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I didn't read all the posts but it's clear there have been major improvements made in car audio DSP's, and there are plenty of options to choose from.
I'll add a couple caveats. In the pro world cost does actually correlate directly to performance and sound quality. Not all DSP's sound the same even if they appear to be doing identical tasks.
One of the defining characteristics of equalization is how the individual filters combine with one another. What you see on the screen isn't always what you get with 'lesser quality' gear. Is there a smooth transition from one filter to the next?
A common feature available in higher end DSP's is the ability to create asymmetrical crossover points. For example; high-pass your lows at 24Db per octave at 100Hz and low-pass your subs at 12Db per octave at 80Hz. You're taking some of the strain off of your low-mids (protecting them from destructive bass) and letting the subs 'fill in' a bit. This same concept applies at the crossover between your mids and tweeters in a tri-amp'd set up.
Another important feature is being able to time-align the individual drivers (woofers, mids, tweeters, etc) This is critical in a 4-way, quad amp'd setup for example. The goal is to have all the frequencies arriving at your ears at the same time. Time-aligning the 'mains' to a sub-woofer(s) is rarely perfect but there is always a 'best compromise'.
Manipulating these parameters to optimize a speaker systems output is defined by the manufacturer in pro systems and things like crossovers and alignment are 'locked down'. They've done the testing and there's no point in second guessing them. These settings are 'fixed' in the amplifier/DSP's they require you to purchase with their speaker system.
Accurately tuning the system to the room (or car) is where the EQ comes into play and using a good analyzer (SMAART is my preferred software) with a high quality (perfectly flat response) test mic and a high quality USB mic pre-amp is essential for best results.
SMAART lets you use the music itself as the test signal (imperative in a live concert setting). It compares the signal coming from the source (head unit in a car) with the signal that the mic is picking up and displays the difference (transfer function) allowing you to add EQ to precisely compensate for what the room/car is doing to the signal.
Of course you can always just trust your ears and tweak on your system until it sounds good to you. The way we used to do it before they invented RTA's.
I didn't read all the posts but it's clear there have been major improvements made in car audio DSP's, and there are plenty of options to choose from.
I'll add a couple caveats. In the pro world cost does actually correlate directly to performance and sound quality. Not all DSP's sound the same even if they appear to be doing identical tasks.
One of the defining characteristics of equalization is how the individual filters combine with one another. What you see on the screen isn't always what you get with 'lesser quality' gear. Is there a smooth transition from one filter to the next?
A common feature available in higher end DSP's is the ability to create asymmetrical crossover points. For example; high-pass your lows at 24Db per octave at 100Hz and low-pass your subs at 12Db per octave at 80Hz. You're taking some of the strain off of your low-mids (protecting them from destructive bass) and letting the subs 'fill in' a bit. This same concept applies at the crossover between your mids and tweeters in a tri-amp'd set up.
Another important feature is being able to time-align the individual drivers (woofers, mids, tweeters, etc) This is critical in a 4-way, quad amp'd setup for example. The goal is to have all the frequencies arriving at your ears at the same time. Time-aligning the 'mains' to a sub-woofer(s) is rarely perfect but there is always a 'best compromise'.
Manipulating these parameters to optimize a speaker systems output is defined by the manufacturer in pro systems and things like crossovers and alignment are 'locked down'. They've done the testing and there's no point in second guessing them. These settings are 'fixed' in the amplifier/DSP's they require you to purchase with their speaker system.
Accurately tuning the system to the room (or car) is where the EQ comes into play and using a good analyzer (SMAART is my preferred software) with a high quality (perfectly flat response) test mic and a high quality USB mic pre-amp is essential for best results.
SMAART lets you use the music itself as the test signal (imperative in a live concert setting). It compares the signal coming from the source (head unit in a car) with the signal that the mic is picking up and displays the difference (transfer function) allowing you to add EQ to precisely compensate for what the room/car is doing to the signal.
Of course you can always just trust your ears and tweak on your system until it sounds good to you. The way we used to do it before they invented RTA's.
Good stuff. That's what I would like to hear more about....what gear everyone is using to measure, what types of software/apps, microphones, the like in order to actually measure everything and then utilize that to tune your DSP.
So I never did post the pro's & con's of the VXi like I said I would, so here it goes...
JL Audio VXi (TuN) DSP Review
Pro's: Navigation of software
- The main screens are very easy to navigate between. Single mouse click gets you there.
- The full page of information on each screen. You can adjust the entire system setup on just two screens.
- The main tuning screen is all encompassing. Every adjustment can be made (TA, X-overs, polarity, EQ, Q's, gains, everything...no hunting or pulling up different tabs) on one screen.
Packaging/Ease of install
- The amp is SUPER SMALL and the DSP is internal. No additional wiring or power supply is needed.
