Hi. I am looking at buying a low mileage, 1970 LS5 convertible here in the NY area. The car is in great condition, and everything is date coded within NCRS specs.

The engine pad stamp looks a little strange to me, but some people have told me that 1970 was a strange year, after the strike, and that this was a unique year, in that many blocks were stamped strange.

The car comes with the original Protecto Plate, Window Sticker, and Tank Sticker. The block was cast on April 8, 1970, and was Stamped on April 28th, 1970. The build date of the car is May 21, 1970. It is a 454/390 Automatic car, with PS, PB, AM/FM, and a 2.73 rear. (Corrected my previously posted Build Date of May 22, 1970)

The Protecto Plate has the same Pad Stamp Date and Suffix Code of :
T0428CGW, as well as the Transmission and Rear End Codes.

The car looks like the real deal, especially since it is just an Automatic transmission, and not a 4 speed.

Please have a look at the stamped pad, and let me know your opinions, as to it being real or not.

Thank you in advance,

Steve



http://s919.photobucket.com/user/ste...416d7.png.html

 

The last two characters (G and W) of the engine plant stamp appear to have been struck or (re-struck) after the original gang stamp. When, who and why are the questions. Somebody got aggressive with cleaning the pad...as evidenced by the cross-wise scratches in the same area. Other than that...if the vehicle assembly plant VIN derivative stamp matches the A-pillar VIN and all the paperwork...then it looks okay to me.

PS - I am certainly no expert, but I did stay in an RV park in Tampa last night.

 

Hi Steve,
If you look carefully at the surface of the pad you can see the marks left by the grinder that was used on the end of the identification stamp, (I don't think the marks are from 'cleaning the pad'), where the broadcast code was originally stamped and then re-stamped.
You can faintly see the original struck C under the re-struck C.
"Grind Outs" were certainly common.
I guess the question would be WHEN this was done.
The upside down 8 is interesting too, but not too surprising.
If you're satisfied with the VIN derivative stamp doesn't this have to be the original block for this car? Do the window sticker and tank sheet indicate this was a th400 car originally? Are THEY real?
Regards,
Alan

There is quite a bit of information available about "grind outs".

 

Very possibly a factory grindout. If you're paying serious original engine money for this car, best do some additional legwork.

Contact Al Grenning.

 

Hi Alan,

Thank you for your reply. All of the supporting documentation looks real. Also have all 3 previous owners information, names, addresses, phone #s, etc.

The Proetcto Plate matches the stamp exactly, as well as the rear end and transmission. I will post photos here as well. The tank sticker is just over 8 inches in height, and 5 1/2 inches wide. Is this normal size for a 1970? I thought my 1967 tank sticker was larger, when I had that car 25 years ago.

Thanks,

Steve

 

Window Sticker ?


Tank Sticker

 

I agree. I think they ground & restamped the usage code at the engine plant. All other letters & numbers look factory typical to me.

 

If I'm not mistaken, that's Zora Duntov's fignerprint on that Protect-O-Plate!!

 

Hi Steve,
Nice Pictures!
The tank sheet on my 71 is 6 3/8" wide and 8 3/8" high. I haven't see enough tank sheets to make a judgement on the one in your picture. Note the pencil 498 is 500 less than the VIN 998.... just as was often the case with the plant's 'job number' system. Mine has 89 on the sheet for a 589 vin car.
I don't think the picture of the window sticker is a window sticker... in fact it says it isn't on the document. I think it's a piece of ordering information. The window sticker from my 71 is 5 5/8" wide and 9 1/8" high.
I really don't feel capable of making documentation determinations.
It looks to me though that if this car and it's documentation isn't real someone has gone through a lot of work to create it.
Here's a couple of pictures for comparison.
Regards,
Alan

 

Looks legit to me,first one i have seen like that,but i am sure there are others.That 70 has some great factory docs.
Any pics of the car you can post ?

 

IIRC, when the car was scheduled for assembly, plant personnel sent a facsimile of what would become the window sticker to the ordering dealer, listing all of the options and color codes the car would be built with, but without prices. The anticipated prices were included on the tear off section shown in the pic. Dealers usually kept the tear off and could give the remaining section to the person who had ordered the car.

In this particular case, it looks like the original dealer gave the tear off to the new owner (Michael Fair). Nice.

 

You should post the pic of the pad on the NCRS board.

 

My bad,i see you put it there already.

 

I would like to thank all of the Forum members here who have contributed to my thread. I did post in the NCRS Forum as well, just to gather as many opinions as possible, since I had never seen anything like this before.

The car drives great, looks great, and I believe the paperwork is all original. This 1970, 454 automatic, is priced just about $6000 more than a 350/300hp in the same condition, without any paperwork.

After I take delivery of the car, I will post many more photos of the car, and engine compartment.

Thanks again to all of you, and have a great week,

Steve

 

Here's a picture of the block stamp on my engine if it helps you.

 

I will say it again.. that stamp is just another excuse. it is a car with an excuse..

'I could be factory' would not make me pay original engine money for that car. I would definitely pay more for the correctly numbered and dated parts and the fact it is a big block. plus I would pay more for the doc of course.

6K over a non documented similar condition small block? yes I probably would.. this car without the stamp excuse would be 12K+ over instead of 6K over..

 

By the way.. my car was built a day earlier and has a VIN over 10000 with a trim tag of E21 (May21).
This car is under 10000 with the OP stating it is May22.

Do lower numbered VINs go down the line a day later?

 

I was looking at a car with a similar situation.

Fully documented but the stamp pad was in question. So called factory grind out. No way to prove it was. I just am not comfortable with cars with excuses so I put this car on the shelf for now and looking elsewhere.

Good luck to the op whatever he decides.

 

I'd take this car over one with a 'perfect' pad any day. Same price.

 

Hmmm,
Lots of "thoughts" on this Thread, all is warranted.

1. Yes, it has happened in the MOPAR world, as "joewill" has presented the question: "do lower number VINs go down the line a day later"

Recently, a very rare Hemi Charger controversey has begun to "LOOM" and the "higher number VIN" (last dated VIN) was actually released for sale earlier than a "lower number VIN"
"The quest for the LAST hemi Charger"
Long story on how and why...BUT these 71 HEMI Chargers are truly the "UBER rare" breed and it is a long story.

Now, as joewill and Alan have pointed out: "questionable" and "concerns"

If you were talknig about a L-88, L-89 or an early "Fuelie" the real EXPERTS would bring up the same questions Alan and joewill have pointed out.

I personally think it is a re-stamp.
I "hung around" a famous Ohio Corvette dealer in the mid 80's and HE told me then to be "wary" of notorious individuals who can and do re-stamps. He said even he had been fooled!
He told me "they" will even turn the "8" upside down, an "S" backwards or a number crooked to make it look like the "tech" on the line made an honest mistake!
I met a machine shop owner in 1994, Riverside CA who told me he can turn a set of Pontiac Heads into a rare set by adding the raised lettering on the 2 center ports. He was PROUD of this ability!

To sum it up, it all depends on what you want.

1. Should "we" be punished because our Vette or Musclecar had a blown engine during a 1980s "street shoot-out" ?
NO

BUT: If "WE" deceive someone on a sale to re-coup more money by fraudlent means stating: "Original Engine" then YES, we should be scrutinized.