When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
When I started searching for a vette , did my due diligence. Didn't have the budget for a numbers matching piece, so I didn't look for one. Looked for a good solid car and found one. Couldn't be happier and hope there will be others in the future. It occurred to me that as these cars escalate in value there are always unscrupulous sellers trying to pass off a junkyard dog as a numbers matching museum piece. Has anyone out there come across this scenario, and how did you spot the fake?
Hi GD,
An interesting question with no easy answer!
I think you're really talking about 2 different things here.
First, the whole 'Numbers Matching' thing and what that means. (You've posted that you're not interested in any of that.) And it seems to mean VERY different things to many different people.
Second, the "junk yard dog" as you called it. I consider this to be a "put together car". A car with maybe a frame from one car, a rear clip from another, a front clip from yet another and the drive train from yet another.
It takes some experience in various years of production to be able to spot a car that's been 'put together'.
Is this what you're referring to? Or ARE you asking about that 'dog' that's been made to look like 'numbers matching' car?
Regards,
Alan
IMHO, those in a position to purchase a museum piece should also be in a position to know what they're looking at and preparing to pay for. Knowledge is power.
I often respond to posts from buyers looking for opinions on authenticity, wether it be paperwork or an engine stamp. This is a fairly common occurrence in this hobby of ours. But there were so many cars made that there are still plenty of legitimate cars out there.
The best way to spot a fake on your own is to study what has been established as real. That can only be done over time. It takes time. I understand 69s fairly well but I'm not nearly as knowledgable on other years because I haven't spent the same amount of time looking at them but some things will translate the same over the various years.
There are plenty of members on here that have vast amounts of knowledge. NCRS members also know a tremendous amout about what original legit cars are supposed to look like so joining them and speaking with them is not a bad idea. They also have a online forum. Many of the members here also post there.
The info is out there and in the posts on this forum. Its the best tool available and entirely up to you to decide how much you want to learn. The best part of it is.....its free.
To answer you question if anyone has come across a fake. That answer would be yes. You don't have to look far. I have seen cars for sale on this forum in the last few months that are completely fake. Bad engine stamps, bad paperwork.
The only way to spot a fake is by comparing it to the real thing and looking for differences. Even that may not catch every fake but its the best place to start. Then if you find something you like and its a big dollar car its best to get verification from people who you know can tell the differences even when the car/stamp/paperwork looks perfect. Some of these people may charge a fee for there service but in the long run its completely worth it. You sometimes have to pay in order to save.
Last edited by ed427vette; Jan 5, 2017 at 01:21 PM.
Before buying my LT-1 I looked at a '70 model being represented as an LT-1 (it was not) . I believe the owner (a guy in his mid-70's who had owned the car 20+ years) had bought the car believing it was a real LT-1. Upon close inspection it was missing key pieces (i.e. TI, single fuel line, etc.).
I don't believe he was trying to be dishonest but simply didn't know what he had. Obviously he didn't know what to look for when he purchased the car.
IMHO, those in a position to purchase a museum piece should also be in a position to know what they're looking at and preparing to pay for. Knowledge is power.
Too true, and all too often ignored.
Originally Posted by 67 L79
I don't believe he was trying to be dishonest but simply didn't know what he had. Obviously he didn't know what to look for when he purchased the car.
This is the case more often than not... The owner simply doesn't know and is passing along a story that he was told long ago.
Hi GD,
An interesting question with no easy answer!
I think you're really talking about 2 different things here.
First, the whole 'Numbers Matching' thing and what that means. (You've posted that you're not interested in any of that.) And it seems to mean VERY different things to many different people.
Second, the "junk yard dog" as you called it. I consider this to be a "put together car". A car with maybe a frame from one car, a rear clip from another, a front clip from yet another and the drive train from yet another.
It takes some experience in various years of production to be able to spot a car that's been 'put together'.
Is this what you're referring to? Or ARE you asking about that 'dog' that's been made to look like 'numbers matching' car?
