Hi

It is time for me to make the decision on heads (alum) and cam for a new motor. My restrictions are 4.11 gears with a Keisler 5 speed and a 66 bubble hood. I liked my old L72 with a solid cam (crane) and a few other mods but those days are gone. With my gears I prefer a 6500 or so shift point. I have secured a 454 block through a local builder to be stroked to 496 and run on 93.

Some track time is planed but the car has never been a daily driver. If I had the room I would like something along the line of a Team G intake but seem to be limited to a RPM R Air Gap.

So I am looking for some suggestions to reach a target of 650 hp for low 11 high 10 potential if that is not unreasonable. I will be running through 2" headers w/ 3 " collector going into 2.5 inside dia. side pipes on the street. (yea I know its loud). I am going to start with a 850 dp but I realize a larger HP model of 950 or better will most likely be called for.

I just "found" this section of the forum last week and have read the BB entries for the last 50 pages. Looking at some of the awesome results from ones like 427 hotrod I know we speak the same language. However my knowledge is 1 on a scale of 10 and would really appreciate some suggestions.

I do not mind infrequent lash settings but I would like to think an adjustment can be good for 4-5000 miles with 50,000 mi longevity

Thanks

Doug

 

A 11-1 engine is about all you can run with 93-94 pump gas no matter what the size. It may work with the correct camshaft and heads but really stretching it to get anywhere near the indicated the HP you want. Consider Dart heads and intake on their web site as I have one car set up and performing close to where you want to be but with a LS7.

 

Hi Ironcross

Thank you for your reply

If I had the room for a Dart intake I would use it along with their heads. Unfortunately their heads are also not part of the available options as I already am restricted to working with stock height for exhaust ports because of my headers going into side pipes.

It is highly possible that after working with what appears now to be best that at some point I will add a NO2 of 150 or less.

The oval port heads show promise but I really like those long sweeping S curves (I did not say freeway ramps LOL) that are best navigated in the 5000 to 6500+ rpm range.

In all the posts in this forum I have not noticed any comments about the Edelbrock R heads. If possible I would like to hear from someone who has a hands on opinion of them.

In my last rebuild I used a hyd roller (284 Comp cams) and it is not a really bad cam but I have enjoyed mech cams much more than I have this one. If someone has some input on either a mech flat or roller with a RPM air gap I would appreciate hearing their opinions. If they can add anything about the Edelbrock heads that would be a real bonus.

Thanks

Doug

 

Actually there are a lot of good choices for aluminum BBC heads. If you are limited to stock exhaust port, that does narrow your choices. The Edelbrock Vic Jr series and Brodix Race Rites both have standard exhaust port locations. I’m not sure if the Race Rites have a full CNC version or not – you may be better served w/ the added intake port volume afforded by the CNC Vic Jr R-port heads, particularly if you’re stepping up to a 496 and possibly a 150 NOS shot.

The RPM Air Gap is a great intake manifold. Another one to consider is the Holley Strip Dominator. This is a single plane intake and will fit under the factory hood. You will not be at a loss for low end torque w/ a 496 so I wouldn’t shy away from a single plane intake. The Edelbrock Vic Jr intake will not fit w/o modification.

Your 2.5” side pipes, for all their sound and fury, will be a modest restriction for your 496. You may want to look into other options. A healthy 496 needs to breathe.

A good solid lifter cam will easily run up to 6500 rpm and lash adjustment is infrequent. I have a good friend who runs a solid cam w/ 270 degrees @ .050” with .640” lift on his 10:1 502 in a 64. This is a surprisingly streetable combination, and he absolutely beats the snot out of it on a regular basis. He also runs a 200 HP NOS shot. He jokes about taking the valve covers off every year just for the heck of it as he’s never had to make an adjustment in 5+ years of operation. If I hadn’t driven his car and seen it in action, I’d never believe he had such a radical cam and such decent street manners. That said, you’ll probably want to shoot for something in the mid 250 degree range @ .050” with about .600” lift. Keeping lash will not be a problem.

You might also consider a mild street roller cam. As long as you don’t go crazy with lift and lobe intensity, solid rollers can be very reliable. The Comp 288AR is a very reliable solid street roller that is easy on parts. Crane also has a nice lineup of street rollers. If you decide to go this route, don’t skimp on lifters. Spend the $$$ and get lifters w/ pressurized oiling. Isky Red Zones or Crower w/ HIPPO are the gold standard in solid roller lifters. The new Comp lifters now feature pressurized oiling, but they’ve got a sketchy reputation on their previous version.

