Brake pads / roller bars (understeer)
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Pro
Joined: Apr 2019
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Brake pads / roller bars (understeer)
1. The C8 has 50 state legal, copper free brake pads. Just looking for opinions here. Can the braking be improved by moving to a more aggressive pad using the standard rotor. Thoughts on that?
2. GM have set the car to understeer, it seems like giving the car a bit less from swaybar would correct that, giving the car a bit more balance, but also increasing the potential for antics (see Mustang crashes) as a result fo the car getting loose under hard driving. Thoughts on that?
SO, giving the ability to change these two factors for less than $1,000 total could potentially turn the car into a track monster. My primary concern is how would these mods impact the computer with regard to the suspension (Mag ride, electronic diff, and brakes). Any thoughts on if the computers easily adapt to these small changes? I don't want to upset the car, but I'm really interested in optimizing the setup. This is only my second mid engine car (owned a few Miatas and rear engine Fiat) so I know there's a learning curve for the mid engine. I hope to learn to drive on a track, doing track days and autocross. not the street.
2. GM have set the car to understeer, it seems like giving the car a bit less from swaybar would correct that, giving the car a bit more balance, but also increasing the potential for antics (see Mustang crashes) as a result fo the car getting loose under hard driving. Thoughts on that?
SO, giving the ability to change these two factors for less than $1,000 total could potentially turn the car into a track monster. My primary concern is how would these mods impact the computer with regard to the suspension (Mag ride, electronic diff, and brakes). Any thoughts on if the computers easily adapt to these small changes? I don't want to upset the car, but I'm really interested in optimizing the setup. This is only my second mid engine car (owned a few Miatas and rear engine Fiat) so I know there's a learning curve for the mid engine. I hope to learn to drive on a track, doing track days and autocross. not the street.
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 144
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From: Spring, Tx
Why don't you wait until you drive the car! Makes no sense to speculate and make plans for spending before you get it on the track and do some seat time.
Last edited by dexterkatt; Oct 28, 2019 at 01:23 PM. Reason: spelling
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2018
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THIS. Absolutely this.
We don't know if the understeer is dialed in using stability software and shock tuning on the Z51. It is entirely possible with modern electronics. If that's the case, no amount of "speculation" as to what can fix teh "understeer" is going to mean squat at this point.
As far as the brake pads, you should ALWAYS use track oriented brake pads for track use. If you're not concerned with track use, then going to a more "aggressive" pad isn't going to do you any good, as the better pads only improve repeated stopping (fade resistance) vs actual stopping distance, which on the C8 is already phenomenal. If your concern is some C7 douche walk up to you and say "my car can brake 6 feet shorter than yours" you should A) not let that stuff bother you and B) better pads won't fix it because it is a function of the instrumented test of the C8 carrying 200lbs more mass. Put some Hoosiers on it if your concern is going to be stopping shorter than the C7 from 60mph.
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2019
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More wedge (Relative height front to rear) and more negative camber at the front are where I would start. Near zero front toe and minimal rear toe. Don't forget to double check the caster after aligning.
i suspect all the car needs is a more aggressive alignment
i suspect all the car needs is a more aggressive alignment
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,078
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From: swoyersville pa
about the pads < i changed to hawk street race pads and the rotors on 2015 and 2016 z51's melted. rotors on C7 z51's were soft and could not handle much more than a stock pad . yes many guys changed pads to dustless but im talking about a autocross pad, stock rotors did handle hawk hps and 5.0's but they are just street pads, i hope the C8 z51 has a rotor harder than c7. if not the DBA'S are the best value in rotors, AP is the best but big money >
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 5,529
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From: Austin Texas
About the pads:: the aftermarket will quickly have pads that stop faster and can take more laps at the track.
About understeer::
first) try adjusting tire pressure
second) alignment
third) adjust ride height and rake angle
last) sway bars
About understeer::
first) try adjusting tire pressure
second) alignment
third) adjust ride height and rake angle
last) sway bars
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 262
From: swoyersville pa
yes their will be many better aftermarket pads released but I’m worried if stock rotors can handle them ? If the past I ran SSP so changing rotors was ok but I’m trying to stay in stock SCCA classes ( SS or AS ) and you must use factory rotors . As I said the C7 z51 rotors were very soft and I actually melted them in no time - plenty of flames 🔥 ( not sparks ) in 45 second autocross. Honestly the hawk plus pads or street race pads should not hurt C7 z51 rotors but they do !!! Hopefully the C8 rotors are harder?
Supporting Vendor
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 30,865
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From: Raleigh NC
Pads are going to be available within weeks of the car getting released.
Rotors will take a bit longer. If iI sent one to get designed/made today I would have it in about 16-20 weeks. And we can make it out of a much better material similar to what good brake kit rotor rings are made from.
Rotors will take a bit longer. If iI sent one to get designed/made today I would have it in about 16-20 weeks. And we can make it out of a much better material similar to what good brake kit rotor rings are made from.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2018
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From: North Texas
about the pads < i changed to hawk street race pads and the rotors on 2015 and 2016 z51's melted. rotors on C7 z51's were soft and could not handle much more than a stock pad . yes many guys changed pads to dustless but im talking about a autocross pad, stock rotors did handle hawk hps and 5.0's but they are just street pads, i hope the C8 z51 has a rotor harder than c7. if not the DBA'S are the best value in rotors, AP is the best but big money >
Knowing Hawk pads, specifically the HP+, they have a really bad habit of coming apart instead of telling the driver they are overheated and failing. Had a student years ago that had HP+ pads on the rear and PFC01 (or 08s, I don't recall exactly) on front and we had quite the off when his rear pads let go without warning at the end of a straight. Son-in-law put them on his modded WRX and cooked them in just a couple of laps and he was a notice on the track at the time (granted, novices brake more than they should, but I had a similar issue in his car).
