Not sure how much of a "trick" its as much as common sense....lol. As I posted before.... especially as you stated "stock" comparison...a convertor is a performance upgrade and a clutch is not. Also...are we have a hot lap competition or is it first one to the stripe.??.....if we are have a hot lap comp then Im in a prius !! lmao .....
But I can understand where your coming from....if you cant beat them down the track then lets compare hot laps...

 

Pre----"2.97 first with 4.10s and a 26" tall tire isn't lacking in gear in my books, almost identical to 2.66 first with 4.56 and a 26" tire in a heavier f-body."

Again... more gear with a manual car is always a plus guaranteed. And the only penalty for more rollout is a little added weight. But that is not an option with a 4.10 being the "best" ratio available.

My simple understanding....the longer you can keep the motor in the "sweet spot" the faster down the track. And the rollout should not be the limiting factor in a launch !! Fyi, the only reason all the C5/6 guys run 26" is because of the lack of gear.....but unless it is a perfect launch you stand the possibility of blowing the tires off. That is why guys struggle between bogging and blowing the tires off.

So explain how more gear would not be quicker ??

Or can "run" some calculators to show the shift recovery per ratio with maximum rollout.

 

Only problem with that statement it doesn't hold true
Internal Engine Modifications LS2
10.157 @ 129.43 - Stanger383 - 05 A4 - CAI, conv, 3.42, H&C, hdr, ptb, Z06muff, tune, & more, DR - (6370)
10.163 @ 131.08 - Dennis50NJ - 05 A4 Z51 - CAI, cb, conv, ewp, pfast, 3.73, H&C, hdr, ptb, tune, & more, DR - (6493)
10.585 @ 131.43 - DSP300C - 07 M6 – al/fw, CAI, cb, ewp, pfast, 4.10, H&C, hdr, 100maf, tune, DR - (4330)
10.665 @ 133.29 - Braciole - 07 M6 - CAI, cb, dp, ewp, pfast, 4.10, hdr, H&C, tune, DR - (4296)

Even BONE STOCK
Showroom Stock LS2 (2005 -2007)
12.215 @ 115.45 - LS1LT1 - 06 A6 - (1278)
12.235 @ 115.58 - 06C6FVR - 06 M6 Z51 - (333)
12.290 @ 114.29 - Proney - 07 M6 - (4500)
12.314 @ 114.82 - CYA Vett - 05 M6 F55 - (675)
12.422 @ 113.90 - DrRichie - 05 M6 Z51
12.499 @ 114.90 - Jschindler - 05 M6 Z51

 

Its simple logic, of-course lower gears are quicker most F bodys Run 488 513, But the C6 aluminum housing independent rear is weak, 513 smaller teeth, I would love to run 513 28" tire but we got to run what works and doesn't blow

 

Im at a 4th party on my phone....so I will look into this ^^^when I get home.....

 

Make sure you didnt have to many drinks when you do

 

NO. Would, if I could, but I can't.
I was going to the Challenge heavy expecting the Nitrous to shoot so I was in about 3,200. Too much gas to run N/A, if I have less gas, take the seat and the bottles out etc. ... at rental time and the scales weren't turned on. I have done quite a few mods to lighten since then - the Bogarts and Strange brakes are two examples adding up to quite a few lbs.

yessir, another AMR built N/A car - ready to spray

 

That pic is from Aronson Motorsports in Missouri, is that who you use? I didn't even think you ran a slipper clutch...

A converter is a performance mod more so than a clutch? Please explain...

I realize the larger tire is easier to hook up on the launch, but it isn't beneficial down the track. You do realize that if you have an F-body with 4.56 gears and 26" tall tire it's almost identical shift points and recovery rpms are the same vs a 5.13 gear and 28" tire? The more power you make the less gear usually needed...

So you're saying your car weighs ~ the same as RobZs? I only ask for discussion's sake.

 

Is that on kill?

