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my 1987 GO-KART …….Window sticker $120,000 in 1987. Paid $28k 2009. Worth a lot more currently than my 1st house.
Rebuilt engine to Porsche 934 IMSA LeMans specs and transmission blueprinted rebuilt . Its a blast from the past - pure nasty fun raw obnoxiously loud and fast when K27 hybrid turbo hits hard .
500hp 2850# wet. Only true car guys understand ==== NO power windows NO power steering NO apple car play, NO navigation, NO warranty, NO antilock brakes, NO airbags. , 4 speed manual heavy duty racing clutch LEFT leg workout.
. Yes it can kill you if you are a fool and cant drive. Drive it and you feel like its the glory days of Group 5 IMSA LeMans in the 1970s/1980. Need some cocaine to complete the circle!
Super reliable aircooled flat 6 engine ……..same Hans Metzger engine design block Porsche used and dominated pro racing for decades in Porsche 934. 935, 936, 956, 962, GT1 race cars.
Would anyone here rather have any 1984 to 1989 Corvette any model any version ……….. over this 930 Turbo aka der widowmaker? Ive owned 1984/85 vettes i know.
Porsche 930 turbo single turbo lightweight fast as hell……….whale tail . Lumpy cams lovey idle turbocharged whistling ……..wastegate noises bleeding boost . Pomeranian buddy likes to ride in all my cars. Despite 18” forged wheels, lowered, bilstein suspension, heavy duty torsion bars. Factory 505 option slantnose factory replica of Kremer 935 that won overall at LeMans 24 1979 2850# 500hp……..could add 2nd turbo goto to 3.6liter block 800hp kill everything but too rare to mess with as porsche made very few of these cars. Slope nose option was an additiona $25,000 in 1987. 2 stage paint , new glass, rotisserie restored. Wouldn’t trade it for a C8Z06 or 992GT3 or 458 spider Aperta or a mclaren 720S. Why would i trade it for anything?
could have also bought a real KREMER K3 935 racecar years ago $120k ……..could have gone HSR RACING and had lots of power oversteer like this at vintage events . K3s worth $3 to $4mill currently. She’s loose
I would offer that the "fool" part is somewhat correct, but the "can't drive" I disagree with. The 930 Turbo acted like no other car of the time...even experienced, good drivers got "caught" by the car...including me. A friend of mine had a 1979 930, I drove the car ONCE, looped it (360 degree spin, the ONLY time in my life I've done that) on a country road and by some miracle, didn't hit anything or leave the road. I "thought" I understood "trailing throttle oversteer" until that car.
That said, your car is beautiful, and no, I don't want to drive it. I still have nightmares about that 1979!
PS. The 930's had another nickname..."Dentist Killer"
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my 1987 GO-KART …….Window sticker $120,000 in 1987. Paid $28k 2009. Worth a lot more currently than my 1st house.
Rebuilt engine to Porsche 934 IMSA LeMans specs and transmission blueprinted rebuilt . Its a blast from the past - pure nasty fun raw obnoxiously loud and fast when K27 hybrid turbo hits hard .
500hp 2850# wet. Only true car guys understand ==== NO power windows NO power steering NO apple car play, NO navigation, NO warranty, NO antilock brakes, NO airbags. , 4 speed manual heavy duty racing clutch LEFT leg workout.
. Yes it can kill you if you are a fool and cant drive. Drive it and you feel like its the glory days of Group 5 IMSA LeMans in the 1970s/1980. Need some cocaine to complete the circle!
Super reliable aircooled flat 6 engine ……..same Hans Metzger engine design block Porsche used and dominated pro racing for decades in Porsche 934. 935, 936, 956, 962, GT1 race cars.
Would anyone here rather have any 1984 to 1989 Corvette any model any version ……….. over this 930 Turbo aka der widowmaker? Ive owned 1984/85 vettes i know.
