommodates it pretty easily, almost as if the engineers had that in mind in the first place.
Last edited by Warp Factor; 04-18-2019 at 05:03 AM.
I have no doubt that the C8 will be a much better car than the Fiero was. Quality control and engineering has improved immensely over the past 30 years and GM has to get this right given the bright light shining on it.....
Great post... I don't know much of anything about the Fiero, but the few I see at Cars & Coffee with LS motors are very cool.
OK.
First:
Corvair was REAR engine, NOT mid-engine. Early Corvairs had the same handling issues as the Corvair's target, the VW Beetle. Both cars were equipped with swing axle rear suspension. Enter a young lawyer, Ralph Nader, who made a GREAT business decision by choosing to rail on GM (rather than VW) with his book, "Unsafe at any speed". That book ensured Nader would never have to get a real job. Of course, VW got theirs 50 years later with Dieselgate.
Second:
1984 Fiero engine fires. I could type it out but why don't you just read this so you will understand that, as usual, the company (GM) did something wrong (reducing oil capacity of the Iron Duke 4) and the customers finished it off by NOT checking the oil regularly. The Fiero was "fixed" by 1985, btw. Much like the Firestone/Explorer debacle, Firestone made a tire that was just OK, and then the customers couldn't figure out how to operate a tire pressure gauge, and the rest is history.
Companies do things half-assed all the time and customers follow along. https://www.autonews.com/article/201...-plagued-fiero
I agree with the Fiero oil issue. Nothing wrong with 84s if they were maintained properly. I bought my 2M4 SE Nov 1983 and have had nothing but fun with it for the last 36 years with relatively no problems. Once the oil recall was done on the 84s the fire problems disappeared. It's still a fun car to own and drive along with my 03 C5 and 14 C7 Z51.
Th OP throws out a negative post and hopes all of us waste our time commenting. One hundreds posts later, he got his wish. (Apparently I’m guilty too).
Look on the bright side:
The OP got schooled one hundred ways to Sunday. There is WAY too much car (not just Corvette) knowledge here to pull a "Ready/Fire/Aim" troll thread and get out alive.
04-17-2019, 05:31 PM
, and that much flex would sometimes create atrocious wheel-hop. But those were about the only major technical problems with putting a lot more power into the car. Amazing design!
