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Could we be a bit careful in mixing configurations and designations please? IMO A C8 hybrid configuration is designed into the current C8, buildable on the current C8 production line and is being discussed as being paired with a 6.2 lt pushrod engine and/or a 5.5lt FPC engine in NA and/or TT. Much of the dialog here seems to be about a full plugin EV Corvette. Much of the comparison is to a Tesla which is a full plug in EV. Then the labels e-Ray and Grand Sport get kicked around along with a bunch of other labels.
IMO, we will see a C8 hybrid as the C8 chassis design compromises don't make any sense if GM was going to stick with an IC only C8. The possible evolution of the current C8 chassis into a full plug in EV is an entirely different issue. Conceptually maybe, But is all the detailed engineering there? It's not obvious but always possible.
For the hybrid C8 there are three possible IC designs being discussed, the 6.2 lt pushrod, the 5.5lt FPC NA and the 5.5lt FPC TT. The easy solution is to leave the 6.2lt pushrod in there. That would add a couple of hundred pounds but not move anything around. Actually lower the center of gravity and move it forward a but. Better car balance.
The two 5.5lt FPC engines continue to baffle me. To utilize either ALONE for a track friendly car, I'd want to reposition the engine as it is in the C8R with a transmission between the engine and the rear axle. That's a LOT of work ($$$) and a different transmission! You could use the TT version in a hybrid, leave everything positioned as it is and make a C8 hybrid "supercar". but you'd need to beef up the trans.
Sure hope GM starts to show its hand pretty soon
Last edited by Kodiak Bear; 10-14-2020 at 09:17 PM.
I looked at the specs of the Tesla S. It weighs 4,990 lbs. Makes for a chunky C8 assuming you could fit a similar sized battery in a C8. It would have to only have electric motors for the front wheels, and a small battery. And no way GM would or could get Corvette performance from front wheel electric power only. And who would want it?
Be interesting to see it though.
I disagree based on the the technology that is available. Tesla just announced a new battery that dramatically reduces the battery weight and increases the range.
I have a PD3, it's chunky *** is either as fast or faster than my C8 (0-60).....so much for a dig monster..pretty standard for a performance Tesla. The Model S on the other hand is a complete luxury car compared to the Model 3. There are other car manufactures like the Acura NSX and Ferrari that have Hybrids that are very fast. Even Ford's Mach E that Ken Block got to test ride is insane.
As far has who would want it...me and a bunch of other people looking towards the future of the automobile and improving the environment. The C8 has to go hybrid to compete or the Corvette is going to cease in the next 10 years. Being a lifetime Corvette fan that is not something I want to see happen.
Last edited by Shinobi'sZ; 10-14-2020 at 09:35 PM.
I disagree based on the the technology that is available. Tesla just announced a new battery that dramatically reduces the battery weight and increases the range.
I have a PD3, it's chunky *** is either as fast or faster than my C8 (0-60).....so much for a dig monster..pretty standard for a performance Tesla. The Model S on the other hand is a complete luxury car compared to the Model 3. There are other car manufactures like the Acura NSX and Ferrari that have Hybrids that are very fast. Even Ford's Mach E that Ken Block got to test ride is insane.
As far has who would want it...me and a bunch of other people looking towards the future of the automobile and improving the environment. The C8 has to go hybrid to compete or the Corvette is going to cease in the next 10 years. Being a lifetime Corvette fan that is not something I want to see happen.
can't wait for the SUV types of EVs posting similar numbers.. makes me insane that GM is so far behind they scrambled the engineers over to EV.
Almost as if someone ACTUALLY drove a P100D or Lucid air and said "omg...quick I know what to do!" And then called tadge lol.
how easy was it for them to do the "SS" model line decades ago? The trailblazer SS was a hit. Then they abandoned it. Never came back to it. Dodge doubled down and sell everything even a hipo 1500 ram now.
Bring me my Electric corvette badge please. It's coming. Just going to be late arriving
Plus I read it takes 45 minutes of charge for 100 miles of range? Lollzzzzz
I can fill up in 3 minutes and get 450 miles of range.
the **** is preschool right now. I'll wait for the tech to get better.