Porsche 930 turbo single turbo lightweight fast as hell……….whale tail . Lumpy cams lovey idle turbocharged whistling ……..wastegate noises bleeding boost . Pomeranian buddy likes to ride in all my cars. Despite 18” forged wheels, lowered, bilstein suspension, heavy duty torsion bars. Factory 505 option slantnose factory replica of Kremer 935 that won overall at LeMans 24 1979 2850# 500hp……..could add 2nd turbo goto to 3.6liter block 800hp kill everything but too rare to mess with as porsche made very few of these cars. Slope nose option was an additiona $25,000 in 1987. 2 stage paint , new glass, rotisserie restored. Wouldn’t trade it for a C8Z06 or 992GT3 or 458 spider Aperta or a mclaren 720S. Why would i trade it for anything?
could have also bought a real KREMER K3 935 racecar years ago $120k ……..could have gone HSR RACING and had lots of power oversteer like this at vintage events . K3s worth $3 to $4mill currently. She’s loose
I remember as a little kid, I had like 4 posters on my wall and this car was one of them. I thought is was just so cool and at that time it was super cool (still is). The other posters were Corvette, Lambo and Ferrari. Although Porsche's do nothing for me these days, this was one of my dream cars. 🥂
I have wanted a whale tail turbo Porsche since I was a kid.
You own an awesome machine!!
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Thanks . If any of you are around the Philadelphia area …..Fort Washington PA simply let me know and Ill pull out the 930 and we can go for a 1980s flashback. She’s on a battery charger resting .
Here is my other air-cooled Dinosaur 1995 993 RS Clubsport 3.8liters 330HP. 2800# wet. 6 speed close ratio. ANDIAL Porsche Motorsport engine. Bought new July 1994 and morphed into German ROW 993RSCS . Drivers Ed, Club raced at these tracks: Pocono, Nazareth, Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen, Lime Rock, Mosport Park, Summit Point, Road Atlanta , Carolina Motorsport park, Sebring . Ill break this one out too if you want to drive.
C8Z06 has brought out guys like me! Porsche 993 RS Clubsport
CUP 2 tires Bilstein double spring race suspension monobals SNOW no go Sexy 2’10’ Watkins Glen long course
NOT ALL PORSCHEs are ugly
The only other cool cars ive got are some rare as they have manual transmissions. At one point i was a manual ONLY die-hard. Now - Im over shifting on new cars but i never got out of these 2 cars despite new modern technology. Still kick myself for not buying a mint 458 spider white exterior , carbon light weight buckets LED steering wheel at a blow out price during “COVID LOCKDOWN” when everyone was panicking.
If you boys come around can break these out . Only new car inbound and should arrive by this November is a GT4RS .
Gallardo spider ballon white V10 MT. HRE 20” Wheels Gated manual bought as B Day present for tall blond wife she STOPPED driving it after being followed everywhere by men. 6 speed V10 550hp converted from all wheel drive to REAR wheel only. Cars a lot better Little Pom pest follows me everywhere . Gated manual Rosso Corsa Daytona seats. Pulls the Gallardo side by side racing on the PA turnpike before i removed 4wheel drive V8 Long tube Headers, HJS German cats, rear valvetronic —-sounds like 4 *** Sport bikes coming up fast . Only 440hp. HRE 20” wheels
Had no idea . WAWA Pemberton NJ coming back from Long Beach Island NJ with Harley the POM. I assumed all gasoline had detergents and just buy 93. Thank you for the advice.
Had no idea . WAWA Pemberton NJ coming back from Long Beach Island NJ with Harley the POM. I assumed all gasoline had detergents and just buy 93. Thank you for the advice.
Energy industry professional here. All fuel has sufficient detergents to keep your engine clean. Top tier has more. Buy whatever is convenient.
Energy industry professional here. All fuel has sufficient detergents to keep your engine clean. Top tier has more. Buy whatever is convenient.
Define "sufficient". Short or medium term- sure, it's sufficient. But I like to think long-term, like over the course of 50k+ or 100k+ miles. You're going to have more carbon buildup from gas that does not meet Top Tier specs. Are you refuting the independent AAA study I linked above? You should read it (attached). Even the car manufacturers themselves recommend using fuel that meets Top Tier specs, and they are the ones that actually created this spec specifically to protect engine longevity. You may work in the "energy industry" but I doubt your job is directly related to testing detergent/additives and their effectiveness.
On top of all that, you can usually find Top Tier spec gas for the same price or even less than non-Top Tier gas, as most major gas brands these days meet the spec.
Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; 10-12-2022 at 08:33 AM.
I choose top tier gas whenever possible. No real reason not to in an area with multiple stations.