Take care,

Mark

 

Thanks Mark

You have given a good deal of advice and I appreciate it. I am going to look into that Holley intake you mentioned. That will make the man doing the build happy as he is really against me using a dual plane to obtain the performance I want.

I agree completely even though with this inside diameter being 3/4" more than factory original it is still a choke point. The manufacture of the header (Stahl) suggested having a set of covers shaped to cover 3" dia. straight pipes but that would not work in my gated restricted access neighborhood. So to keep the look I like I will just have to do with a easy disconnect for trips to the track and a loss on the street. (Jerry Stahl figured 30 to 40)

Unfortunately all the tracks around me are 1/8 mile and I will not be able to afford the necessary rear end mods to do serious launching until next year.

Thanks for the advice on the cam and lifters (especially the oiled lifters part) as I am leaning towards a solid roller. I hope to have the motor completed by the 1st of the year and installed within a couple of weeks afterwards. The man doing the build dynos the motors before he turns them over and I will do it again on a chassis dyno. The losses suffered through those sidepipes will be interesting to see and I will post the results for the benefit of others.

Thanks again

Doug

 

Hi Mark

I went and checked the numbers for clearance on that intake with a stock air cleaner and I ran into a problem. I am currently running a 850 Holley DP on a stock L72 Intake

The front and rear of the stock intake pad height numbers are 4 1/8 front and 4 5/8 rear divided by 2 equals 4.37.

The figures given by Holley for the strop dominator intake are front 5.11 and rear 5.97 added and divided by 2 equals 5.54. Subtracting mine from what would be with the Holley intake gives me a needed 1.17" to use that intake.

However when I did the play dough test the best that I can come up with for additional room is .8"" (and I have a decked block and milled intake) so I figure .75 is the break point. Obviously I have a problem here so I figure you must have a different air cleaner in mind. (Or a lower carb)

I am figuring on changing to a Holley HP model that is without a choke tower and I know there are different drop bases and tops as well as tops that allow air to pass through. I have done the small thing of removing the rain shields from the louvers in the bubble but am concerned about choking off a good setup because of the space issue.

Would you please tell me what air cleaner set up you are using or any other mods to make this intake work.

Thanks a lot in advance

Doug

 

Boy, these are the kind of deals Mark and I love to get in the middle of!!

A 496, 4.11's and a 5 speed= lots of fun!!

On the heads, I would aim for something other than the Edelbrock/GM rectangular ports. They are fair...but there are much better out there.

I know Mark went through the deal with his raised port heads. Stahl was going to build him a set of headers, but you need to ship heads to him etc. Mark got some done closer to home and they turned out beautiful. We also have a buddy who just out a tall deck 598 with raised port Dart heads in his C-3. He was using Hooker sidepipe headers and the right side went right on. The left side needed a little work,,but not terrible. He ground the welds out of the tubes and pushed them slightly further into the flange and then rewelded them. Worked beautifully!! Check with him...he's Pef427 here on the Forum.

But anyway, there are several folks here with AFR heads on their cars and none are reporting header issues on regular blocks even though ports are raised .300 on them.

I used Hooker 2-1/8" headers on my 540 with Brodix heads raised .600. They actually fit better on these heads than they do on regular ones. They did need one dimple by steering box.

But 2" headers would be right in line with what you are describing on a 496.

I would look seriously at the AFR 315 or 335cc CNC heads, the BMF 310's or 335's or the Brodix line. Good heads make all the difference.

You can undercam good heads and still make incredible power, but with bad heads, you just can't throw enough cam in it to make it work well.

Mark will show you pics, but he has the L-88 filter assy on his. I used one of the older Team G single planes on mine with a Dominator and it cleared hood..but just barely. I currently have a Super Victor and Dominator under my stock hood...but it took a little trickery to do it!!

On cams...you're definitely thinking right on using a solid. If you go roller, the door is wide open..there are tons of choices and once you narrow down heads and stuff, we can help you pick. Between the group of us, we've run quite a few versions of them over the years and have a pretty good idea what does what.

Mark is also right on lifters....other than mega $$ Jesel's, I think Isky Red Zones are the best, followed clsoely by Crower with Hippo option. Next is the newer Comps with the pressurized oiling.

For dead reliability and never having to mess with it...a good nasty flat tappet with EDM type lifters will be nearly bulletproof.

I can guarantee you it will like a 1000HP Holley. We have one friend who played with a mild 540 with GM/Edelbrock rectangular ports. He picked up 30 RWHP going from GM L72 dual plane to a Holley Strip Dominator. Going from the 850 DP to the 1000HP picked up 17 more RWHP!! Thats incredible!! Plus he got 18.9 mpg with a Tremec and 3.08's.