 

yes weighed at a rental, remember I weight 293, its a full 1SB loaded, i run gto spares up front light battery 11lbs rear c5 rims, c5 brakes front rear swaybar removed and end links front only, low fuel, both seats out and race seat in, it has nav and all other interior., added weight full cell pump trans cooler wideband msd dual rpm switch bottle brackets nitrous kit, bottle removed, wires and wires to move battery to back hatch cubby I havnt ran it on kill yet thats why im confident to run 9s

 

 

I'm sure it will then, appreciate you sharing the info

 

No. I don't recall ever actually seeing the weight of my of car under 3,200

 

------------------EDIT--------------------------

Forgot to mention.........most modern converters can multiply TQ of the engine by three to four times (so if it flashes @ peak TQ its adding a lot of TQ...and what does TQ make ??...lol) and then lockup when the engine speed catches the converter speed, essentially having near zero slippage/loss. So how is a aftermarket clutch going to compete with that without gears ??


...................

 

Thanks the more you talk the more you make my case, exactly So how is it going to compete with that converter and gears

 

Lol.....I wont deny it.....a properly sized converter is awesome piece. But its not the quickest way down the track !!!...... But I will say......the auto route is "easier" way to go.

 

So, YOU are probably the reason when you say that robz is gonna drop the 346 record further, when your the dog in the fight! The problem here is that you are on the bigger cube LS-2 N/A list. That's almost like me going after the spot with my 383 Ci. Cubes ARE EVERYTHING when comparing.

Competition is good to have. I hope we all go faster this Fall. I also wish there was another low ten second N/A 346 around so that we could push one another to go faster. Hopefully, an automatic because I am still a believer that a stick is faster and with a good driver, is quicker. Maybe not as consistent. The C5 Z06 is inherently a few hundred lbs lighter then a auto cars. I feel rob could have gone faster back then with the AMR 346 car but nobody was even close when chasing him for the spot. Was the Harrop on there when it went 9's?

 

We all can go faster and yes when your near or at the top it takes some motivation to go faster. I'm positive Rob could go faster, I'm not in any dog fight except LS2, and really not even that, i was very happy with number 2, when dpc300 was #1 and now I'm # 2 again with stanger383 #1

 

No it was a fast and not a solid roller either.

That was my point even with the poorer shift extension down track with an auto a stock motor has a power band that I believe will still support a better ET no matter how much rearend gear or trans gears you give the stick. It hasn't been done in the f-bodys that I know of which aren't gear limited or do you think everyone just takes the easy way out and goes auto? Non of the fastest f-body 6-speeds are running C5z/gto trans gears either, why do you think that is if more gear is better? I mean the more gear the less slipping of the clutch till full engagement and a faster 60'. It doesn't have as good of shift extension is the only draw back, though still better than the auto. Hopefully somebody reading this is motivated lol

My favorite racing to watch is tire limited classes as it evens the playing field and makes things more interesting as it's all in the details. Prostock is a racecar, so not a fair comparison as I thought we were talking street cars not 10k rpm NA machines that need the gear to be in their powerband and aren't manually operated manuals. You saying the manual needs a gear change to keep up with the torque multiplication from the converter is exactly why the torque converter is superior. Even if you take the C6 comparison with an A4 as it has less overall gearing and forward gears than an A6, so the manual has the advantage I don't believe you can make up for it unless you severely handicap the auto which isn't really fair.
Power to weight has always been the name of the game, max average power that is put down is the winner and I understand how hp is derived from torque. That is why the autos can dyno less and still outrun a manual. Still waiting on the PM of your timeslip or let me know when you come to Texas as I'd like to meet up and maybe you can teach me a thing or two. I like to think I'm an above average man pedal operator, but have no problem humbly admitting my car would be faster with an auto.

 

COLOR CODED FOR YOUR PLEASURE...