Regards,
Alan
Alan 71, thank you .There is some good advice here in your response. Key word is experience. This is my first Corvette and I am trying to gain the experience. As for numbers matching, I am very interested, just not ready for it yet, still have a kid in school. I think your definition of the junkyard dog is spot on. I hear several outside barking right now, but none of them trying to be something they are not.
Everything that has been said above is pretty much on target for the most part. Having said that, I think the possibility of a total faked "put together car" is lower on a C3 than on say a C1 or C2. The reason is obvious; there is just not that much money to be made unless you fake a rare C3. By the time you build up a fake that would be convincing, you have dropped a lot of loot. When it comes to the super rare cars, like an L88, it is easy to check on it and anyone willing to drop the huge bucks to buy one would have the resources to do so. (if someone offers you a L88 for 50 grand, call me because I have some nice beach property in Arizona for sale also) As far as adding LT1 badges to a base engine car, it is easy enough to check on if someone wants to.
The idea of "clone cars" is stupid to me, but it seems to be more prevalent with muscle cars, (SS396 Chevelles, Mack 1 Mustangs, Super Bee Mopars, etc.) but they are usually identified as clone cars when they are sold and if not can usually be "outted" by checking the vin. What amazes me though is the money people will pay for a clone car even knowing that it is a fake.
Since "matching numbers" doesn't matter to me, I wouldn't put any thought to buying an overpriced car because of any claim (or reality) that it had "matching numbers". In fact, I can't imagine anyone caring about such a thing unless they were looking for a museum piece that would not be operating on roadways.
Why would anyone wanting a "driver" car care about it having matching numbers????
I understand what a clone or fake car is...a car trying to be something that it original was not. I am glad I am not hung up on that limitation.
But, if someone who buys a 69 base, and loves the configuration, performance or styling of an LT-1 or L88, then I think it is very easy to understand why someone would want a "clone". Its because that person could care less about what GM built, what NCRS says, what the "value" is and what anyone else says, and he just appreciates what an LT-1 or L88 is. He is passionate about the design, and instead of paying ridiculous prices people ask for the real thing, they can easily make it the car GM designed. Its same with 65 or 67 GTO's......try buying a real one compared to buying a 65 or 67 Lemans. One is out of bounds financially the other is not. For me it honors the GTO when you clone a Lemans, and in the end......you get to drive it and own it.....which is way more important that pleasing others and worrying about the value of the car. I don't own my car as an investment, I have more important concerns.
So many times I see people looking at these cars as some kind of financial investment, or wrapped up in technical issues or details, and I just love the car for what it is. There is room for both types, but I am glad my interest is what it is.....seems more rewarding.
Last edited by Shovels and Vettes; Jan 5, 2017 at 06:49 PM.
It is your car and money so you can do anything you want with it. As long as someone is honest about it when they sell, I say go for it.
Clone cars are not for me though but different strokes for different folk.
Originally Posted by iwasmenowhesgone
I understand what a clone or fake car is...a car trying to be something that it original was not. I am glad I am not hung up on that limitation.
But, if someone who buys a 69 base, and loves the configuration, performance or styling of an LT-1 or L88, then I think it is very easy to understand why someone would want a "clone". Its because that person could care less about what GM built, what NCRS says, what the "value" is and what anyone else says, and he just appreciates what an LT-1 or L88 is. He is passionate about the design, and instead of paying ridiculous prices people ask for the real thing, they can easily make it the car GM designed. Its same with 65 or 67 GTO's......try buying a real one compared to buying a 65 or 67 Lemans. One is out of bounds financially the other is not. For me it honors the GTO when you clone a Lemans, and in the end......you get to drive it and own it.....which is way more important that pleasing others and worrying about the value of the car. I don't own my car as an investment, I have more important concerns.
Last edited by crawfish333; Jan 5, 2017 at 06:51 PM.
