Building a 383 TPI stroker. Here's what I have settled on thus far...
'98 4 bolt main roller truck block, new roller lifters, PR's and Scorpion rockers. Cola 3.75 forged crank (one piece). New AFR 195 fully CNC'd, with 7/16" studs. The builder will re-do the seats and install severe duty (three angle) SS valves. I'm open for suggestions on good, (but not outrageous $$$) 6" rods and a cam that will work well with the stroker and big base and runnered TPI. I'm leaning towards a couple of different options on both, but am more interested in your recommendations. The car is used 90% on road courses, but is still street legal. I'm going stealthy. No fancy valve covers etc. ;)


[Modified by h rocks, 5:08 AM 2/17/2002]

 

Lunati makes an affordable street rod good to 450hp and 7k rpm.

 

Thanks, yea, I saw that one, but with the torque ~500#/ft. and the HP just below their max recommendation, I was a bit leary about them. Their next step up gets you in Oliver territory.

 

They will be fine. There is some safety factor at 450hp. It's a conservative rating.

 

Anybody have any cam recommendations? BTW, I think I'm going to go with HRC (Howard's rods) good for 700hp. I'm not too concerned with the Lunati HP restriction. The real torture test on the road course is the constant on-off throttle, full range of RPM's, and most of all, the 500#/ft. of torque this thing will put out.

 

make sure your rod/cam combo are compatible.

So require a reduced base circle cam.
You can also get "stroker" rods with extra shoulder clearence.

 

H-Rocks, I must say I’m rather surprised! You seem to be one of the best informed on the topic of suspensions. It would seem although, engines are not your forte’? A 383 with a TPI Intake will be rather RPM limited even with all the hi-flow parts. 500Ft./Lbs. of Torque isn’t going to happen with that combo, unless your talking about a >3000RPM converter producing Tq. multiplication before stall, or a power adder of some kind?

The AFR 195cc heads have tall intake ports, which are designed for tall port intake manifolds like the Edelbrock Victor. The 190’s would be a better fit, and flow almost the same CFM as the 195’s, per AFR. The OE TPI Intake runners have a smaller ID than the OE 155cc, D-port Aluminum Vet Heads. Even the aftermarket “Hi-flow” runners are smaller than the Accel SuperRam‘s. If you’re going for a mid-range Tq. Engine, think air charge VELOCITY. For max Tq, it’s better to have Heads with intake runners equal sized, or tapered to smaller than that of the runners of the Intake system. Not the other way around!

A practical 6” rod for your application would be the Eagle ESP H-Beam, should be able to pick ‘em up for around $400-450. They are rated well over what your combo will do even on a 100Hp shot of squeeze. The only draw back is the weight, about 660gm., which will probably necessitate Mallory metal in your $600+ crank-ouch! If you can find strong light 6” I-Beams that’ll clear the Cam your in business!

Sorry if I sounded like an A-hole, just to make you feel a little better, my 383 been sitting on the engine stand now for over a year:mad . And to boot I’m having to send my TPiS/AFR 190’s back in to get a few bugs worked out too-Doh!:cry

NanoBrain AKA RU4L98


[Modified by NanoBrain, 12:27 PM 2/18/2002]

 

You're correct Brain, engines are not my gig. I just know enough to be dangerous. That's why I posted on this forum. There are some guys that are as hard core about engines as I am about brakes and suspensions. I would be silly not to take advantage of their knowledge.

I respectfully disagree with your shoot down of on the projected flywheel torque values. What is YOUR projection, if not close to 500#/ft? A couple of respected Forum members have crunched numbers for me on their various desktop dyno programs and have independently arrived at that # with this combo. (Also, ask Joe Raymond what his 355 is pulling. Check his dyno sheets on his website)

AFR did not specify that there would be any port miss-match with the 195's. I will have my engine builder confirm that.

I know a lot of guys use the Eagle rods and have had good luck with them. I may not have specified in my earlier post that I wanted to use a domestically forged rod made from USA steel in the US. China does not qualify. The HRC rods have sufficient clearance for a stroker.