But for modern direct injection engines I don’t think it really matters too much as the fuel isn’t getting sprayed on the back of the intake valves, so they are going to get carbon build up either way.
On older cars that don’t use direct injection (like the pictured Porsche) I think top tier gas is a good idea.
Define "sufficient". Short or medium term- sure, it's sufficient. But I like to think long-term, like over the course of 50k+ or 100k+ miles. You're going to have more carbon buildup from gas that does not meet Top Tier specs. Are you refuting the independent AAA study I linked above? You should read it (attached). Even the car manufacturers themselves recommend using fuel that meets Top Tier specs, and they are the ones that actually created this spec specifically to protect engine longevity. You may work in the "energy industry" but I doubt your job is directly related to testing detergent/additives and their effectiveness.
On top of all that, you can usually find Top Tier spec gas for the same price or even less than non-Top Tier gas, as most major gas brands these days meet the spec.
In that report, at least for Inquiry #1, they use a 2.3L Ford port injected engine.
The report mentions nothing about direct injected engines, which are likely unaffected by higher tier gasoline additives.
In that report, at least for Inquiry #1, they use a 2.3L Ford port injected engine.
The report mentions nothing about direct injected engines, which are likely unaffected by higher tier gasoline additives.
I was referring to the AAA paper you provided which does not discuss DI engines.
From the SAE report:
"The deposit formation process has not been well-characterized and there is no standardized engine test to study the impact of fuel or lubricant formulation variables. To meet this need, a proprietary vehicle-based GDI-IVD test that is both repeatable and responsive to chemistry has been developed. Using a vehicle equipped with a 2.0L turbo GDI engine, the mechanisms leading to deposit formation have been studied and analyzed, and found to be a combination of engine oil, engine-wear elements, unburned fuel, and exhaust gas contaminants. The rate of accumulation was also found to be affected by engine lubricant formulation variables."
So to what extent is unburned fuel an issue?
Since the backs of the valves don't see fuel directly, the primary contaminants that are brought in thru the PCV system would include engine oil, engine wear elements, blow by gas (blow by tending to occur with higher mileage cars), etc.
From the SAE document preview:
"Helping mitigate this problem, at least two automakers have installed a secondary set of port fuel injectors in some of their models with GDI which periodically spray fuel over the intake valves. While there are other associated benefits in terms of emissions or start-up performance, intake valve cleanliness is certainly affected by this hardware addition."
So it appears that (as is known) port injection has a real benefit for this type of carbon deposition.
Additives may have some benefit but it has not been quantified, at least in the very brief preview.
I was referring to the AAA paper you provided which does not discuss DI engines.
It sure does. From the AAA study:
"Without detergent additive packages, the carbon deposits can readily form on the intake valves, in the combustion chamber and on the injector tip of gasoline direct injection (GDI) engines."
"Modern engines with gasoline direct injection (GDI), which inject fuel directly into the combustion chambers rather than upstream of the intake valves, are particularly susceptible to carbon deposits on the fuel injector tips. Carbon deposits can impact the fuel spray pattern of the injector which can lead to localized detonation, incomplete combustion and drastically increased CO emissions."
Also, you literally stated "direct injected engines, which are likely unaffected by higher tier gasoline additives" so SAE states carbon deposits (including from fuel) are a problem on direct injection engines, and then AAA shows that on their port injection test, non-top tier fuel left more deposits. If the solution for some direct injection engines was to add port injection as well, well then we are back to square one.
The bottom line is Top Tier spec fuel and non-Top Tier fuel is virtually the same price, so why would you not choose the Top Tier fuel and take your long-term chances?
Marketing is strong… a GDI engine has no fuel wash to clean intake valves. An older port injected car does and sure it’s not a bad thing, but end of the day all fuels have detergents that will clean intake valves for port injection. Top tier is a lot of marketing. You’d be shocked to learn what makes a truck load of fuel “Shell” or “BP” as the truck leaves the terminal.
Personally, I fill up at the Shell by my house as it’s the closest. I wouldn’t hesitate to use a Wawa at all as they have a very robust operation.
The issue is small mom and pop stations that rarely turn premium fuel. More chance of it being old and or not the right fuel. Shady operators will put regular in everything.
"Without detergent additive packages, the carbon deposits can readily form on the intake valves, in the combustion chamber and on the injector tip of gasoline direct injection (GDI) engines."
