C8 steering feel
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 3,169
Likes: 861
From: Naples FL
C8 steering feel
Let me start by saying I love my C8Z. It’s a blast every time I drive it and it makes me want to drive it every chance I get. I also really appreciate the immense effort the Corvette team put into exhaust design and of course the bespoke engine…the star of the show.
The one area they don’t seem to ever discuss in the design promos and is stunningly poor is the steering feedback. More specifically the lack of any feel whatsoever. I traded a GT4 for the C8Z and maybe that swap is what makes it so starkly apparent. The C8 electric steering just has no feedback at all. I’m confident the top notch engineering talent at GM could do better if they tried.
Do you think it was a budget issue? First attempt with better iterations to come later?
Its not significant enough of an issue to ruin the driving experience because the other features of the car easily eclipse the lack steering feel. But if they’d only taken a wrecked Porsche and did a little reverse engineering there too….mmmm just imagine.
The one area they don’t seem to ever discuss in the design promos and is stunningly poor is the steering feedback. More specifically the lack of any feel whatsoever. I traded a GT4 for the C8Z and maybe that swap is what makes it so starkly apparent. The C8 electric steering just has no feedback at all. I’m confident the top notch engineering talent at GM could do better if they tried.
Do you think it was a budget issue? First attempt with better iterations to come later?
Its not significant enough of an issue to ruin the driving experience because the other features of the car easily eclipse the lack steering feel. But if they’d only taken a wrecked Porsche and did a little reverse engineering there too….mmmm just imagine.
Popular Reply
Feb 11, 2024, 10:18 AM
Supporting Vendor
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 577
Likes: 1,528
Hello everyone,
So, I am not trying to hijack the thread but I thought I might just weigh in about Electronic Power Steering….
Truth be told, when EPS was suggested for the C7, I was totally against it. This was pretty much because the demonstration car provided did not show the ability of the tuning matrix or the overall steering feel that could be accomplished. I was overruled by a vice president and I thank God every day that they did not listen to me. lol
Putting it quite simply, tuning electronic power steering is like tuning magnetic ride shocks. It is amazing. You can make an infinite number of changes addressing any part of the steering feel. On center precision, steer in, steer out, low steering wheel angle accelerations, high steering wheel angle accelerations, steering feel at .01 g’s of lateral acceleration to maximum lateral acceleration. At any vehicle speed you can shape the effort curve at any given lateral acceleration.
There is no reason any car running this system should not have great steering feel (Assuming good vehicle kinematics). If it does not have a great steering feel, it’s because that’s the way it was tuned. I don’t know what the tuning philosophy of the latest administration on Corvette is, but I will say that on the C7, I spent weeks refining the steering feel for each calibration.
One final comment on the Porsche. I have not read through every post on this thread but some of them are not too far off in my opinion. I will tell you a quick story relative to driving a GT3-RS on the autobahn in Germany.
I was able to spend several days in Germany in a GT3-RS on the autobahn. To be completely honest it was amazing how unconfident I felt in this car because of the steering feel at autobahn speeds. It was very lively to a point where it was unsettling. And the faster you went, the worse it was. It was pretty much because of a lack of damping. The steer in effort buildup was not too bad but when you unwound the wheel, nobody was home. I always felt the effort of the steer in and out needed to be balanced. Not the same amount of steering wheel torque but just natural feeling. I thought maybe I’m crazy or had a subconscious bias to the Corvette.
So, I had one of our powertrain engineers go out with me and drive both cars on the autobahn. This was an engineer who was probably a 90th percentile driver overall. I wanted the opinion of someone who probably represented the middle of the normal distribution of drivers. He had no idea of my observations. We had him drive a Z06 then the Porsche. After driving both cars, his first comments where, and I am paraphrasing, “I don’t know how anybody can drive the Porsche at the speeds I can drive the Corvette comfortably. The faster I went in the Porsche, the more uncomfortable I was.”
I did get an indirect reply from Porsche about our observations, and it was that they wanted the car to have a high emotional feel. My message back was, you pretty much accomplished that.
This is not a dig on Porsche. They have a tuning philosophy for their customer base and whether I agree with it or not is insignificant.
I’m not sure how much this post helps folks understand electronic power steering better but I thought I would just throw it out there.
Thanks, Jim
So, I am not trying to hijack the thread but I thought I might just weigh in about Electronic Power Steering….
Truth be told, when EPS was suggested for the C7, I was totally against it. This was pretty much because the demonstration car provided did not show the ability of the tuning matrix or the overall steering feel that could be accomplished. I was overruled by a vice president and I thank God every day that they did not listen to me. lol
Putting it quite simply, tuning electronic power steering is like tuning magnetic ride shocks. It is amazing. You can make an infinite number of changes addressing any part of the steering feel. On center precision, steer in, steer out, low steering wheel angle accelerations, high steering wheel angle accelerations, steering feel at .01 g’s of lateral acceleration to maximum lateral acceleration. At any vehicle speed you can shape the effort curve at any given lateral acceleration.
