Your statement is not only absurd it’s completely false. Technology companies have historically paid the highest salaries, annual bonuses, profit sharing, 401K matching funding, outstanding healthcare with low co-pays and not one has ever had a union.

What union supporters never mention is the number of large companies and industries that went bankrupt because not only because their operating cost got out of control because they gave into union demands the union pension cost and liability made them insolvent. Steel, railroads, large trucking companies, east coast supermarket like Pathmark to name a few.

 

Historically, my friend. The world is changing. Manufacturing is tied to technology which is tied to automation. Companies do not need as many people. You have to see the writing on the wall. You cannot base what you think is "owed" to you based on what your grandpa got when his job was more valuable. There was little automation then, so he was needed more. I guess you could base what you think is owed to you on 30, 40, 50 years ago. Be prepared for a long wait! The UAW leader is giving his workers a lot of false hope. I definitely believe they should get wages, even get rid of 2 tier system. UAW workers do get great raises and don't even have to pay into their health care. Pensions?!? UAW workers need to invest in themselves via 401K which I'm sure GM would match up to a certain percentage. They need to focus on here and now. They also need to look at the industry from a global standpoint.

 

Believe it or not, there's a TREMENDIOUS # of non-union companies in this country who pay their employees very well.

 

EXACTLY! A company thst wants to be competitive realizes skilled employees are its greatest resource. A union is not required.

 

You disagree that your version was communicated to the public, and that discussions started in Bush's final months after the 2008 election?

Interesting. Would love to hear the alternative. Was your version NOT sold to the public, did it start in 2005 or something?

FYI, this is a "tell" for insincere argument. Offer something that is beyond dispute... the public WAS told that the UAW bribe saved jobs and was absolutely brilliant. It DID occur between the election and inauguration.

The insincere arguer will refuse to take a W, and that's the tell.

Accepting the facts I presented does not require you to admit that the narrative was false, and that the devilish thieving details started under Zero.

I was simply asking you to agree that the public was told exactly what you stated, and it started between November 2008 and January 2009.

 

You're right and that's true. The main reason today's vehicles, like our Corvettes , have great performance and also get excellent gas mileage is because of one little invention....the semiconductor. And it's true with less people on the production line, but, you still need people and technicians to service and maintain all those robots and they still need people to design and build those robots. And you will still need people who design and build tooling to produce semiconductors that without them your robots are useless. Just saying I'm not pro union at all but the facts are the auto makers have to deal with the U.A.W. so here we go again.
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I don't see where his version ever characterized the transactions that occurred as a "UAW bribe". That characterization was part of the alternate version of events. To be sure, the money paid to GM and Chrysler was used to pay the salaries of the UAW workers. But one version is what actually happened, including being initiated by Bush, and followed through by then President Elect Obama. The other version is an alternative spin on what actually happened, and also includes speculation on what would have happened in an alternate world. In that second version, " Obama interrupted the bankruptcy process with the "bailout" because if the processes were allowed to go to completion " the new companies would have been free to use non-union labor." In that second version "The "bailout" was a gift from the American taxpayer to the UAW. It saved no jobs." In the second version, if the bailout had not happened, GM and Chrysler's " assets (every factory, every tool, every trademark including "Chevrolet" and "Corvette") would have been sold for billions. " "New GM" would have built and sold cars..." In that version "the new companies would have been free to use non-union labor. The new companies .........could easily staff every position at market rates." And this would have all proceeded " in an orderly fashion with minimal disruption."

The motivation can be debated (was it to save jobs or to save the union). But the alternate timeline did not happen. So its more like a novel about what would have happened if Kennedy had not been assassinated, of if we had not used the bomb, or if Germany had won World War 2. Its fun to think about - but it never happened.

 

GM Autority (no representave of what GM thinks BUT...) Just published:
"A former Cadillac executive turned consultant says that meeting the lofty demands of the United Auto Workers union, or UAW, would bankrupt the Big Three automakers – GM, Stellantis, and Ford – if the car companies yielded to all of the union’s demands to the letter.

After UAW president Shawn Fain declared “war” on the Detroit Three, threatening an unprecedented triple strike across all three automakers if union members fail to get a 46-percent raise, a 32-hour work week, and a range of other demands. The former Caddy Exec said “the car companies cannot possibly agree to his demands...”

“Even if he succeeds, his members still lose because the car companies will go bankrupt." He also remarked that the UAW members are “easily impressed” and that new UAW president Shawn Fain is “promising the sun, the moon, the Earth and the stars."

Hmm, happened before in the mid late 1970's and overseas Auto manufactures made big inroads in the US market. Since GM is using South Korean technology for the Ultium battery, perhaps it's time to look for The Hyundi Group to make a sports car! It would surly be an EV as they can see where the US is pushing for no fossil fuel cars! Not surprising:

• South Korea is the most educated country in the world.
• South Korea, school is more serious than it is in the US. The structure of Korean life revolves around studying hard and doing well.
• At colleges in South Korea, undergraduate students are five times more likely to major in engineering than their counterparts in the US."