- If you can install an amp, you’re good.
Presets
- You can program almost an infinite amount of tunes, and have 6 active at any given time.
- The switching speed between presets happens instantly. No delays. This makes demo'ing and explaining sound functions much easier to a novice.
- The color assignment feature is really nice. It helps you remember what preset you're on, and which is next. Awesome when using groups of tunes.
Usefulness
- It very user friendly and it gives the user FULL control of additional amplifiers. So you can daisy chain every amp (called slaving) to the VXi and the DSP will control their output as well.
- The additions make it super friendly to use. The DRC-205 (external amp control) is really versatile with 2 independently turning ***** with a 3rd "push-down" the cycles through presets. And the wireless bluetooth dongle makes wireless connections possible for the guys that have their amps buried in enclosures. (I’ve never got a chance to use this since I just plug the cord in directly)
- It is about as sophisticated as any DSP available including the highest end units. There isn't any parameter you can't control or adjust. The grouping features are super handy and allow you to make large or system wide changes instantly.
- Crossover options are endless. Every crossover type is available for use, and they’re asymmetric. Meaning you can have a Butterworth on the hi-pass, and a Linkwitz on the low-pass, and the slopes are independently adjustable…on EVERY driver.
- Grouping functions are great. You can pair your tweeters, for instance, and tune them both as a pair, at the same time. Definitely useful when tuning systems with multiple subs.
Con's: Price
- The amp itself is not cheap. While it's not a $3K handmade from solid gold audiophile amp, at almost $1500 a pop, they're not cheap.
- The fact that it's not an external DSP and you have to plan to use it. If you already have a good selection of amps, this will make most people steer clear because why re-do a whole functioning system...why not just add one of the many other external DSP's?
- The fact that this price is across the board, so say you want to run matching amps (some folks are picky like that, I am too)... You're having to spend VXi money for another DSP equipped amp where the DSP becomes a useless feature.
- No non-DSP VXi amps. Kind of going off the above bullet. I want to run a MATCHING amp...but why spend that much just to have matching amps? Not practical.
- Supporting gear is pretty expensive as well. It was almost $400 for the DRC-205 and the BT dongle. With everything, you're almost at $2K bucks…and that doesn’t include tuning time.
Can be overwhelming/Complexity
- After over a year using it, we still find little hidden gems that we didn’t know were there. For instance, the **** control has 3 settings. You can control gain, groups, or volume with it. This whole time it was on the default “gain” setting. This is why we had trouble getting it to sound right at high volume with the ****…because we were turning up the GAIN, not the volume. Lesson learned.
- Because the main screen has so much information and so many functions on it, it’s easy to get lost in it, or forget what you needed to do. This adds tuning time.
- Even a professional audio shop would likely spend a few hours having to learn the software and its many functions which could add to the expense of the system.
Lack of EQ
- I know, shouldn’t be a thing right? Well, you get 10 bands of EQ per channel. So on my 800/8, that’s 80 bands of EQ. That sounds like a lot, I know. But here’s why it’s not .If you have a cheaper set of drivers that don’t play very flat out of the box, and they’re not broken in, you can quickly run out of EQ bands trying to get them flat. This happened when I ran my Focal 6.5s (when new). We managed to get them flat, but we used every one of the 10 bands doing it. Some of the other DSPs, RF 360.3 for instance, offer up to 31 bands of EQ per channel. While I don’t think I would EVER need that many bands…it would be nice to have them available if and when I did need them.
Not being able to label EQ’s
- So this is one of the biggest gripes. EQ’s 1-8 are labeled just that. EQ 1-8. You can’t change the names. What this means is that you have to always have a reference up of which driver is on which EQ. You could think that your driver’s side tweeter is EQ1 and begin changing stuff, and not seeing anything happen on the RTA. Then you realize that man…my driver tweet is EQ2. Now you have to remember what you changed and undo it. It’s a really big PITA. Why not just let me name or associate an EQ with a driver. It would make life so much easier and tuning MUCH faster.
So I believe I captured everything that has been good and bad with this DSP. Overall, I still think it’s a GREAT DSP, with tons of adjust-ability and options galore. And if they could fix even one of the cons I listed, I think it would be a contender for the best DSP available. But that’s a stretch and my bias is clearly showing…but it’s not without reason. I’ve been around several DSPs (certainly not with the hours and hours I have with VXi) and they all have their pros/cons as well. And of those, I truly believe that I would pick VXi every time. It’s just a damn good software.
Last edited by Pb82 Ronin; Jun 5, 2020 at 12:56 PM.