[Modified by h rocks, 7:56 AM 2/18/2002]

 

Although I haven't used any current PC Dyno software, I've heard they’re usually pretty close. But here are some real life facts that I carefully gathered over the years before piecing my 383 together.

Accel & LPE shelled out quite a bit of capital to design and market the SuperRam system. This intake design and Camshaft(219/219), provides a substantial leap in performance over the OEM TPI system! With AFR 190's or equivalent flowing heads a S/R 383 with decent exhaust usually produces 425-440Hp ~ 470-490Ft/Lbs at the Flywheel/Flexplate.

{Note: Flowmaster achieved a peak Tq of 390Ft/lbs on their in house Dyno on a 1991, L98 with no accessories, long tube headers and straight 2.5" exhaust pipes.} This equates to about 427Ft/Lbs on a 383 L98 with a slightly larger cam profile. Now add all the accessories and a real exhaust sys with cat(s) and that figure starts diminishing.

If one could produce more Hp/Tq than the SuperRam by just use Hi-flow parts around the OE, TPI Plenum on a 383, the S/R would've never gone past the proto type stage!

Sorry I'm not familure with Joe Raymond, hence I couldn't check his W/page. But, there are race 355 N/A engines out there making 500Ft/Lbs, but with short tunnel ram intakes and HUGE cams. Due to the fundament design of tuned resonant intakes (TPI), they are limited to compatible and conservative timing events. Exceeding these valve train limits not only nulls out the performance gains associated with the OE GM TPI, it ruins drivability and idle stability due to pressure wave reversion in the intake!

I just checked the AFR master catalog; it states the 195cc are "available for 1987-98 engines with center bolt valve covers & 2 center intake bolts at 72 degrees angle". "No special parts are required". Although, I've read posts that said the OE and aftermarket Hi-Flow TPI Intakes were smaller in runner size than the 195's. This mismatch would require surgery on the intake manifold to correct. Who knows, maybe I'm smoking crack, but I seem to remember talking to AFR techs around 1998 about this, and they confirmed it?

While I generally agree Chinese metallurgy can be scary, Eagle products are made with vacuum degassed certified 4340 alloy, which is X-ray, sonic tested & magnafluxed, 100% CNC’ed and heat treated. Not to mention a >700Hp rating for the SBC rods. Although if you are just wanting to be patriotic, that ok with me!

As for a Cam, I talked with every tuner shop out there about my application. Each one had different idea on what Cam would be best! My recommendations are, if using a S/R then the 219, if using the OE style TPI, I would recommend a 212/218, 112-114 LSA, with as much lift as possible. 112 LSA = more mid-range Tq, 114LSA = cleaner emissions, smoother idle.

NanoBrain AKA RU4L98

 

Hey H rocks! 500 ft lbs is a goal alright. I think you'll need a good (read expensive) converter to get it. Nothing like some good torque multiplication in your converter to get the numbers up :)

Rods- Just like your name- go with the H-beam. Heavier- yes. Stronger- yes. Able to run more aggressive high lift/small base circle cams later- hell yes! I've got the Lunati Street Race I beams and I wish I had gone with the heavier duty H beams. Would have had more clearance on my .609 lift cam as well if I had gone with the H-beams.

Intake- Weight advantage goes to the Mini Ram weighing in at about 20 lbs. The Super Ram is close to 38 by my calculations. Also the MR is more friendly to high revs like a road racer. Not to mention it takes hours less to install and remove should a problem occur. Also the price off the SR just went up again! The advantage definitely goes to the Mini Ram in my book. Of course if you were adventurous you could do the LT1 intake conversion to make it work for a L98. That would net you a Mini ram clone for about $500 plus the swap of the fuel rails to the lt1 style. definitely cheaper than a Mini Ram and rails no matter how you look at it. You can definitely get 350 RWHP out of a LT1 without much work so I know a ported LT1 will do a little more.

Cam- go big as long as it passes smog. CC-305 is a fun, smog passing, selection. I'd definitely go bigger than the LPE 219/219. It's old tech and better cams are available.

