Modified GTR vs. Modified ZR1 who would win?
10-18-2010, 08:43 PM
#82
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GT-R being overhyped? Perhaps. Don't you think it's quite a statement that a ~4000 lb car with 4 seats, a trunk, all year round usability, and all the techno-gadgets performs the way it does? It's a perfect all-around car, IMO, that does a lot of things well. ZO6/ZR1 are driver's, performance only cars. In that sense, I guess the GT-R is overhyped.
10-18-2010, 08:57 PM
#83
Race Director
What up Alex? Thanks for the kind words. Wanted to check this place out. I have a sweet spot for the C6. GT-R being overhyped? Perhaps. Don't you think it's quite a statement that a ~4000 lb car with 4 seats, a trunk, all year round usability, and all the techno-gadgets performs the way it does? It's a perfect all-around car, IMO, that does a lot of things well. ZO6/ZR1 are driver's, performance only cars. In that sense, I guess the GT-R is overhyped.
GT-R being overhyped? Perhaps. Don't you think it's quite a statement that a ~4000 lb car with 4 seats, a trunk, all year round usability, and all the techno-gadgets performs the way it does? It's a perfect all-around car, IMO, that does a lot of things well. ZO6/ZR1 are driver's, performance only cars. In that sense, I guess the GT-R is overhyped.-Alex
10-18-2010, 09:13 PM
#84
Team Owner
Something no one is mentioning here with the cars, is the Z06 also gets far better gas mileage than the GT-R. So if you plan on doing a lot of driving, the Z06 will end up being considerably cheaper to drive.
10-18-2010, 09:19 PM
#85
Le Mans Master
I'm a newbie here and a member of SF. I just wanted to address this because it can be confusing. Engines produce torque. HP is a way to translate twisting force to work done over time, which is meaningful for us to determine acceleration. This is due to the time factor, by definition of power. ET calculators work on the principle of HP, not torque, although one can be obtained from the other by a conversion factor.
You can't treat hp and torque as two separate entities that an engine produces, like your statement suggests. The torque value means nothing until rpm is introduced. Coincidentally, it's these two variables that define power. So to restate what you said; torque is what makes your car move and continue to move. It's the torque at a particular engine speed (definition of power) that determines how fast you are going to move. This is why small-displacement motors with low torque and high rpm's can accelerate as fast large-displacement motors with high torque and low rpms. The translated torque at rpm (definition of power) is the same. Obviously, I'm not introducing gearing in the equation since I'm trying to keep it simple.
When you are racing, particularly in the straight-line, high torque at low rpms gives you a disadvantage since you are spending the majority of your time at high rpms. The only advantage comes at the initial hit. After that it's about sustaining the highest average power throughout a run. This is where revs come into play. An increase in revs, depending on your setup, will result an increase in power. More power = faster times.
In the real world, it's about who can sustain the highest average power while being able to hook. The GT-R's advantage is having AWD, a double-clutch gearbox, and a very low coefficient of drag. The gearbox is the biggest reason why the car is amazing. It is seamless in that there is no turbo pressure drop between shifts. It's very similar to an auto, except it doesn't have a power robbing torque converter. Disadvantages are of course it's weight.
The ZR1 is lightweight, but what makes it great is also the reason why it has a disadvantage. Every shift takes time and interrupts power delivery. The car is rear-wheel drive and has a large displacement motor, which inhibits traction as power is increased. All this can be remedied by throwing in an auto and proper tires, but then it wouldn't be a ZR1. We've yet to see 1000 whp out of a ZR1, but the GT-R reliably does so already. The beautiful thing about the GT-R is that you don't have to compromise much to benefit from mods. Although the ZR1 has the potential to make a ton of power, if you can't hook, it's useless. Just my $0.02.
You can't treat hp and torque as two separate entities that an engine produces, like your statement suggests. The torque value means nothing until rpm is introduced. Coincidentally, it's these two variables that define power. So to restate what you said; torque is what makes your car move and continue to move. It's the torque at a particular engine speed (definition of power) that determines how fast you are going to move. This is why small-displacement motors with low torque and high rpm's can accelerate as fast large-displacement motors with high torque and low rpms. The translated torque at rpm (definition of power) is the same. Obviously, I'm not introducing gearing in the equation since I'm trying to keep it simple.