Hawk true race pads (DTC/HT) pads are pretty darned good, I still run PFC however.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 262
From: swoyersville pa
The rotors "melted", or the pads melted on the rotor? Do you have pics, because melting rotors with street pads (not sure what a "street race pad" is since that is an oxymoron).
Knowing Hawk pads, specifically the HP+, they have a really bad habit of coming apart instead of telling the driver they are overheated and failing. Had a student years ago that had HP+ pads on the rear and PFC01 (or 08s, I don't recall exactly) on front and we had quite the off when his rear pads let go without warning at the end of a straight. Son-in-law put them on his modded WRX and cooked them in just a couple of laps and he was a notice on the track at the time (granted, novices brake more than they should, but I had a similar issue in his car).
Hawk true race pads (DTC/HT) pads are pretty darned good, I still run PFC however.
Knowing Hawk pads, specifically the HP+, they have a really bad habit of coming apart instead of telling the driver they are overheated and failing. Had a student years ago that had HP+ pads on the rear and PFC01 (or 08s, I don't recall exactly) on front and we had quite the off when his rear pads let go without warning at the end of a straight. Son-in-law put them on his modded WRX and cooked them in just a couple of laps and he was a notice on the track at the time (granted, novices brake more than they should, but I had a similar issue in his car).
Hawk true race pads (DTC/HT) pads are pretty darned good, I still run PFC however.
Street race pads are HP plus with beveled edge , I said melting rotors meaning the pads are them in 10 runs under 1 minute runs. My point is I hope c8 z51 rotors are harder than C7’s . Also being that I have a C8 coupe on the way I should be thinking about laps instead of just 60 second events. As you know most tracks don’t let verts run and until now I mostly had convertibles.
Supporting Vendor
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Raleigh NC
Hawk Street/Race pads were made from the DTC-30 compound with the chamfers/shims/details of the corresponding street pad. They are since discontinued but Hawk does have inventory in certain shapes.
They make a great canyon carver pad but on track get overheated and are capable of fantastic levels of brake judder on a heavy fast track car. Like lifting a front tire off the track judder.
They make a great canyon carver pad but on track get overheated and are capable of fantastic levels of brake judder on a heavy fast track car. Like lifting a front tire off the track judder.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2018
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From: North Texas
Street race pads are HP plus with beveled edge , I said melting rotors meaning the pads are them in 10 runs under 1 minute runs. My point is I hope c8 z51 rotors are harder than C7’s . Also being that I have a C8 coupe on the way I should be thinking about laps instead of just 60 second events. As you know most tracks don’t let verts run and until now I mostly had convertibles.
What does the bolded part mean?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,666
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From: North Texas
Hawk Street/Race pads were made from the DTC-30 compound with the chamfers/shims/details of the corresponding street pad. They are since discontinued but Hawk does have inventory in certain shapes.
They make a great canyon carver pad but on track get overheated and are capable of fantastic levels of brake judder on a heavy fast track car. Like lifting a front tire off the track judder.
They make a great canyon carver pad but on track get overheated and are capable of fantastic levels of brake judder on a heavy fast track car. Like lifting a front tire off the track judder.
Supporting Vendor
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 30,865
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From: Raleigh NC
Any brake pad supposedly designed for street and track use invariably sucks at both. Noisy (and usually dusty) on the street while underperforming on the track. My old dual purpose car, I usually just left the track pads (PFC-08s for the last few years) on for the season (car wasn't driven a huge amount on the road anyway) and then swapped to a low dust street pad for the off-season.
The compound actually works pretty well on something like a lightly tracked Miata on street tires - it bites cold but will won't overwhelm tires. It also would be a good autocross pad on something like a Corvette on A7's because it requires almost zero warmup.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2013
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I intend to track my Z51 as delivered with nothing but a slightly more aggressive alignment (nothing like the published track specs). I'll let you know. Picking Rapid Blue got me a 4/13 TPW so having the car in hand and broken in for Hyperfest at VIR in May looks doubtful.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2018
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From: North Texas
Oh I get it, I wasn't doubting what you were saying, just commenting on the concept of a "dual use pad". Typically means they are not good at either use. :-)
Supporting Vendor
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 30,865
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From: Raleigh NC
And I answer that question pretty much every day.
Today's example was a 6th gen Camaro without the 1LE brakes. Good sized rotor but the pads are the same as the C7 Z51 i.e. small for the car.
I get the 'oh' face pretty often after the first track pad experience. I do like that.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2018
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From: North Texas
This is true.
And I answer that question pretty much every day.
Today's example was a 6th gen Camaro without the 1LE brakes. Good sized rotor but the pads are the same as the C7 Z51 i.e. small for the car.
I get the 'oh' face pretty often after the first track pad experience. I do like that.
And I answer that question pretty much every day.
Today's example was a 6th gen Camaro without the 1LE brakes. Good sized rotor but the pads are the same as the C7 Z51 i.e. small for the car.
I get the 'oh' face pretty often after the first track pad experience. I do like that.
Supporting Vendor
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 30,865
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From: Raleigh NC
:-) Yeah, I almost got my son-in-law a set of track pads for his WRX for Christmas because his HP+s leave alot to be desired. He can not run a full 25 minute session without pad fade. We verified it isn't fluid fade and he started getting chunks of pad stuck to the rotor indicating the pad was coming apart.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2018
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From: North Texas