Yep, while we are lowing standards, saying MATH is abstract/unnecessary and graduating folks with degrees in Social Studies, Art History etc! My tour of a large Hyundai auto plant in South Korea showed few people, mostly full automation and robots.

BTW, they will be happy to sell us EV vehicles if that is what we insist will "Save the World" BUT:

• Electricity generation in Korea is heavily dependent on coal, which represents over 40% of total generation. (We are <19% coal in the US and rapidly reducing.)
• About 30% is generated from natural gas (that has ~1/2 the CO2 emissions/BTU as coal.)
• About 30% nuclear energy (France is ~75% Nuclear while we're "Not in My State!")

No wonder folks in Asia are ROFL

 

They may pay them well but what happens after they retire? Twentyone years with Pipefitters Local 208 Denver. Twentyone years as an Engineer with Union Pacific Railroad. I get a nice fat retirement check from the Pipefitters Union and that Railroad retirement aint that bad. I know I would never have what I have today without Unions!

 

always felt the same about a union as I do affirmative action. Folks in a union need to perform at the same level to succeed. The group is only as productive as the lead dog. If you are a go getter can produce more widgets than the average Joe, you’re in trouble. Meanwhile a smart hard worker can move up in a non union shop.

Regarding pensions…..again a smart person can provide a better retirement for themselves than most union funds. Why do we thing after we retire and add no value to a company they owe us anything? Your parents still obligated to give you money when you leave the house?

 

Of course, even UPS drivers have said that number is misleading. That is their total compensation package, not annual salary. Wonder what a UAW total compensation package is right now.

 

Actually the Group is only as productive as the slowest dog. This is a no brainer. When the harder workers quickly realize there is no benefit to them as the result of working harder, they all sink to the lowest production level, which is basically do just enough to get by.

 

Wonder if they have cost of living adjustment based on location? I mean, I'm sure the BG factory workers are doing just fine living in Kentucky making what they do.

 

A $150,000/yr "compensation package" for some one driving a truck is absolutely ridiculous and just obscene.

 

Look at the history of the coal miners how much were they paid before the union was accepted to represent the miners?

 

No doubt retiring and having a defined benefit pension is awesome, they are becoming less and less. I'm not so sure everyone would make the statement " I know I would never have what I have today without Unions". I mostly worked for myself - certainly didn't belong to any union - certainly didn't have a company provided pension - and I'm 100% certain I wouldn't have what I have today if I had worked for a company union or no union with a defined pension plan.

Everyone's situation is different, some need/want the so called security of knowing they have a union working in their best interest. Me personally I never liked anyone negotiating my income, I went to work everyday, worked hard tried to provide the best service I could and was paid accordingly.

Union or no union an employer can only pay so much for their employees and when it becomes cost prohibitive - well we all have seen what happens - employers shut down, or they move their business to another state or country.

One of the big underlying problems historically every individual sooner or later thinks they are worth more and more - truth be told that is not always true. And I see a trend here in the U.S. many believe they deserve all these benefits when in fact they don't.

Sure we all want to be treated fairly - as the employers also want to be treated fairly - not everyone at a company can be the chief - and to think I/we can compare ourselves to some of these CEO's well we are only fooling ourselves.

I wish the UAW and the auto manufacturers the best of luck and all the other workers out there the same.

We only care about our Corvette's getting built, there are a lot of folks out there hoping the car they are interested in gets built.

 

Actually the UPS workers NEGOTIATED deal was 174,000 in wages and benefits at the END of this contract that bis not 174,000 a year

 

if you owned a horse back then you were a top dog. Times change. Unions had their place before folks had opportunities, education and the country began to boom. Work was much simple4 back then, not today.

 

I didn't know the president built Corvettes

 

Funny, human nature hasn't changed! Fred Taylor (considered the Father of Scientific Management) wrote this in the early 1900reds! This is from one of several docs on my website discussing Taylor's work that of Henry Ford and JF Lincoln with similar pay for performance methods.
"Taylor conducted time studies and developed optimum methods to shovel iron ore at Bethlehem Steel. He paid workers by the amount shoveled versus straight time. They typically earned 60% more. Hearing of his results, a steel mill in Pittsburgh offered a higher pay/ton shoveled. A number of his best workers left but in about six weeks, most of them were back in Bethlehem unloading ore at the lower old rate.

Taylor interviewed one of these men after he had returned and he said:
"Well, sir, I'll tell you how it was. When we got there, we were put on to a car with eight other men. We started to shovel the ore out just the same as we do here. After about half an hour, I saw the fellow alongside of me doing pretty near nothing, so I said to him, 'Why don't you go to work? Unless we get the ore out of this car we won't get any money on payday.’ He turned to me and said, 'Who in the (heck) are you?’ 'Well,' I said, 'that's none of your business'; and he stood up to me and said, 'You'll be minding your own business, or I'll throw you off this car!’ 'The rest of the men put down their shovels and looked as if they were going to back him up; so I said to all of them, ‘I will throw a shovelful whenever this fellow throws one, and not another shovelful.’ So, I watched him, and only shoveled when he shoveled. When payday came around, we had less money than we got here at Bethlehem!"