Numbers Matching?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,189
Likes: 111
From: Tolland CT
Wow, quite a thread!
IMO if the partial serial number on the stamp pad matches the one on the windshield pillar, the 'numbers match'. Simple, we're not making any absolute claims of originality or making any other statements about the car.
If a buyer is interested in 'originality', the matching numbers is the first step for authentication, much more research would need to be done.
IMO if the partial serial number on the stamp pad matches the one on the windshield pillar, the 'numbers match'. Simple, we're not making any absolute claims of originality or making any other statements about the car.
If a buyer is interested in 'originality', the matching numbers is the first step for authentication, much more research would need to be done.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,274
Likes: 6
From: Corvetteville USA
Wow, quite a thread!
IMO if the partial serial number on the stamp pad matches the one on the windshield pillar, the 'numbers match'. Simple, we're not making any absolute claims of originality or making any other statements about the car.
If a buyer is interested in 'originality', the matching numbers is the first step for authentication, much more research would need to be done.
IMO if the partial serial number on the stamp pad matches the one on the windshield pillar, the 'numbers match'. Simple, we're not making any absolute claims of originality or making any other statements about the car.
If a buyer is interested in 'originality', the matching numbers is the first step for authentication, much more research would need to be done.
eg. alternator in 1971 454 non/ac car: 1100543
starter in 1971 454 manual car: 1108400
Those are numbers too aren't they?
If they aren't the correct numbers NO match in my opinion.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,487
Likes: 83
From: Titusville Florida
Wow, quite a thread!
IMO if the partial serial number on the stamp pad matches the one on the windshield pillar, the 'numbers match'. Simple, we're not making any absolute claims of originality or making any other statements about the car.
If a buyer is interested in 'originality', the matching numbers is the first step for authentication, much more research would need to be done.
IMO if the partial serial number on the stamp pad matches the one on the windshield pillar, the 'numbers match'. Simple, we're not making any absolute claims of originality or making any other statements about the car.
If a buyer is interested in 'originality', the matching numbers is the first step for authentication, much more research would need to be done.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,487
Likes: 83
From: Titusville Florida
Yes but can you not go out and find those parts with those numbers? You cannot however go out and find a block or trans with those numbers (unless you go the crook route that is, which I'm not willing to do)...
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,189
Likes: 111
From: Tolland CT
I see stamp pad numbers matching the numbers on the pillar to be minimal requirement for 'numbers matching'. Yes we could carry this a lot further. This minimal requirement seems to be the definition most people accept, the block having a matching serial number being the root. Seems to be the way the market has evolved. I'd say if a buyer is interested in 'matching numbers', sees an ad for a car with 'matching numbers', it's the buyers responsibility to verify the car matches his/her definition of 'matching numbers'.
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Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,274
Likes: 6
From: Corvetteville USA
I see stamp pad numbers matching the numbers on the pillar to be minimal requirement for 'numbers matching'. Yes we could carry this a lot further. This minimal requirement seems to be the definition most people accept, the block having a matching serial number being the root. Seems to be the way the market has evolved. I'd say if a buyer is interested in 'matching numbers', sees an ad for a car with 'matching numbers', it's the buyers responsibility to verify the car matches his/her definition of 'matching numbers'.
I don't think it would be fraud to advertise a car for sale that is original if you had put in some period correct parts that do not identify the vin on them. No more harm than just changing the belts, tires, wipers, oil filter etc.....
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,487
Likes: 83
From: Titusville Florida
Both are fair responses especially about minimal requirement. NOW, my thinking is if you do indeed find appropriate date coded ORIGINAL parts so can still call your car original. There is no DNA proof that those parts found did or did not come with the car in question.
I don't think it would be fraud to advertise a car for sale that is original if you had put in some period correct parts that do not identify the vin on them. No more harm than just changing the belts, tires, wipers, oil filter etc.....
I don't think it would be fraud to advertise a car for sale that is original if you had put in some period correct parts that do not identify the vin on them. No more harm than just changing the belts, tires, wipers, oil filter etc.....
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,274
Likes: 6
From: Corvetteville USA
Yes I agree, but the numbers matching is original to the car. By your way of thinking, with the analogy above, if you get a new block and stamp it with the vin then it's a numbers matching car, it may not have come with the car originally but hey it has the correct number on it just like the replacement period correct part in your analogy above... You could even get the correct period block and have it stamped with the vin, does that make it numbers, yeah if you're a crook!
But I am speaking on originality. If the parts ARE from 1971 and are original items and are correct to the build date of the car in question then I would say you can advertise as original if you put them in your car. I am not considering restamps.
Sir, that will be 8 dollars please. Gratuities are welcome!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,487
Likes: 83
From: Titusville Florida
The same way if you get restamped parts. All numbers matching, yes.
But I am speaking on originality. If the parts ARE from 1971 and are original items and are correct to the build date of the car in question then I would say you can advertise as original if you put them in your car. I am not considering restamps.
Sir, that will be 8 dollars please. Gratuities are welcome!
But I am speaking on originality. If the parts ARE from 1971 and are original items and are correct to the build date of the car in question then I would say you can advertise as original if you put them in your car. I am not considering restamps.