Three way Morel fronts with the tweets in the pillars, 4 channel Alpine PDX-F6 amp behind the passenger seat. When I have tried to tune the system using the eq in my head unit, I can't bring the high frequencies down enough to get a flat response so I can tune to ear from there. I set the passive crossovers to take as much out of the tweeters as possible when I installed them, anticipating that this might be an issue. It also seems like some fine tuning for the phase of the sub would help, and a hardware **** to adjust sub level would as well.
The more I read the more I want to go active to make sure that the fronts are all time aligned. I just hate the idea of basically redoing the entire system. I damaged my hearing in one ear (not too bad, but measurable) a couple years ago and I wonder if I will even be able to tell the difference.
I want to get the amp out from behind the seats because it just takes up too much room anyway, so I suppose I might as well just go all in. Right now I've got the sub amp mounted to the box so I can just remove the box and sub if I track the car in the future. The top does not fit in with the sub box as well as it was supposed to, though, so I'm thinking of building a box. I just can't think of how this is all going to go together.
It doesn't seem like there are any really small DSPs I could just sneak in between the amp and head unit. I guess I should just replace the amp with an LC 6.1200.
It seems ridiculous that we're still using the DAC in the head unit and running analog outs to the "D"SP. Adding a better DAC than comes in most head units seems like a no brainer.
If packaging is an issue...get an amp with integral DSP. There are several to choose from. Just make sure you get one with enough channels to go active.
Three way Morel fronts with the tweets in the pillars, 4 channel Alpine PDX-F6 amp behind the passenger seat. When I have tried to tune the system using the eq in my head unit, I can't bring the high frequencies down enough to get a flat response so I can tune to ear from there. I set the passive crossovers to take as much out of the tweeters as possible when I installed them, anticipating that this might be an issue. It also seems like some fine tuning for the phase of the sub would help, and a hardware **** to adjust sub level would as well.
The more I read the more I want to go active to make sure that the fronts are all time aligned. I just hate the idea of basically redoing the entire system. I damaged my hearing in one ear (not too bad, but measurable) a couple years ago and I wonder if I will even be able to tell the difference.
I want to get the amp out from behind the seats because it just takes up too much room anyway, so I suppose I might as well just go all in. Right now I've got the sub amp mounted to the box so I can just remove the box and sub if I track the car in the future. The top does not fit in with the sub box as well as it was supposed to, though, so I'm thinking of building a box. I just can't think of how this is all going to go together.
It doesn't seem like there are any really small DSPs I could just sneak in between the amp and head unit. I guess I should just replace the amp with an LC 6.1200.
It seems ridiculous that we're still using the DAC in the head unit and running analog outs to the "D"SP. Adding a better DAC than comes in most head units seems like a no brainer.
Endus, I'm curious as to what head unit you are running?
Also, have you tried tuning using an RTA and pink noise? They have some apps available that can help you do this. Audio Control has an app with an RTA using your phone as the mic. Also, I used the app Signal Generator to play pink noise. The only issue is it is difficult to get both apps to work at the same time from the same device. So if you can use separate devices for each, it will go more smoothly.
Here is a helpful article about tuning with pink noise if anyone is interested.
Thank you sir. Always value your input on all things audio.
Sony XAV-AX100. I liked and have recommended this unit, but there are some things about it that are frustrating me lately.
I have run pink noise through it and used an RTA on my phone. I need to try it again, but that's what was telling me I was getting too much from the tweeters. I have the highs dropped all the way to the bottom on the AX100's eq and the music sounds decent to my ears, but I think there's still a ways to go.
I think I read that article before but I will check it out again and re-run the pink noise test for sure.
Thank you sir. Always value your input on all things audio.
Sony XAV-AX100. I liked and have recommended this unit, but there are some things about it that are frustrating me lately.
I have run pink noise through it and used an RTA on my phone. I need to try it again, but that's what was telling me I was getting too much from the tweeters. I have the highs dropped all the way to the bottom on the AX100's eq and the music sounds decent to my ears, but I think there's still a ways to go.
I think I read that article before but I will check it out again and re-run the pink noise test for sure.
That article has been posted a few times, so most likely you have seen it before. Also, not all pink noise is the same. I find that tuning using the pink noise from the Signal Generator app was more to my liking. Also, make sure any of the sound enhancement features, if any, on your head unit are turned off. I find that many try to manipulate the sound and only end up causing issues with the eq curve.
That article has been posted a few times, so most likely you have seen it before. Also, not all pink noise is the same. I find that tuning using the pink noise from the Signal Generator app was more to my liking. Also, make sure any of the sound enhancement features, if any, on your head unit are turned off. I find that many try to manipulate the sound and only end up causing issues with the eq curve.
Will try that app! I definitely tried a pretty limited set of tools when I initially tried to tune it.
Pretty careful about head unit configuration so I don't think that's it, but I will probably reset everything and go through it again. I am thinking I may even redo the gain on the amps just to make sure it is 100% dialed in.
Lesson learned.