JIM

 

Hi Jim

Thank you for your reply.

I had noticed the lack of use of the Edelbrock heads being used by members here that are getting the numbers I like to hear. Hopefully I have not gotten to far ahead of myself on the heads because I already have the headers. However I will call Stahl on Monday to see what they say about what they have already made fitting the .300 raised ports.

BTW congrats on those ET's, those are some really impressive times.

Thanks again

Doug

 

Thanks....the weather is getting nice here in TX,,,I need to get to the track soon and finally nail down that elusive 9 sec pass. It loves to run 10.0's in the hot weather...141+ MPH is enough to run deep into 9's, but my Viper huntin' 3.07 rear gears aren't the best for the dragstrip.

Just gotta find a track that doesn't have an issue with a 9 sec convertible with no cage!!

Your times are easily within reach. I was hitting 11.20's@123 with the oval port 427 and 3.36 gears. I was launching real easy to save parts. My 427 was probably 550HP max....so 650 in a 496 will be a cinch!


JIM

 

Damn I have to apologize Doug, I honestly throught the Holley Strip Dominator would fit. I previously ran it w/ a L88 air cleaner assembly on a (stock) big block 67 hood. That being the case, the only way apparently it will fit is with a smaller air filter (definitely not recommended) or with a bigger drop base. I'm not aware of a lower air cleaner base than the GM unit, but its possible they are available. Potential sources might include:

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/catego...?catcode=34003

http://www.ramairbox.com/

http://www.rrpinc.com/catalog/air_cleaners.htm

Again Doug I apologize as I thought this would fit your application.

Mark

 

And If you can accept a raised exhaust port head, I've obviously had great results w/ the CNC AFR heads. If you go aggressive cam and push at least 11:1 CR, you could probably use the 335 heads. Otherwise the 315 CNC would probably be best.

 

Hi Mark

Chances are there might be a slight difference between 66 and 67 hoods. However following the lead taken by you and Jim I went to the Weiand site and found the following single plane that will fit. Here are the specs and I am curious if you or anyone else has any firsthand knowledge of it.

Thanks again

Doug

Single Plane/Open Plenum Design
4150 Style Square Bore Carb Mounting Flange
Machined for Standard Deck Blocks
Power band: 1800-7300 RPM
Height: Front 4.50", Rear 6.00"
Port Size: 2.27” height 1.54" width
Parts & Kits for 7513
P/N DESCRIPTION
8204 Tall Deck Rectangular Port Manifold Spacer Kit
Technical Information
Instructions for Part# 7513
General Information for Part# 7513
Shipping Dimensions
L 23in x W 11.5in x H 22.9in
Weight 22.9lb

 

Ditto on the 315's being the safe bet if my headers will work. BTW here is the URL for that intake from Weiand
http://www.holley.com/7513.asp

 

That's one of the older design small single planes. It will do OK...but you could sure use more if we can find a way to fit it.

I have an L-72, an older Holley Strip Dominator and an older Team G out in the garage. I swear I thought they were actually all very close in real height overall. I suppose I need to actually measure them again to refresh my memory.

People wonder about me sometimes, but the old Edelbrock C-427 dual planes ran very well. They are about same look and height as an L-72..but they have much larger runners. I have one of the C-454's for a Dominator I'm going to play with one of these days. You might look on e-bay..the pop up occasionally. I've seen the C-454's match identical with the team G's on back to back tests at the track. This was in a low 10/high 9 sec race Camaro. Check this link..it's for a later version of it for a Dominator...but you can get the idea..pretty much the same as the C-454. You would need the C-427 for a 4150 style carb. A nice big single plane would do better probably..but these aren't that bad.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EDELB...QQcmdZViewItem


And for some reason I thought I had heard the '66 hood was a hair taller than the '67....hmmnn.....must be severe brain fade here...


JIM

 

Ha Ha I kinda doubt that. I have read many of your posts along with Mark and others who have forgotten more than I know.

One of the links that Mark provided has some drop bases that could make the difference needed so maybe the break needed to make the new singles work is just a phone call away. That along with the HP model missing the air horn might provide some more room.

I see where that company is within driving distance and it might be time well spent. I know the last time I was on a chassis dyno we were playing with trying to get an extra inch in the cleaner. By mixing some over the counter parts we got close but still had a little ways to go.