There is no reason any car running this system should not have great steering feel (Assuming good vehicle kinematics). If it does not have a great steering feel, it’s because that’s the way it was tuned. I don’t know what the tuning philosophy of the latest administration on Corvette is, but I will say that on the C7, I spent weeks refining the steering feel for each calibration.
One final comment on the Porsche. I have not read through every post on this thread but some of them are not too far off in my opinion. I will tell you a quick story relative to driving a GT3-RS on the autobahn in Germany.
I was able to spend several days in Germany in a GT3-RS on the autobahn. To be completely honest it was amazing how unconfident I felt in this car because of the steering feel at autobahn speeds. It was very lively to a point where it was unsettling. And the faster you went, the worse it was. It was pretty much because of a lack of damping. The steer in effort buildup was not too bad but when you unwound the wheel, nobody was home. I always felt the effort of the steer in and out needed to be balanced. Not the same amount of steering wheel torque but just natural feeling. I thought maybe I’m crazy or had a subconscious bias to the Corvette.
So, I had one of our powertrain engineers go out with me and drive both cars on the autobahn. This was an engineer who was probably a 90th percentile driver overall. I wanted the opinion of someone who probably represented the middle of the normal distribution of drivers. He had no idea of my observations. We had him drive a Z06 then the Porsche. After driving both cars, his first comments where, and I am paraphrasing, “I don’t know how anybody can drive the Porsche at the speeds I can drive the Corvette comfortably. The faster I went in the Porsche, the more uncomfortable I was.”
I did get an indirect reply from Porsche about our observations, and it was that they wanted the car to have a high emotional feel. My message back was, you pretty much accomplished that.
This is not a dig on Porsche. They have a tuning philosophy for their customer base and whether I agree with it or not is insignificant.
I’m not sure how much this post helps folks understand electronic power steering better but I thought I would just throw it out there.
Thanks, Jim
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,148
Likes: 508
You’re going from the best so it’s bound to be worse but I agree that every generation of corvette has lacked steering feedback and I attributed it to front engine design. It’s too bad it isn’t better in the C8
Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 34
Likes: 24
Yeah, I agree with jswatek: it doesn’t help that you were comparing it to one of the best driving feedback cars out there. When Porsche first went to electromechanical steering, their feedback left a little something to be desired, as well. It took them a few iterations to get it to the point that it’s at currently. i’m guessing that with time the Corvette team can definitely improve on it, as long as they see it as an aspect that needs their attention.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 22,598
Likes: 14,556
The problem is you’re comparing it to the best car on the market. It’s not bad, it’s just not as good as what you’re used to. I also feel these cars must be driven very hard or on track to appreciate them. They have much bigger tires than your GT4 and need to be up to temp and flogged to feel their best. GM has been doing EPS since the C7 in 2014 and one of their marketing talking points with the C8 is how the ME layout allows the stiffest and most direct steering gear in a Corvette to date because the linkage has no joints at all.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,148
Likes: 508
It's not a bad question. It is hard to explain until you feel a car that has it. It'd almost like you can feel the road surface through your hands. It is not always a good thing except in a sports car.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,879
Likes: 157
From: Pleasanton CA
I have a C8 Z51 and a highly modified but still streetable NC Miata that I both track. The Miata has crazy good steering feel but it’s also a car that sort of dances at the limit since it’s so balanced and so light. The C8 is much heavier and with the mid engine is so insanely planted that it doesn’t really dance it just progressively and predictably loses grip at the limit. I wish it had better steering feel but it’s so easy to drive that I actually don’t miss the feel that much. YMMV.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 3,169
Likes: 861
From: Naples FL
Yeah, the GT4 was pretty amazing on feedback. The steering was just alive, weighting up and giving little tidbits of resistance as the road surface changed. That was definitely the high point for that car.
The C8 in comparison is like using a video game steering wheel that doesn’t have force feedback. I’ll have the car on track shortly so I’ll see what it feels like when driven aggressively. While steering feedback can be a very welcome attribute, it was not enough to make the GT4 a ‘fun’ car for me. I didnt get to drive it that much but regret I never tracked it. The C8Z has a level of magic in the other areas that makes me want to drive it every time I go somewhere.
The C8 in comparison is like using a video game steering wheel that doesn’t have force feedback. I’ll have the car on track shortly so I’ll see what it feels like when driven aggressively. While steering feedback can be a very welcome attribute, it was not enough to make the GT4 a ‘fun’ car for me. I didnt get to drive it that much but regret I never tracked it. The C8Z has a level of magic in the other areas that makes me want to drive it every time I go somewhere.
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Pro
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Austin TX
Yeah, the GT4 was pretty amazing on feedback. The steering was just alive, weighting up and giving little tidbits of resistance as the road surface changed. That was definitely the high point for that car.
The C8 in comparison is like using a video game steering wheel that doesn’t have force feedback. I’ll have the car on track shortly so I’ll see what it feels like when driven aggressively. While steering feedback can be a very welcome attribute, it was not enough to make the GT4 a ‘fun’ car for me. I didnt get to drive it that much but regret I never tracked it. The C8Z has a level of magic in the other areas that makes me want to drive it every time I go somewhere.