"Modern engines with gasoline direct injection (GDI), which inject fuel directly into the combustion chambers rather than upstream of the intake valves, are particularly susceptible to carbon deposits on the fuel injector tips. Carbon deposits can impact the fuel spray pattern of the injector which can lead to localized detonation, incomplete combustion and drastically increased CO emissions."
Also, you literally stated "direct injected engines, which are likely unaffected by higher tier gasoline additives" so SAE states carbon deposits (including from fuel) are a problem on direct injection engines, and then AAA shows that on their port injection test, non-top tier fuel left more deposits. If the solution for some direct injection engines was to add port injection as well, well then we are back to square one.
The bottom line is Top Tier spec fuel and non-Top Tier fuel is virtually the same price, so why would you not choose the Top Tier fuel and take your long-term chances?
Gotcha, missed that part of the document, I was skimming sections.
The point I take away from the SAE paper is that at least two auto manufacturers think it makes sense to add port injection to direct injected engines to help reduce carbon deposits.
When I dropped my car off to get upgraded AIM had to clean the intake valves at only 45K miles due to buildup and this is a car that I would guess has always had good gas in it.
I mention that because it can be pricey if it becomes regular maintenance and apparently some makers want to avoid or reduce that.
My takeaway is that additives might help DI but not to the extent of port injected.
Marketing is strong… a GDI engine has no fuel wash to clean intake valves. An older port injected car does and sure it’s not a bad thing, but end of the day all fuels have detergents that will clean intake valves for port injection. Top tier is a lot of marketing. You’d be shocked to learn what makes a truck load of fuel “Shell” or “BP” as the truck leaves the terminal.
Personally, I fill up at the Shell by my house as it’s the closest. I wouldn’t hesitate to use a Wawa at all as they have a very robust operation.
The issue is small mom and pop stations that rarely turn premium fuel. More chance of it being old and or not the right fuel. Shady operators will put regular in everything.
Marketing is strong… a GDI engine has no fuel wash to clean intake valves. An older port injected car does and sure it’s not a bad thing, but end of the day all fuels have detergents that will clean intake valves for port injection. Top tier is a lot of marketing. You’d be shocked to learn what makes a truck load of fuel “Shell” or “BP” as the truck leaves the terminal.
Personally, I fill up at the Shell by my house as it’s the closest. I wouldn’t hesitate to use a Wawa at all as they have a very robust operation.
The issue is small mom and pop stations that rarely turn premium fuel. More chance of it being old and or not the right fuel. Shady operators will put regular in everything.
a) It's not "marketing". Several car manufacturers themselves came up with the spec in order to preserve their engine longevity, and they don't make a dime of profit off gas brands meeting the spec. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Ti...soline#History
b) I pointed to an independent, reputable study from AAA showing the effects. If you have a different study showing the opposite, please post it.
c) I never said there was a difference between Shell fuel and BP fuel. But there is a difference between fuel that meets Top Tier specs (Shell, BP, Sunoco, etc. etc.) and fuel that does not (eg. Wawa).
d) Top Tier spec has nothing to do with premium fuel. The spec has to be met at all fuel grades and octane levels.
e) Top Tier fuel doesn't cost any more than non-Top Tier fuel in the real world.
a) It's not "marketing". Several car manufacturers themselves came up with the spec in order to preserve their engine longevity, and they don't make a dime of profit off gas brands meeting the spec. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Ti...soline#History
b) I pointed to an independent, reputable study from AAA showing the effects. If you have a different study showing the opposite, please post it.
c) Top Tier spec has nothing to do with premium fuel. The spec has to be met at all fuel grades and octane levels.
d) Top Tier fuel doesn't cost any more than non-Top Tier fuel in the real world.
It serves as marketing... because most engines will run perfectly with some level of carbon on the valves. I've built a couple LS6s that only got good fuel and they all had some carbon on the valves and ran perfectly and made the power they were supposed to. A car with regular maintenance isn't going to have issues being fed regular gas it's entire life. Sure top tier is better, but it's not critical. Also, I never related it to octane, I simply said as a Corvette owner who only uses 92 or higher, the bigger issue on a trip is a station's turnover vs. tier of fuel.
Your car isn't going to be be negatively impacted by filling up at Wawa.
10-10-2022, 01:38 PM
