I think maybe you've drawn your own line in the sand.

To some, passing off any repro as an original is taboo, others think otherwise and apparently sleep well at night.

 

I can't believe this is still going on.



One very real issue is that you may be honest and tell owner 2 that the engine is a restamp. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Or if he dies, his wife will not have a clue.

Onwer 3 has what he thinks is original. Owner 4 definitely thinks it is original.

Owner 5 gets it checked out against the photo library of stamp pads, the broach marks don't jive with the ones common for those dates, and it is deemed a restamp. It used to be really bad in Bloomington or NCRS as it was then noted as a counterfeit.

And you think a salvage title is bad?

However, many think that can't happen. Reproduction parts can always be detected as reproduction, they say. Yet you would be surprised at the number who swear their '63 coupe has a remarkably aged original interior, without realizing they are looking at a TMCS interior from 1977 when it was restored the first time. The issue is the reproduction interior from 1977 is now 37 years old, so it looks like an "old" interior so it "must' be original.

It has already happened many, many times.


The only reason any of this is an issue is because morons misunderstood why original engine cars were valuable, and so they pay far too much for an original engine. They don't understand the value of a car is what can you do with it, how much fun does it give you, how much will someone else pay for it when you sell, and so on. It isn't just about the engine. The famous 12 mile 1967 L88 DOES NOT HAVE ITS ORIGINAL ENGINE!

It wasn't pedigree, since they are all just an assembly line part, not a Picasso or Rembrandt.

It was because before restorations, an original engine implied a car well cared for, not driven hard or raced (thus hadn't blown up the engine), and was a good car to buy. This was true of ANY car back in the '60s and '70s.

This was the true value of a numbers matching or original engine Corvette in the '70s. It was a car you could safely assume someone hadn't beaten the ever lovin' crap out of.



Once cars started being fully restored, not just repainted and such, but every part taken apart and rebuild and restored, all this became meaningless.

If done fully and correctly, a restored car IS a new car. It can and should be expected to run just like a brand new one, even if it is 30 or 40 years old. So whether the car launched from every stop light in town at 4000 rpm, or someone's grandmother drove it only on Sunday afternoons, what happened BEFORE the restoration has no bearing at how the car will run after the restoration.



So stop this stuff already.

Matching numbers are only used by used car salesmen, con artists, those trying to pass off a fake as real, or the dummies who have read some of the Black Book and think they are an expert.

Original engine doesn't mean the engine is original, it means it is the one that originally came in that car. I've seen a lot of original engines with Edelbrock intakes, Holley carbs, better cams, headers, and so on, but it is still the engine block that came in that car. It is not original as in exactly how it came from the factory, because there are wear items. Fuel filters, points, spark plugs, spark plug wires, oil, rings, bearings, and such all wear out, but that doesn't change it from being the engine that originally came in that car. And that is how the hobby views it.

 

It sure is funny how some think they are the definitive authority or last word on the topic of numbers matching and use insults to prove their point.

I sleep just fine at night saying that my motor and trans are both numbers matching

If that offends anyone here I'd suggest that you may have personal issues and may need to talk to someone about it.

 

What does "NOM" mean?

 

Good thing there are a couple nice factory originals out there to see what's what!

Also, why these original cars are becoming so important. Repo parts keep getting better.

 

I sleep very well at night , and if I have insulted anyone that was not my intention. I have what I think is a legitimate point of view , its obvious many do not agree. what I have drawn from all of this is simply that a repop engine stamp adds more value than any other date coded repop part. to me fake is fake and does not have a dollar sign associated with it.
If someone advertised on this forum , an accurate restamp service , many people of this forum would be demanding his head on a stick and the person would be called everything negative one can imagine. that is not the case with other date coded repop ( fake ) parts.
I for one , enjoy a spirited debate and have taken no offense to any comments made here by anyone

 

My comment was not directed at you, I pretty much agree with you on the above statement as well as most, if not all, of what you've said.

I am however offended by someone whom came into this topic but that is their right, even if their very presence offends me

 

The root of the problem, as always, is money. Nobody will pay extra for a car simply because it has a correctly dated coil wire, original or repro. Many will pay whatever it takes to get an original engine car, up to $100K in some rare cases. No different than faking art work or currency, there's always somebody that's ready to pull a fast one and come up with a counterfeit car. Sad but true.

Nobody would object if the local junior college arts program came up with a contest to see who could best copy a masterpiece, but nobody would agree with selling these off as originals.

Restamping engines has the same pitfalls- attempting to pass off a copy as the original.

I've often heard NCRS judging used as justification for rebroaching and restamping an engine, despite the fact that it's worth very few points. I've encouraged these same people to add the word 'restamp' somewhere on the pad. NCRS rules would not a require a deduction for that. Don't know of any takers yet.

 

You have mail.

 

So, has the OP got an answer yet?

 

i think the OP 's computer caught on fire 3 pages ago

 

This has been my understanding of how the stamp pad number became significant.

I agree though I make room for the 'matching numbers' cars which are low mileage, ones which weren't extensively worked on. Especially 'survivors' which by definition must have original parts.

Enjoy

In many cases this may be true.

I've heard this analogy before. It doesn't hold up. A Corvette with a replacement block is a repaired Corvette. A new copy of a Corvette didn't just spring up, this car was manufactured by Chevrolet. If we were talking about an ERA Cobra, that would fit the art analogy since that vehicle wasn't manufactured by who ever produced the original Cobras. It's a new copy much like a copy of a painting. I see the Corvette with a replacement block as being like a painting which had a repair, if you want to go with the painting analogy. We didn't just create a new painting from canvas and paints.


Agree, seems to be a weak argument...

 

Why don't NCRS and Bloomington Gold promote reproduction engines with restamped pads?

Try this on for size

http://articles.mcall.com/1987-06-25...olice-officers

http://articles.philly.com/1987-07-0...s-classic-cars

If you don't know who Dr. M F Dobbins is, he is this guy. Mr. Vette Vues Fact Books.

http://www.ncrs.org/shop/index.php?m...roducts_id=479


Tampering with VINs is a federal crime and a state crime in many states. In some states, if they find a car with an engine number that has been restamped, they can and have taken the car and you just lost out. Just because someone calls it restoration doesn't give them the right to break the law.

And that is why back in the 1970s and early 1980s when NCRS and Bloomington both stressed the importance of the original engine, and so people began reproducing original engines, that NCRS and Bloomington began backing way off and distancing themselves from such statements as no one wanted to go to jail for it. Dr. Dobbins getting arrested sent a shock through the community.



Rant on

Call me stupid, but someone came in here asking for advice, and a couple of guys who really know their sh** answered. And someone had the audacity to question them.

If this is a bit brisk, it is because it annoys the heck out of me when people who don't know get good advice and then turn back and tell the experts they don't know anything.

Rant off

Have a good Memorial Day weekend and remember those who served our country.