I wonder why Edelbrock would bring out an intake that is less performance than an earlier one but I have heard that before about the old C427 intake. Still I will have to wait on what the word is on the headers fitting the raised exhaust ports. Stahl headers are expensive and with my decreasingly smaller instead of the better "bigger as it goes back" might make moot of any benefits from a less than ideal single plane.

If I was still with the flares that I just got rid of I would just go ahead and run one of those C3 L88 style hoods that have space for a small tunnel.

Oh well, we will just have to wait and see but seeing how well you have done does not leave room for not being as good as possible.

Thanks

Doug

 

For sure the better single planes will beat the old C-427's and C-454's on the dyno. Especially on a big motor..they were desiogned for bad boy 427's and 454's of the day. But back then the Team G was the neatest greatest thing out there and we all just had to have one. Turned out it wasn't any faster down the track. What it made on the top end, it sacrificed in the middle.

I would guess the RPM air gaps would do better to, but it would be neat to see a track test on a 10 or 11 sec car. Sometimes what's new isn't always that much better...but the Air Gaps I truly think are nice intakes. But again, they were designed for 454" sized motors..not 500"+. I know some folks who have run them on 505's in heavy cars running 10's and said there was very little actual performace difference between them and a Victor Jr. Plsu the air gap drove better. But again, that's an automatic in a heavy car. We are dealing with stick shift cars in lighter cars.....makes a huge difference.

I'm using a Super Victor which by all rights is too large for what I do, but it has no lack of throttle response and it drives fine...plus pulls like crazy on the top end.

To get it to fit, I literally installed 1" spacers under body mounts and raised whole body up on frame. Then you lower car back down with springs and stuff. No one ever notices and it allows you to get more stuff under stock hood! Plus I use the drop base filter from ramairbox.com to clear it all.


JIM

 

Hi Jim

Well tomorrow will be the yea or nay on a lot of what we are speaking about. I have some reservations of Stahl Inc. thinking that the headers will work being raised up .300 because these were made 1/2 inch bigger than normal and still fit under stock covers. I was told it would be close. In addition to that the already restrictive 2 1/2 dia chambered pipes have an outside dia of 3" and that to is critically close for the stock sidepipe covers.

As you can see I am mentally preparing myself for the no go news. However I will ask what it takes ($) for them to make them work with raised ports. If it is just sending them back with a reasonable price for adding .300 inch no problem however that addition will have to be X 8 the way they are designed.

That is some super trick info you shared on making things fit. The only reason I went with a 496 instead of something bigger was clearance issues that you have just solved.

Maybe I should consider selling a ready to be stroked marine 454 and some really nice headers. Whatever I know Mr Stahl does not get in until late afternoon and it will ultimately be up to him as they only make them per order.

If it gets way out of line then I will just go ahead and make the best of the limitations that I have unwittingly and unfortunately set. The car was off the road for 9 years for a frame off and then I was very unhappy with the low compression / hydraulic cam engine rebuild. Consequently either way I will still be light years ahead and having "fun" again.

Thanks again

Doug

 

Hey, a 540 is identical on the outside as a 427. It's still a short deck motor. The only reason I had clearance issues was my need for the monster intake.

Ck with Mark.....he had a set of custom headers for his car sitting in the garage. They fit the .600 raised Brodix heads in his car. Plus he managed to stuff 3.5" pipes sorta under stock covers. For sure some 3" could be made to go easily.

.300 isn't too big a deal. We're talking 1/4" here. Maybe get some references of folks Stahl has sold headers to and get some pics of them around the steering box. That's the only place you're going to be tight if at all.

We've got connections on Dart blocks and stuff..you could build a killer 540-565" motor and have some REAL fun!!

Or as we mentioned, Patrick has proven that putting a 598-632 in isn't a terrible deal either....but the hood issue comes up again for the type of intakes motors like that need.

JIM

JIM

 

Hi

I guess I forgot to push the submit button to make my last post.

Well what I said was that the headers will not work with the raised exhaust ports so I will proceed with the Edelbrock heads. Thanks to the info shared I will keep the mech. roller but limit it to 240/600 thereabouts and go with the rpm air-gap. The additional hood clearance with the other info on alternative drop bases will probably allow for a taller air cleaner and that is very good.

It will not be a "killer" motor like some here but it will still keep up with the traffic so to speak. Of course the N2O is always still on the table but I would probably not ever go beyond a 100 or 150 max shot if at all.

Thanks for all the help and this forum along with the members here have been very helpful.

Doug

 

I'd still sure pay attention to the Brodix Race Rites over the Edelbrocks any day. Much better quality casting and much more power!! Plus stock ex port location.


JIM