The C8 in comparison is like using a video game steering wheel that doesn’t have force feedback. I’ll have the car on track shortly so I’ll see what it feels like when driven aggressively. While steering feedback can be a very welcome attribute, it was not enough to make the GT4 a ‘fun’ car for me. I didnt get to drive it that much but regret I never tracked it. The C8Z has a level of magic in the other areas that makes me want to drive it every time I go somewhere.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,083
Likes: 1,230
From: Chalfont PA
From time to time, I see drivers sawing back and forth at the wheel in their Porsche's, and I have never really known why they do that. Here's an example of what I am talking about at a track I am familiar with. This looks overly difficult to drive.
This is me in my wife's car when it was still a street car with lights and a horn on the same track. As I recall, in the beginning of the laps on the video, that's my friend Eric Liu, who is one of the fastest Porsche drivers that I know personally, in a Cayman Clubsport I think they are called. I don't really have to saw at the wheel much in my wife's car. A correction here and there, but nothing significant.
Here's one from a person I have shared the track with on occasion, and he's been pretty successful in PCA racing. He drives his GT4's more like I do my wife's car, although the GT4's don't have comparable pace. This car looks great to me. It is calm and appears to be a pleasure to drive quickly.
I would love to see some in-car footage from a camera that is harness-bar mounted in a C8Z to see what the driver is required to do, as well as the lap times and data. PDR is great for all the data. I just like to be able to see what the driver is required to do in the car as well.
Pro
Joined: Jan 2021
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I have a ‘22 911 4S cabriolet, drove it for 300 miles and then my new ZO6 HTC arrived…. Loved it but felt the same way about the steering. Especially during hard acceleration and at high speeds. It just didn’t feel planted. Loved it, but had a few other issues too, so I sold it. Bought a new GT3 Touring, and paid a premium but I don’t regret it.
Been a ZO6 guy for a long, long time, and have the ultimate respect for the Z06, just not for me anymore. maybe the ZORA will be a lot better, time will tell. Have a GMC 6.6L crew cab, a new ‘23 Suburban RST and will always be a GM guy, but maybe not for the vettes any more. PEACE…
Been a ZO6 guy for a long, long time, and have the ultimate respect for the Z06, just not for me anymore. maybe the ZORA will be a lot better, time will tell. Have a GMC 6.6L crew cab, a new ‘23 Suburban RST and will always be a GM guy, but maybe not for the vettes any more. PEACE…
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2004
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There is an old saying in law, "in a 5-4 supreme court decision, what's wrong with those four justices, don't they know the law?" The C8/Z06 designers and engineers know everything written above, they just decided on a different feel/product. It's not that they couldn't do it, they chose not to do it, to appeal to a different audience.
And purely for interest, I currently own a C8 Z06 and a 718 GT4.
And purely for interest, I currently own a C8 Z06 and a 718 GT4.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2023
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This is one area where GM can really improve the car. Being able to adjust the steering assist or effort is not the same as being able to sense when the front tires are losing traction. GMs older hydraulic high effort, constant, quick ratio steering box used in cars like the Z28 IROC Camaro gave better feedback than the C8 Z06.
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 85
Likes: 25
From: PNW
the camaro they just killed off has better steering. weigh-up more natural, off center more crisp than the c8 z06. the camaro is such an underrated car. the z06 is slightly better than the base, probably mostly just due to the larger front tires.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,148
Likes: 508
There is an old saying in law, "in a 5-4 supreme court decision, what's wrong with those four justices, don't they know the law?" The C8/Z06 designers and engineers know everything written above, they just decided on a different feel/product. It's not that they couldn't do it, they chose not to do it, to appeal to a different audience.
And purely for interest, I currently own a C8 Z06 and a 718 GT4.
And purely for interest, I currently own a C8 Z06 and a 718 GT4.
Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 387
Likes: 224
This is one area where GM can really improve the car. Being able to adjust the steering assist or effort is not the same as being able to sense when the front tires are losing traction. GMs older hydraulic high effort, constant, quick ratio steering box used in cars like the Z28 IROC Camaro gave better feedback than the C8 Z06.
Pro
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 513
Likes: 405
The steering felt quick, and very responsive, no issues there whatsoever, but just felt like it was floating some at high speed, or during hard acceleration. It could have just been my car as I had issues with a broken rear control arm, passenger side, at like 700 miles.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 13,180
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I largely agree with the OP. I wouldn't say it's totally devoid of feel, but it isn't very good. The Porsche, OTOH, is a revelation. Probably the best car with power steering I've even driven in that regard. In spite of that, I still have a blast in the C8, and it can still put down very, very quick laps. It requires learning a different driving style, maybe.
Pro
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 513
Likes: 405
exactly right and it’s also one of the reasons I sold it…. Just not into visiting the dealer repeatedly, or potentially dealing w those kinds of problems. Right rear wheel stance looked funky in pics 3 to 4 weeks after the work was done, Sold the car 5 days later.