OK, there is a lot to respond to, I'll give it my best shot.
Lets get something clear right away. (Speaking of C5's) Without a gear change most converter cars have an advantage(but when both cars are serious(like Robz) the manual will win). Thats because the converter is a performance upgrade and a conventional clutch is not. When someone can raise their stall point to peak TQ and the converter is multiplying it a at least 3 time I call that a performance advantage. Since we have already covered what RWTQ does, please explain how a aftermarket clutch provides more RWTQ ?? (please do not say by letting you leave at a higher rpm without failing, remember we are/were comparing these to a cam only car) Most of the cars you want to compare are nothing more than stock manuals with a aftermarket clutch and a 4.10 gear. Hardly a serious maunal setup IMO.................so you have said an aftermarket converter is no more of a performance up grade than an aftermarket conventional clutch ?? Would love to hear this !!.... BTW, you stated this in post 57


1) Have you ever seen a tach view of a properly geared car go down the track ?? His entire tach swing is less than 900rpm (dependent on engine combo). Here is a vid of a car properly geared, skip to the 2 minute mark and watch the tach.

RYAN ONDREJKO : Pro Stock - In Car Indy Round 1 - YouTube

This can be achieved in any car if done properly. The RWTQ made with all that gear along with the array of clutch choices and.....very low parasitic loss makes it an unfair advantage....I guarantee.... Just ask all the rule organizers I posted at the bottom....

And after all of this ^^^^, why do you think the quickest N/A manual C5 runs a 25" tire....could it be hes trying to achieve more potential gear ?? He's gear limited by the constraints of the C5 IRS options and the Tremec options as well. Do you think if he could run more gear he would ?? Would he run more rollout as to not be on the edge of bogging/blowing them off ??

IMO, there are several things that "limit" a manual car to realize it full potential (in a car that is able). Complexity, time in learning the setup, cost, crew, turn around time, skill/ability, commitment to something like this.....ect. Why do all of this when you can throw a auto in it a be within 2-3tenth of what it would do with a sorted out manual car. Because its difficult and everyone wants the "easy button"...lol. We all know a sorted manual car would kick the chit out of an auto....Again ask these guys vvvvv.




And you say there is no manual penalty....take a look

Here are the three competitive LSX classes.........
LSX Drag Radial.....
TRANSMISSION--Limited to only OEM style automatic transmissions (aftermarket SFI cases permitted)Any torque converter allowed. Lock-up type permitted.
LSX All Motor....
TRANSMISSION--Any OEM style automatic transmission permitted. Any non-planetary style manual transmission permitted*Manual transmission–weight penalty of 200lbs. Added to base weights. Any torque converter allowed. Lock-up type permitted.Torque converters not permitted with manual transmissions. Clutch-activated automatic transmissions (re: Clutch-flite) are prohibited.
LSX Real Street
MANUAL TRANSMISSION--Only T56 and TR6060 manual transmissions permitted. Clutchless models prohibited. Any gear change must occur from direct action by the driver. Pneumatic,electric, hydraulic, etc. shifters prohibited. All transmissions must use either a). As produced, as supplied (unmodified) OEM gears and/or gear sets for transmission used). Gears and/or gear sets may not be utilized from other models. Transmission used is required to have a gear ratio in all gears as offered by the transmission used. Welding or grafting part of one countershaft to part of another counter shaft will not be accepted. (So what their basically saying is a stock (no faceplating) T-56/6060 has to compete an unlimited modified auto, and you say there is no penalty...LMAO)

Here is X275 rules.....
TRANSMISSION--Any factory automatic transmission allowed. OEM factory transmission allowed. Bruno-Lenco transmissions are prohibited. Aftermarket clutchless manual transmissions and clutch assisted manuals are permitted on naturally aspirated combinations only. Electric shifters and air shifters are permitted.(How many N/A combos have a chance in hell at an X275 event, again you say no penalty)

You might need to tell these ^^^^ guys that there is zero performance gain over an auto....

LOL....how can you even say that...LOL....your gunna bust on a guy who shifts every gear but only uses the clutch to launch. But most of the classes that prohibit manuals allow air shifters for autos !! Your unreal !!...


I will be in McKinney on the 27th, but just sorting a few bugs out....


And the part that is really confusing is, you pretty much admit in a "race car" setting the manual is faster(your references to Pro Stock and such). But wont admit when a guy wants to mod his manual on the same level an a tricked out auto that the manual has the advantage.

So I guess the comparison I want answered is.....any model..ummm, make it a bone stock C6ZO6. You get unlimited budget/rules to do any auto and the same for a manual. Who wins and why ?? Or are you saying in a strictly DD situation ??

.