Well No. You cannot drive to a gas station, fill up and pay in 3 minutes. And you should not believe everything you read. The Model 3's and Y's can reach a peak charge of 250 kW. My X can reach 200 kW - that is over 700 miles per hour added range. And I stand by my statement that you will spend more "time" over a year going to a gas station, putting in your credit card etc, filling up and driving back to the road then I will with my Tesla.
you don’t make corvette an electric car all at once, you slowly phase it in
Anyone think that the E-Ray may actually be the Corvette equivalent of the Mach-E? My neighbor is a GM of a local Ford store. He’s getting the Mach-E in by the end of the year, $49k base.
Anyone think that the E-Ray may actually be the Corvette equivalent of the Mach-E? My neighbor is a GM of a local Ford store. He’s getting the Mach-E in by the end of the year, $49k base.
while the new e mustang is cool, it's got too many suv genes in the mix for me and looks like a mazda and a stang mated.
not styled aggressive like a shelby for instance. Vette needs to put a bigger motor up front and look at super capacitors instead of heavy batteries
in my perfect world chevy could build a CX75 style twin turbine with super capacitors under 3k lbs with over 1k hp
the turbines are way lighter and produce plenty of power as standalone generators.
4 wd electric with full torq vectoring in a lighter platform will show the current c8 tail lights with ease
I'll always love a big bore v8 but the performance numbers don't lie and even the heavy tesla spanks all the vettes to 60
I look at the bottom line 2X 2.5X and 3X the price of the vette and not worth a plug nickel on the track unless they start adding superchargers
GM can call it the Stevie Ray if they want to, this is the way that the auto industry is going
Agreed.
this is the FIRST time in a Corvette generation that I'm sure people will have a hard time choosing a model. It's also will be the first time where a buyer can pick ANY model Corvette in the c8 lineup and itll be considered a good buy.
Whereas in the past, not so much. Like I could have never considered a c7 stingray when I was still owning my c6.
Now I'd love to dump my c7z for a c8 stingray they're that good now.
The future looks bright with the ev c9. Hopefully itll be more efficient than the Tesla's. Itll be as fast or faster but with better looks, faster charging times and more reliable. I don't wanna wait an hour to get like 100-150 miles of range .
What will the E-Ray's specific hybrid architecture be? The one inferred by the graphic in an earlier post is either incomplete, or incorrect, or it doesn't make much sense to me. For example, when you are cruising along the interstate, is your E-Ray normally running in electric motor-powered-front-wheel-drive mode with the ICE off, but with the 495-hp LT2 turning on (and then off again) occasionally to charge the batteries? Or is the E-Ray always propelled by the LT2, and maybe the motor and front wheel drive kicks in only when extra power is needed (maybe good for track, but no CAFE benefit)? Or are the ICE and motor both operating (and all wheels driving) during normal highway operation? And there are of course various other architectures, which may or may not include things like plug-in capability and regenerative breaking. But none make much sense to me right now.
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Assuming your referring to the pic I posted that is from a published article with all those details. Also sounds like you don't understand that a hybrid is being pushed to cut down CO2 pollution, which is what the ~40 mpg C8 Vette Family would have had to achieve in 2025 (until the law was blocked with the stoke of a pen January 2017.)
I'll provide a short discussion BUT suggest you download my PDF that has all the details and defines the details in that pic you don't understand. That info was reinforced in a recent article that validated it was the LT2 and ~100 hp FWD electric drive was to be used in that article said was the Grand Sport, perhaps would be called an E-Ray: http://netwelding.com/C8_FWD_Hybrid.pdf (Note it was updated last week with new supporting info.)
DETAILS ON HOW A HYBRID SIGNIFICANLY IMPROVES EFFICIENCY:
To get more energy efficiency required to achieve ~40 mpg you have to eliminate the areas of high gasoline use (and most important to many, lower CO2 pollution. Currently the C8 has an EPA average of ~20 mpg so achieving ~40 mpg would mean ~1/2 the CO2! ) Accelerating, even modesty to cruising speed in normal driving takes a lot of energy, i.e. gasoline. (Set your car to instantaneous mpg and watch how poor it is even in normal driving until you reach cruising speed.) SO with the LT2 OFF, the FWD electric battery powered motor would propel the car to ~40 mph from a stop. THEN the LT2 would start for higher speeds, etc. That can be done with a relatively small battery compared to what's needed in an EV.
