Great idea.

Here's what I received from the owner today after I told him what I could piece together about the car:

"That was some investigative work. I am sorry I misled you about the car being #'s matching. If I would have known, I never would have listed the car as such. If you are still interested in the car I will work with you. Let me know what you think is a fair price."

So things are looking up. I did know that his wife bought the car for him as a birthday present a few years ago, and I even spoke to the dealer where she bought it. They're a consignment shop, and the owner said that they list the cars with the description they are given from the consigner, and no do not verify any of the information...so if the guy who was consigning it said it was numbers matching, they sold it that way, whether it was or not. I’m guessing his wife wouldn’t know how to verify, or it just wasn’t an issue for her.

I met this seller in person last week, he seems like a straight up guy, I don't think he was intentionally trying to mislead anyone.

So...18,500 seem like a good deal?

 

The VIN tag itself is verified for authenticity and that's obviously what my post referred to. Please read up on NCRS rules and definitions before spouting off garbage.

Restamping a block is not counterfeiting, it is restoring.- it's in black and white on the web site.

"NCRS does not consider the restoration or replacement of components as counterfeit as long as the intent is to restore the car to its former or original state as it left the factory."

If the car left the factory as an L-48 and a replacement block is restamped as an L-48 that's not counterfeit. If it's restamped as an LT-1 that counterfeit.

Not to continue the hijack but it appears that you had your car judged without knowing the rules or understanding what was going on during the process. I'm sure your local chapter offers judging schools that you could take advantage of.

 

emm... not so. better confer with a few other judges before you spout.
If you stamp it with the VIN and you don't have proof that it's correct, you might as well stamp it LT1.

 

Comparably speaking, it's probably about right for that car given the documentation on what was spent on it.

 

Also, what is "decking"?

And can the pad be re-ground and stamped without removing the block from the car?

 

If you wish to insist- the famous 'Last '67' was presented for judging with a non-original block that had been restamped. No 'declaration' was made prior to judging (there is no such thing) and the car took a Top Flight.

Please show me or refer me to any rules that prove your point- in other words put up or shu.........

No further posts from me on this topic until this is done.

Decking is a machining process that removes material from the block surface where the heads are mounted. This process also removes the factory ID stampings .

The block surface would also need to be rebroached to replicate the original machining marks prior to restamping- a very difficult and expensive process with no guaranteed results. Putting judging aside, you'd still have a restamped NOM car and have to exercise moral judgment on the subject at time of sale.

 

thank goodness for that..

Owners Ethical Responsibility: Any individual, this can be owner, owner/restorer, restorer & owner, or restorer, presenting a vehicle for judging that is determined to contain counterfeit identifiers such as VIN Plate, Trim Tag, Altered Casting Numbers, or Altered Casting Dates will be suspended from further participation in the judging activities of NCRS and the Vehicle Identification Number will be permanently recorded in the award database. The suspension will be reviewed by the National Judging Chairman and the NCRS President who will determine if suspension is justified. The individual(s) involved will be notified of the final decision in writing.


OP does not know the original dates. Any dates restamped would be incorrect or misleading. To stamp a 72 engine would require the suffix codes etc. There is no history identifying it for example as a CKX or other Vette Engine. Could be a Camaro engine. Stamping it without proof is deceptive. Therefore counterfeit.

See ya.

 

Thanks for providing the rules that apparently have gotten you mislead and confused.

The key is 'altered casting dates and numbers'. That's not the point being debated. If he uses the block he's got now, neither has been altered- they are the original numbers and dates. There is no counterfeit. Show me something relevant on stamp pads

 

"such as" is a key phrase. Does not say "limited to".
It's OK Mike.. everyone knows that my position is correct.
You can let it go.

 

As suggested before, please go to some judging schools. In the short term, go post your specific question on the NCRS board instead of assuming and guessing. I'll be watching for it.

 

Yep.. great chatting with you. Don't think any school is necessary to know what's right & what's wrong. You're just miffed that I shat in your hat. Enjoy the rest of the weekend

 

And we were doing so well.


OK, the seller agreed to 18,500. Good deal?