When you are racing, particularly in the straight-line, high torque at low rpms gives you a disadvantage since you are spending the majority of your time at high rpms. The only advantage comes at the initial hit. After that it's about sustaining the highest average power throughout a run. This is where revs come into play. An increase in revs, depending on your setup, will result an increase in power. More power = faster times.
In the real world, it's about who can sustain the highest average power while being able to hook. The GT-R's advantage is having AWD, a double-clutch gearbox, and a very low coefficient of drag. The gearbox is the biggest reason why the car is amazing. It is seamless in that there is no turbo pressure drop between shifts. It's very similar to an auto, except it doesn't have a power robbing torque converter. Disadvantages are of course it's weight.
The ZR1 is lightweight, but what makes it great is also the reason why it has a disadvantage. Every shift takes time and interrupts power delivery. The car is rear-wheel drive and has a large displacement motor, which inhibits traction as power is increased. All this can be remedied by throwing in an auto and proper tires, but then it wouldn't be a ZR1. We've yet to see 1000 whp out of a ZR1, but the GT-R reliably does so already. The beautiful thing about the GT-R is that you don't have to compromise much to benefit from mods. Although the ZR1 has the potential to make a ton of power, if you can't hook, it's useless. Just my $0.02.
I know the science of going fast, but still , dont know everything, as anyone who thinks they do are just plain ignorent, cant feed the fanboys any more fuel or things to google.
But yes I am very aware of what you said, but that is off topic(as I myself have gone off topic to expose certain fanboy, google happy people on here, who have never been on a track.) to the OP question again the answer to the OP is ZR1
Also welcome to the corvette forum, it doesnt matter if you are a newbe, if you come on here are state good info.
Last edited by NytmereZ; 10-18-2010 at 09:36 PM.
10-18-2010, 09:24 PM
#86
Le Mans Master
The point I'm trying to advocate is that there is no reason to look at the torque. If you want an engine that produces 1000hp a@ 8,500rpm you will need 617ft/lbs of torque. The misunderstanding is that you are thinking that I'm saying you will never need torque at all. This is not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that you can throw out your torque numbers, they are unimportant. Now for the car to make X amount of horsepower it will need Y amount of torque at Z rpm. So you will need torque to make horsepower. However the torque, as a number, is useless to brag about. It is useless to say "Oh yeah, well my car makes 400ft/lbs of torque. Now if that same person was to say "My car makes 400ft/lbs of torque at 8000rpm" its a different story. But thats only because that means he's making 609RWHP. Which is definitely a force to be reckoned with. So in the end I think we were arguing totally different points (atleast I hope I've caught the problem here). I'm saying Torque as a number means nothing but rather that horsepower is what you should pay attention to because that is what makes your car go down the track. You're saying that torque is necessary for an engine to make good horsepower. So in the end we're both correct. Obviously the better your torque, the better your horsepower. But high torque is nothing without a good amount of RPMs.
(3 ft/lb of torque @ 2 RPM) / 5252 = .0011424 HP
(1 ft/lb of torque @ 8 RPM) /5252 = .0015232 hp
(3 ft/lb of torque @ 2 RPM) / 5252 = .0011424 HP
(1 ft/lb of torque @ 8 RPM) /5252 = .0015232 hp
like you even have a clue as to one word he said
10-18-2010, 09:40 PM
#88
Le Mans Master
The Z06 traps a higher speed and wins every roll race if both cars are stock.
Something no one is mentioning here with the cars, is the Z06 also gets far better gas mileage than the GT-R. So if you plan on doing a lot of driving, the Z06 will end up being considerably cheaper to drive.
Something no one is mentioning here with the cars, is the Z06 also gets far better gas mileage than the GT-R. So if you plan on doing a lot of driving, the Z06 will end up being considerably cheaper to drive.
just answer the OP's question, which would be ZR1, no contest.
10-18-2010, 09:45 PM
#89
Le Mans Master
Power to weight and of course the 60ft is the biggest factors in running good 1/4 times.