Then when braking, much of that usual wasted energy, rather than just become heat is used to recharge the battery. So when coasting to a stop the LT2 would shut off and the motor becomes a generator (just like a Prius.) The battery in that article was relatively low capacity and some that size weight less than 75 lbs. When stopped at a red light the LT2 is off and won't start again until at about ~40 mph or when accelerating fast.
For the EPA City Drive cycle (shown in the PDF) there are many short duration starts and many stops. The battery has plenty of cycle sections to become fully charged. On the Highway cycle there are still a few recharging periods but LT2 would be used in 4 cylinder mode. But unlike now where when you go up even a moderate hill the engine switches to 8 cylinder mode the FWD could be used to provide the added power and keep the LT2 in the more efficient 4 cylinder mode.
As noted in the PDF the EPA average (which was defined as requiring the Corvette to get ~40 mpg) is based on 55% City and 45% highway Drive Cycle. I show that ~40 mpg should be possible.
NOW when driving aggressively BOTH the LT2 and FWD power can be used. So when accelerating fast you would gain the benefit of the 495 hp ICE and 114 hp FWD electric, as well as the extra FWD traction! As now, the EPA required test cycle DOES NOT require WOT or even more throttle than needed to accelerate at more than their specified moderate rate. The EPA Drive cycles are designed so even a low power grocery getter can accelerate at their modest rate requirements. (That is why the C7 M7 had skip shift! the EPA cycle acceleration rate to could achieved shifting from 1st to 4th skipping 2nd and 3rd, which achieved higher mpg.) Fact is, to meet the current EPA test cycle the LT2 probably only has to use ~40 to 50 hp max! But "on average" that is now 90% of the time cars are used.
Hope that helps. Here is that pic from that November 2019 published article:
idk where you get 45 minutes for half a charge. Not in a Tesla.
And I love all these long driving journeymen on here. Corvette forum where 90% of the owners drive 3k miles or less a year. Stop.
15-20 minutes is 200 miles added so get gas for 5 or 6 minutes on your 2x a year long trip and the rest of us will enjoy our tech and have plenty overnight charging at home or our destination. It is quite fun to not have to stop and get gas. All that time saved you give back a drop in the bucket for a trip.
As for E Ray? I hope it's motors front and back and better yet? No ICE at all. The car will be much faster and handle way better (see Taycan Turbo S and watch out for the 911 hybrid and full electric within a few years. That's 100% on it's way).
Yes Tesla. The superchargers at max power charge about 300 miles' range in an hour, although that sows down as the battery hits 80%. And I love how you take only part of my post out of context to meet your ICE bashing agenda. What I said was, EV's are good for DD, but I need at least one ICE because EV's still have too many limitations to make them practical for road trips. I drive from Fort Worth to Austin on a monthly basis, an EV just won't work for me. As I said, the technology isn't mature.
it's good that a hybrid is coming. and eventually an EV. I hope they come up with a better name than "E-Ray" though. Eventually, the whole corvette range will be electric so they might as well stick with "Grand Sport" unless it gets a higher MSRP than the Z06 (in which case they might as well build a hybrid drivetrain around the Z06 engine and call it the ZR-1, Z06e, ZR-1e, ZR-E or something to that effect).
"2020 SSC Tuatara has a twin-turbocharged 5.9-liter flat-plane-crank V8. It produces 1,750 horsepower (1,305 kilowatts) on E85 and 1,350 hp (1007 kW) on 91 octane. Power routes through a robotized CIMA seven-speed transmission, capable of shifting gears in less than 100 milliseconds."
Please note the displacement of 5.9lt in a TT FPC V-8. You can make that engine configuration (FPC V8) live above 4lt but only if you're using the characteristics to enhance the TT?
Last edited by Kodiak Bear; 10-15-2020 at 09:28 AM.
Assuming your referring to the pic I posted that is from a published article with all those details. Also sounds like you don't understand that a hybrid is being pushed to cut down CO2 pollution, which is what the ~40 mpg C8 Vette Family would have had to achieve in 2025 (until the law was blocked with the stoke of a pen January 2017.)
I'll provide a short discussion BUT suggest you download my PDF that has all the details and defines the details in that pic you don't understand. That info was reinforced in a recent article that validated it was the LT2 and ~100 hp FWD electric drive was to be used in that article said was the Grand Sport, perhaps would be called an E-Ray: http://netwelding.com/C8_FWD_Hybrid.pdf (Note it was updated last week with new supporting info.)