 

I give up. Obviously you'll continue believing what you want and are not interested in improving your knowledge. That's your loss. This is none of my concern except that you're spreading misinformation here and I suppose elsewhere.

For those wondering about the subject- altering a casting date or number would only be done in the interests of modifying something into a form that it never was previously. There's no legitimate excuse to do this. As such, the word 'restore' cannot apply in this case, the word 'counterfeit' would. Decked stamp pads are very common as many owners know and was done for a legitimate reason. Putting the numbers and broaching marks back onto a pad that were previously machined off is 'restoration' as defined in the NCRS rules. That's the difference.

It could be argued that the block in question, although correct and unaltered in appearance including casting numbers and dates, originally came from grannie's station wagon, but there is no method of determining this (or an original block) once the block is decked. This sort of forensics and authentication is not presently part of judging.

If what our friend maintains was true, any car with stamp pad irregularities would have be considered 'counterfeit' and disqualified. Compare this to what the rules actually state which is a 25 point deduct for either VIN or machine code, or a 38 point deduct for pad surface. To judge otherwise without credible methods would penalize owners who indeed have their original blocks.

BTW- please don't interpret the above to mean that 'NCRS accepts restamps'. They don't. If it's detected, it's a deduct as per above.

People may not agree with the rules and I'm not saying that I agree with all of them either, but they are what they are.

 

So anyway, it looks like I'll be the new owner of a nicely restored '72 within the next couple of days.

THanks everyone for your help and comments. At 18 grand, for all the work that's been done to this car, I dont' think I can go wrong- stamp or not. I'll try to hunt down the owner who did the work and see if I can find the real story- at least for my own knowledge.

I'll post an update when it arrives...

Oh- and already got a set of nice OEM correct valve covers coming from ebay for $120. I'm getting there.

 

Stamped steel orange ones? $120 is kinda pricey.................

 

Hi rx,
You asked about 'decking'.
Decking was a machining process done to the block by a GIANT machine as part of the machining process before the engine could be built.
It left 'telltale' signs in the surface of the block that meets the heads. Since the stamp pad is part of that surface, those 'telltale' signs are on it too. The 'telltale' is seen as lines in the surface, and they are running parallel with the length of the block.
You can see them in the picture I posted... if you look carefully. How the surface looks varies greatly since the machine wasn't 'sharpened' for each engine. They were 'decked' in batches. So the pad surface of the first block of a batch looks different than the surface of the last block of a batch. The surface can be duplicated with varying degrees of success.
Not all members of the NCRS fight in public. Sorry, Scott/Mike.
Regards,
Alan

If you'd like to learn about the originality of the car you buy, I suggest you buy the 'NCRS Technical Information Manual and Judging Guide' for the year of the car you buy. You might also want the 'Judging Reference Manual' which explains in detail what Scott and Mike are talking about.
I had my 71 Flight Judged last Sunday and it was a very pleasant experience. I've been a judge since 1989, but never had my car judged so it was pretty nerve racking.

 

No 'sorry' required Alan, you're right of course.

It just pixxes me off to no end when I see misleading and downright incorrect info being posted. Many people come to these boards looking for guidance on judging or NCRS info and can easily go away with the wrong info. As you well know this in turn acts as fodder for the bashers

Look how often the NCRS accepts BC/CC myth comes up.....................

 

uhmmm.. YOU jumped in an felt that YOU had to comment. And then you want to act like you are the judge of judges. You're way off base.
You didn't understand the original comment & interpreted things so you could start a fire and then act like the fireman. You like to be in control which is why you wanted to be a judge. Just stop already.. you're acting childish. All the advice I provided was dead on accurate. Just knock it off already.

 

Congratulations !! Glad the constructive part of the advice helped. Sorry about the side banter. There will always be control freaks in the hobby that like to try and correct everyone. Need to squint and go blah blah blah sometimes.

You're gonna love the car!

 

You guys crack me up. CF is never dull at least.

Alan- thanks for the info.

Mike- these are the ones (although the deal is not final so if these aren't the ones I should be buying, lemme know)-