Sir, that will be 8 dollars please. Gratuities are welcome!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,189
Likes: 111
From: Tolland CT
Yes I agree, but the numbers matching is original to the car. By your way of thinking, with the analogy above, if you get a new block and stamp it with the vin then it's a numbers matching car, it may not have come with the car originally but hey it has the correct number on it just like the replacement period correct part in your analogy above... You could even get the correct period block and have it stamped with the vin, does that make it numbers, yeah if you're a crook!
Restamps done to misrepresent the car have been done many times forcing people to look deeper to authenticate, look at broach marks, etc. It seems to me 'numbers matching' used to be a pretty good measure of 'originality' in the early days when nobody bothered to restamp. It's unfortunate restampers have watered down this measure of originality.
As I said earlier, if a buyer wants 'originality', the matching numbers is the first requirement. Verifying the pad is authentic would follow. Then, depending on what the buyer's defiintion of matching numbers is, further inspection would be necessary.
Last edited by BBCorv70; May 22, 2014 at 10:25 AM.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,274
Likes: 6
From: Corvetteville USA
I agree with most of your summary other than the "crook" part. I'd say the seller is a crook if they're trying to pass off the restamp as 'original' to the car. I can't think of many reasons to restamp unless the intent is to misrepresent the car but I've seen some for sale where the owner was up front about the restamp.
Restamps done to misrepresent the car have been done many times forcing people to look deeper to authenticate, look at broach marks, etc. It seems to me 'numbers matching' used to be a pretty good measure of 'originality' in the early days when nobody bothered to restamp. It's unfortunate restampers have watered down this measure of originality.
As I said earlier, is a buyer wants 'originality', the matching numbers is the first requirement. Verifying the pad is authentic would follow. Then, depending on what the buyer's defiintion of matching numbers is, further inspection would be necessary.
Restamps done to misrepresent the car have been done many times forcing people to look deeper to authenticate, look at broach marks, etc. It seems to me 'numbers matching' used to be a pretty good measure of 'originality' in the early days when nobody bothered to restamp. It's unfortunate restampers have watered down this measure of originality.
As I said earlier, is a buyer wants 'originality', the matching numbers is the first requirement. Verifying the pad is authentic would follow. Then, depending on what the buyer's defiintion of matching numbers is, further inspection would be necessary.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1584598787-post1.html
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,317
Likes: 291
From: Ocala FL
No one replied, was the matching numbers '67 I posted original or not?
Here are some more matching numbers. And any company selling them as matching numbers would be backed in court, as they are matching numbers.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-a...pad-photo.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1568458858-post10.html
The Infamous Fonawanda Big Block
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1554189436-post1.html
Here are some more matching numbers. And any company selling them as matching numbers would be backed in court, as they are matching numbers.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-a...pad-photo.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1568458858-post10.html
The Infamous Fonawanda Big Block
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1554189436-post1.html
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,274
Likes: 6
From: Corvetteville USA
No one replied, was the matching numbers '67 I posted original or not?
Here are some more matching numbers. And any company selling them as matching numbers would be backed in court, as they are matching numbers.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-a...pad-photo.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1568458858-post10.html
The Infamous Fonawanda Big Block
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1554189436-post1.html
Here are some more matching numbers. And any company selling them as matching numbers would be backed in court, as they are matching numbers.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-a...pad-photo.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1568458858-post10.html
The Infamous Fonawanda Big Block
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1554189436-post1.html
Pro
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 721
Likes: 105
From: hernando fl
I don't understand why the " line in the sand " is a restamped engine block. its perfectly ok to buy reproduced "date code correct " windshields and door glass , its perfectly ok to scour ebay and flea markets for " date code correct" anything that has a date code.........but all hell breaks loose when its an engine block. to me its all same ....it either came off the assembly line with it or it didn't.
with some of the definitions I have read , I could get a burned to the ground car , use nothing but the vin tag , engine block , and trans case , replace every single nut bolt and part on the car with "date code correct"parts from a catalog or swap meets and I would have a "numbers matching" car.
to me its just another abused term that means nothing
with some of the definitions I have read , I could get a burned to the ground car , use nothing but the vin tag , engine block , and trans case , replace every single nut bolt and part on the car with "date code correct"parts from a catalog or swap meets and I would have a "numbers matching" car.
to me its just another abused term that means nothing
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
I don't understand why the " line in the sand " is a restamped engine block. its perfectly ok to buy reproduced "date code correct " windshields and door glass , its perfectly ok to scour ebay and flea markets for " date code correct" anything that has a date code.........but all hell breaks loose when its an engine block. to me its all same ....it either came off the assembly line with it or it didn't.
with some of the definitions I have read , I could get a burned to the ground car , use nothing but the vin tag , engine block , and trans case , replace every single nut bolt and part on the car with "date code correct"parts from a catalog or swap meets and I would have a "numbers matching" car.
to me its just another abused term that means nothing
with some of the definitions I have read , I could get a burned to the ground car , use nothing but the vin tag , engine block , and trans case , replace every single nut bolt and part on the car with "date code correct"parts from a catalog or swap meets and I would have a "numbers matching" car.
to me its just another abused term that means nothing