DETAILS ON HOW A HYBRID SIGNIFICANLY IMPROVES EFFICIENCY:
To get more energy efficiency required to achieve ~40 mpg you have to eliminate the areas of high gasoline use (and most important to many, lower CO2 pollution. Currently the C8 has an EPA average of ~20 mpg so achieving ~40 mpg would mean ~1/2 the CO2! ) Accelerating, even modesty to cruising speed in normal driving takes a lot of energy, i.e. gasoline. (Set your car to instantaneous mpg and watch how poor it is even in normal driving until you reach cruising speed.) SO with the LT2 OFF, the FWD electric battery powered motor would propel the car to ~40 mph from a stop. THEN the LT2 would start for higher speeds, etc. That can be done with a relatively small battery compared to what's needed in an EV.
Then when braking, much of that usual wasted energy, rather than just become heat is used to recharge the battery. So when coasting to a stop the LT2 would shut off and the motor becomes a generator (just like a Prius.) The battery in that article was relatively low capacity and some that size weight less than 75 lbs. When stopped at a red light the LT2 is off and won't start again until at about ~40 mph or when accelerating fast.
For the EPA City Drive cycle (shown in the PDF) there are many short duration starts and many stops. The battery has plenty of cycle sections to become fully charged. On the Highway cycle there are still a few recharging periods but LT2 would be used in 4 cylinder mode. But unlike now where when you go up even a moderate hill the engine switches to 8 cylinder mode the FWD could be used to provide the added power and keep the LT2 in the more efficient 4 cylinder mode.
As noted in the PDF the EPA average (which was defined as requiring the Corvette to get ~40 mpg) is based on 55% City and 45% highway Drive Cycle. I show that ~40 mpg should be possible.
NOW when driving aggressively BOTH the LT2 and FWD power can be used. So when accelerating fast you would gain the benefit of the 495 hp ICE and 114 hp FWD electric, as well as the extra FWD traction! As now, the EPA required test cycle DOES NOT require WOT or even more throttle than needed to accelerate at more than their specified moderate rate. The EPA Drive cycles are designed so even a low power grocery Ogetter can accelerate at their modest rate requirements. (That is why the C7 M7 had skip shift! the EPA cycle acceleration rate to could achieved shifting from 1st to 4th skipping 2nd and 3rd, which achieved higher mpg.) Fact is, to meet the current EPA test cycle the LT2 probably only has to use ~40 to 50 hp max! But "on average" that is now 90% of the time cars are used.
Hope that helps. Here is that pic from that November 2019 published article:
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it's good that a hybrid is coming. and eventually an EV. I hope they come up with a better name than "E-Ray" though. Eventually, the whole corvette range will be electric so they might as well stick with "Grand Sport" unless it gets a higher MSRP than the Z06 (in which case they might as well build a hybrid drivetrain around the Z06 engine and call it the ZR-1, Z06e, ZR-1e, ZR-E or something to that effect).
Been speculation on the engine for the Z06 & ZR1. Some of the latest including in Motor Trend, is that the Z06 will be a NA DOHC 5.5 Liter high rpm with ~600 hp. The ZR1 is speculated at having a total of 900 hp, ~700 DOHC from it's ICE and ~200 FWD Hybrid! No one knows for sure but those seam reasonable.
Did you read the range on the car? Over time the range will matter less as it is likely charging stations will be available along with gas pumps at the track or nearby stations in the future. Common sense dictates that as more high performance EV cars (such as the E Ray and Mach E) become more prevalent so will the charging stations. For my Tesla P3 when I put it in track mode it drops the range from 300 to 200, whereas the Tesla Plaid is boasting over a 500 mile range so it should easily have two 20 min sessions worth of use. Plus once there are Supercharger stations at the track it will take 20 mins to charge up 60% capacity easy.(more dreaming clipped for brevity)
Yup, it's the perfect car -- for 20-30 years from now, when, as you stated, charging stations might finally be as ubiquitous as gas stations, and highly populous areas like CA have finally found and spent the literally BILLIONS of dollars (and decades of work) it will take to update/strengthen their power grid, so that it doesn't go into power fail mode literally every summer from electric grid overload, even without a large EV fleet recharging every night.