10-18-2010, 09:48 PM
#90
Team Owner
We're not even talking about fun driving either. I'll take either Z over that boat anchor GT-R with only two pedals any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
10-18-2010, 10:53 PM
#91
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The Z06 traps a higher speed and wins every roll race if both cars are stock.
Something no one is mentioning here with the cars, is the Z06 also gets far better gas mileage than the GT-R. So if you plan on doing a lot of driving, the Z06 will end up being considerably cheaper to drive.
Something no one is mentioning here with the cars, is the Z06 also gets far better gas mileage than the GT-R. So if you plan on doing a lot of driving, the Z06 will end up being considerably cheaper to drive.
10-18-2010, 11:04 PM
#92
Team Owner
And as mighty as the GT-R seems to be to some people, none ever want to race me. Don't want to have their egos bruised I think.
10-18-2010, 11:45 PM
#93
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Hey JustinStrife
To bad your not in Chicago or I'm not on the west coast. I'd race that SC C5 you have there in a NY minute!
A roll or dig your call.....win or loose my ego doesn't get bruised to easily.
Actually my car will be at the Texas Mile Oct 22-24 you should bring your car down and we could line them up. They have roll racing in the afternoon there. Just some fun on the track.
10-18-2010, 11:57 PM
#94
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Dude you live in San Diego. It doesn't snow like it does in NY. Attitudes like yours is why a lot of people don't like the Corvette guys around here. You think that your car is invincible to imports because you have a blower on a stock LS1. Please....
10-18-2010, 11:58 PM
#95
Team Owner
Hey JustinStrife
To bad your not in Chicago or I'm not on the west coast. I'd race that SC C5 you have there in a NY minute!
A roll or dig your call.....win or loose my ego doesn't get bruised to easily.
Actually my car will be at the Texas Mile Oct 22-24 you should bring your car down and we could line them up. They have roll racing in the afternoon there. Just some fun on the track.
To bad your not in Chicago or I'm not on the west coast. I'd race that SC C5 you have there in a NY minute!
A roll or dig your call.....win or loose my ego doesn't get bruised to easily.
Actually my car will be at the Texas Mile Oct 22-24 you should bring your car down and we could line them up. They have roll racing in the afternoon there. Just some fun on the track.
There isn't any in San Diego that I'm aware of that are more than 'look at me' driven. 
I'm still running the original longblock, clutch, transmission, and rear end with 129k on everything.
Can't race from a dig as I'd blow something with DR's. She's my daily driver after all and has been for 3 1/2 years. 
Still gets me 30mpg on the freeway driving 75-80 on 91 octane.
10-18-2010, 11:59 PM
#96
Team Owner
10-19-2010, 12:08 AM
#97
Team Owner
The import guys have made the car scene a living hell out here in Southern California. An absolute hell. I sold mine as I couldn't deal with the police anymore harassing me. San Diego actually has a police task force setup to crack down on modified cars(primarily imports) because of import owners being overall jack-azzes on the street.
10-19-2010, 01:33 AM
#98
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The import guys have made the car scene a living hell out here in Southern California. An absolute hell. I sold mine as I couldn't deal with the police anymore harassing me. San Diego actually has a police task force setup to crack down on modified cars(primarily imports) because of import owners being overall jack-azzes on the street.
As far as the import cars that you've owned those are pretty difficult platforms to modify. I personally wouldn't waste my any of them other than the SR20 S13. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
10-19-2010, 01:36 PM
#99
Race Director
-Alex
10-19-2010, 10:31 PM
#100
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What guestimate would you think is the percentage of imports that are modified or stock that can shut down a blown LS1? Seriously, take his car and drive it in any state and how many of the imports would lose to it? I'm guessing at least 90%. I raced a modded S2000 last night in my stock LS1 and humiliated it. Cool dudes and all but, that car just couldn't take it. Now couple that with a C5 that is almost double the stock power and still lighter than the most powerful imports. So then we have the titans of the import world as far as power production, the Supra and the GTR. How many of those are actually on the road to race? Like next to none? Furthermore, how many of those are modded to run on race fuel? Even less. So the ACTUAL likelyhood of him loosing to an IMPORT is very very very slim.
-Alex
-Alex