Heads- HP is limited by airflow in the heads and intake. I wouldn't use any heads under the 200cc runner size. 210's are nice and make good power when ported. A 210 head is still very streetable and still impressive enough for a dual purpose car. All out racing I'd recommend 215-225 cc heads. To make the power you want (500 hp is a good figure) you need a real air flow of 265 or more cfm intake (not some inflated "make-the-sale" crap). It's not too easy to get that from small port heads. Also the SR pretty much peters out at that level of airflow.

Don't neglect your exhaust. Don't fall into the 1 5/8 trap! My hooker 1 3/4 actually fit better than my LPE 1 5/8's did. Half price and half the weight for the hookers. No BS! You definitely need at least a 2.5 inch mandrel system to get the good flow going.

I hope you get what you're after!

Cory

 

I think H rocks would have a 6 speed in his car as he is a road racer.

You might want to take a look at doug rippies DRM 300 for the L-98. they mention a few parts, not all, they claim 400hp 490 TQ. Does not say what intake they use etc... Could call them up and ask about it.

A heads up on the heads, the 195's use a felpro 1205 intake gasket, I picked some 1205's to look at it on my 190 heads (they use a 1204 gasket). The super ram intake base from accel did not have enough material on the top of the ports to get a good seal on the top of the 1205 gasket.

This could be fixed by welding aluminum to the top of the ports, then have it milled down...
Then again, some guys said they had no trouble matching up the 195 heads.



[Modified by bill mcdonald, 11:25 AM 2/19/2002]

 

i'm not sure i see how you can get 500ftlbs out of a TPI intake, i cant agree with that, with an SR or MR definitely but not on a TPI.

 

Hey thanks for all the info. I've been out of town a couple of days, so it was great to come back to more food for thought.

As far as the cam, I think I've settled on one from Mike at MORE Performance. He has a custom grind that's .222/.230 .509"in/.528ex (1.5's), 112 lsa. Competitively priced.

I agree that the LT runner is not the ideal way to go. I may have a line on a SR that was ported to AFR 195 heads. Brain, I don't recall stating that an LTR intake would out power the SR. But the TQ #'s are very impressive.

Joe's website is here on the Forum. Look for "joe90". Sure looks close to 400hp and 500#/ft. of TQ to me!

Chris, I have a ZF, .373 gears, and 1 3/4" Supercomps.

Keep it coming! :yesnod:

 

Callies has just come out with a dragonslayer line of 4340 rods. Check http://www.flatlanderacing.com
Competiton products sells Howards stroker clearanced rods, call at 920-233-2023 catalog show price of $499.95/set 700HP range, 4340, bronze bushed

 

H-rocks, I just found Joe90's w/page and that 355 looks amazingly good on the Dyno!!!:eek: I’d thought a cam profile that big on a 355 with a TPI would cause idle/drivability issues, maybe with a lot-O-tweaking and some luck?

Anyway to reiterate, Joe90’s combo used L98, CNC Inc. D-port heads, which flowed a scant 218CFM. Small Intake runner size promotes charge velocity, which produces greater low/mid range Tq. If you wanted to copy his combo and save some $$$, Scoggin Dickey (www.sdpc2000.com) list new “ported L98 aluminum Corvette Heads” for $1049.95/pr, they flow 220In/161ex CFM. This is near identical to the $1600 CNC Inc. heads!

I must admit I’m rather shocked that this combo is producing 471.12Ft/Lbs, and even more that he got almost 116mph on the ¼!

That’s what Beach Bum and others with the S/R 383’s are pulling! If Joe90’s 355 is fun on the street too, I’d say he’s got the Golden combo, hell maybe you should think about a 355 instead, even more so if you’ve got an MAF. And I’m not being sarcastic about this either; I’ve collectively dumped $7k into my S/R 383, and it’s not going to be that much faster than Joe90’s rig!:mad


NanoBrain AKA RU4L98

 

Any old way you look at it with good heads you will see appoximately 1hp per cubic inch.Do the math.385-350
The 383 will give some more midrange pull out of some of the slower turns.Think 5.7 rod as well.Local dyno tests show only around 10 hp gain with 6.0 rod all else being equal on 6500 rpm small block .TPI motors don't rev high enough to justify 6.0 rod
Good Mini Ram motor is different story.
My 2cents about it.Certainly others will differ in opinion.