As has been stated by countless engineers, it is a problem of scale. EV's are useful right now only because there are not enough of them to matter to the power grid, and all buyers are middle to upper class homeowners who don't have to worry about where to plug in their car at night as it sits in their apartment's parking lot. For a limited-use specialty car, or for mid-to-upperclass homeowners looking for a 2nd 'commuter' car, it works.
However, for mass-adoption, there are huge problems to overcome regarding our power-generation station build times (usually that is stated in terms of decades, due to financial requirements of public bonds to be approved and issued, environmental impact studies, planning, etc.), public power grid capacity and upgrades (also a VERY slow and expensive process, measured in decades), non-homeowner solutions (who will pay for every apartment complex installing EV charging stations at every parking spot?, and that cannot be done before the city updates the power grid serving that apartment complex), public charging station (EV gas stations) build-up time, etc.
Yes Tesla. The superchargers at max power charge about 300 miles' range in an hour, although that sows down as the battery hits 80%. And I love how you take only part of my post out of context to meet your ICE bashing agenda. What I said was, EV's are good for DD, but I need at least one ICE because EV's still have too many limitations to make them practical for road trips. I drive from Fort Worth to Austin on a monthly basis, an EV just won't work for me. As I said, the technology isn't mature.
the first part of your statement was only true for half the Tesla line up. The Model 3 and Model Y had different packs and the technology does it in half the time now.
Yes closer to the top it slows but that's being a little short sited. If you go from 10 to 75 percent in 15 minutes? Yet need another 25 or 30 to get the last 25%? Who is staying there instead of moving on? Nobody.
The cars are so smart they route you to where you need to be. Does it add time?sure. Not enough to make it not worth every other enjoyment the EV brings.
the EVs are now over 400 mile range and climbing next 2 3 years will be mind-blowing. I am excited for them but sad the corvette and chevy got a late jump. My brand loyalty is a plague that needs to be cured. I hope the C8Z blows me away and I come back full on. I need the E ray to show me hope as well.
enjoy your ICE vehicle. For those who have seen driven or own the future? It is bright and many thought it wouldn't be like Electric was going to be bad.. its just the opposite thanks to Tesla. Because what Toyota chevy Ford and others did SUCKED makes you wonder if they didn't want it to catch on?
the first part of your statement was only true for half the Tesla line up. The Model 3 and Model Y had different packs and the technology does it in half the time now.
Yes closer to the top it slows but that's being a little short sited. If you go from 10 to 75 percent in 15 minutes? Yet need another 25 or 30 to get the last 25%? Who is staying there instead of moving on? Nobody.
The cars are so smart they route you to where you need to be. Does it add time?sure. Not enough to make it not worth every other enjoyment the EV brings.
the EVs are now over 400 mile range and climbing next 2 3 years will be mind-blowing. I am excited for them but sad the corvette and chevy got a late jump. My brand loyalty is a plague that needs to be cured. I hope the C8Z blows me away and I come back full on. I need the E ray to show me hope as well.
enjoy your ICE vehicle. For those who have seen driven or own the future? It is bright and many thought it wouldn't be like Electric was going to be bad.. its just the opposite thanks to Tesla. Because what Toyota chevy Ford and others did SUCKED makes you wonder if they didn't want it to catch on?
What is this enjoyment of EV you speak of?
More of a daily chore to me. When I used to commute to work everyday, I would fill up my tank Sunday evening or early Monday morning, and never thought nothing about what powered my vehicle until the end of the week. Having to think about getting more fuel everyday is unlike being a hunter/gatherer. Each day you have to seek out food or fuel to get through the day and survive to the next. I have nothing against EV's, but it takes away the convenience we all have enjoyed for so long, which for me is 40 years. I don't want to have to do mental calculations every day wondering if I have enough battery power to make four stops before I get back home. And I certainly don't want to make a 30 minute supercharger pit stop between stops 3 and 4, which is probably on the other side of town.
And while I have never ran out of gas before, many people have. Do you have to carry an extension cord with you to get some juice at someones house if you miscalculate and run out of power? Does AAA carry D batteries for EV's? I never read how this issue was being addressed. I wouldn't want my E-Ray to be sitting on the side of the road because I have no battery power and no real way to get it charged other than waiting for a flatbed tow.
10-14-2020, 09:16 PM