 

Ok, I was just looking at the AFR site to get a feel for what the "competition package" flow chart looked like. They start out at 135/110 @ .200" lift, and go to 280/200 @.550". (CFM @28" H2O) So with this in mind, and knowing that it's going to be used on road courses, (think wide torque curve) what would you guys recommend? Listen to this grind spec..........233/240 @ .050".576" in (1.6) and .558" ex. Wadda you guys think?!

 

There are many "road courses? Nationwide.Not one set up will work best for all.What tracks are you going to race at?
What is the LSA of the cam and what rod lenght?
Is the cam a Hyd Roller ?
What trans, gears, ex?

It all matters when information about road racing is asked.Even the track.For instance a killer car @ Hallet will get murdered @Willow Springs with out changes.

 

mountain, I agree with your "one size fits all.- - NOT!" analogy. But being that I will not have the luxury to change motors, cams etc. from track to track. So as I mentioned, I need a broad TQ curve that will pull off of low speed corners, yet allow me to rev to ~6,000. I showed some of the combination above, but I need to give you the rest of the story...The car is a '90 6 speed, with a .373 gear. I mostly run tracks like Mid-Ohio & Nelson, with occasional events at the Glen and even Waterford. So the range of gearing and suspension setup should ideally be tuneable, but the reality is that because I'm not Mario's protoge, I don't have the budget for it. (plus, I'm just a weekend track hoe at any kind of DE) I can and do make some minor suspension and shock adjustments at the track to adapt the car as best I can for the type of track. After a couple of sessions, I usually get it pretty well dialled in to the point that I am in the top couple of percent. But simply stated, I generally run tracks that reward great torque coming off corners, big brakes and a thoughtful suspension setup. So, your next questions relate to components...6" rods, hyd. roller, ~112 LSA. The cam is what I'm really trying to nail down. The recommendations are all over the map. That's why I'm soliciting input...

 

I know what you mean about cam recommendations!Can vary greatly!Briefly my 2 cents.No flames meant to others.Just how I feel .Then off to Kruse auction!
I would want ultimate reliability first and formost go solid lifter flat tappet cam.6k is getting pretty high for a hydraulic roller time after time.
A 5.7 rod would benefit you out of the corners and realisticly a TPI motors power is said and done In the mid 5k range unless running Mini Ram.I don't know why people insist on running a 6.0 rod in a 5k rpm motor?

All is not lost though if you have already bought the rods.Proper cam will help compensate for it.I am not going to recommend a cam but will recommend calling Jay Adams@ Comp Cams.He is a TPI nut!Really knows how those motors react to cams.Bet he recommends a 112LSA and mid to high 230's@.050 in a flat tappet solid lifter cam which will equal aproximately mid to high 220's@.050 in a hydraulic.With alot of advance ground into it.
Ultradyne would be another for a recommendation for cams.
Formato for computer work.

Man you really have something going for you though with that 6spd and rear gear!I really enjoyed Road Racing back when.Ran Endurance in WERA series(Motorcycle)Back then tire compounds were so hard they sparked in turns!I have fell off bike on Friday and slid till Sunday he he!I won the 1984 Soul Brothers Nationals in Tulsa Ok(M/C Drag Event) on a Road Racer w/o a wheely bar.Yoshimura motor made 3rd gear wheelies tough to deal with.Short shifting 1,2, gear with wheel in air.

Good luck and let us know what you wind up getting.Most of all,have fun with it!
Edited to ad,Formato might be the one for a cam recommendation.He knows what has been used before and what power was made and where in RPM range.He might be your best bet!





[Modified by mountainmotor, 8:47 AM 2/23/2002]