I often laugh about this idea of originality. Even the finest example I have ever seen on this forum, which is Alan71 car, does not have original paint. Its not the original paint the car came out of factory with. It does not have original gas in the tanks. No disrespect, but point is that originality is really where you draw the line. Reproducing chalk marks on frames and overspray to imitate how it rolled out of the factory is kind of fake too.....! Again, I have all the respect for Alan's talent, but having a Corvette you never drive seems like a real loss. I could never do that. I like driving it too much.
But, you know, everyone likes different things. I just know that my enjoyment of building and owning my car is something that is not determined by NCRS and the amount of money I could sell the car for......its about my love for owning and driving the car I built, and my love for C3 Corvettes. And I do. Its something within my control, and not giving in to NCRS and Kelly Blue Book.
Last edited by Shovels and Vettes; Jan 5, 2017 at 07:23 PM.
That is good for you and I respect that point of view, however, some people have different priorities and different budgets for their hobby. Some of us do not need another fast car or hot rod. For me, I wanted to own the Corvette that was my dream car when I was in high school. I want to make it look and drive like new. This will take time and money but the journey is half of the fun. It will not be a museum piece, but in reality if I wanted to drive aggressively, I would probably drive my C7. I definitely would not want to or need to use either as a DD. I feel much more comfortable driving my F150 in Fort Worth traffic.
So as I said in the other post, different strokes for different folks.
Originally Posted by 7T1vette
Since "matching numbers" doesn't matter to me, I wouldn't put any thought to buying an overpriced car because of any claim (or reality) that it had "matching numbers". In fact, I can't imagine anyone caring about such a thing unless they were looking for a museum piece that would not be operating on roadways.
Why would anyone wanting a "driver" car care about it having matching numbers????
Last edited by crawfish333; Jan 5, 2017 at 08:15 PM.
It is your car and money so you can do anything you want with it. As long as someone is honest about it when they sell, I say go for it.
Clone cars are not for me though but different strokes for different folk.
Barret Jackson and Mecum regularly sell clone cars, but they always are identified as such. They do sell and they do bring good $$$$. Even a Lemans made into a GTO brings decent money.
Ok, think I'll head back to my C4 forums, just dropped in to see whats going on!
Some want to impress and fake out others who don't know.
Some want the car but can't afford the pedigree.
If you buy a real original L88 motor, it will cost big buck. Yet you can build one that runs exactly like it for a few thousand. There are still people that are more interested in the performance and driving them than the pedigree.
Since "matching numbers" doesn't matter to me, I wouldn't put any thought to buying an overpriced car because of any claim (or reality) that it had "matching numbers". In fact, I can't imagine anyone caring about such a thing unless they were looking for a museum piece that would not be operating on roadways.
Why would anyone wanting a "driver" car care about it having matching numbers????
I agree with this.
IMHO, as others have said, it all boils down to what you like and your world view of what you value.
Some like cat and dog cars and will put a 76 rear clip on a 80 with who knows what combinations, check out the rat rods, wow!
Some like to recreate a Corvette exactly, exactly as it left the factory and derive immense pleasure in doing so and rarely even drive it.
And some, like me, enjoy my mostly all original 68 roadster, which happily has a 454 block, 70 4 speed and 66 rear end. So the drive train is really cats and dogs, but unless you start writing down numbers, it appears original. I enjoy driving it as much as I want, & when this 454 poops out, I will likely find another 454, ditto the Muncie and the rear and drive it some more. So this is the niche I like, ha! but just me.
The most important thing is to think about what you really want and not over pay for something that is misrepresented. This is actually a bit of a challenge to achieve BTW. Experience, Corvette clubs, shows, NCRS, this forum and friends all increase your knowledge. Checking prices, auctions, completed ebay and watching the market all help to triangulate your opinion on what things sell for.
Last edited by 20mercury; Jan 5, 2017 at 10:00 PM.
I think it's also important to be able to pick out that "dog" where someone did a crappy job patching up a rusted frame....To realize that these things can't be painted for "under a grand" or through back together from a box of parts in a month or two....I ran across all of the above while looking for my 72.
As far as numbers matching goes....Much like the OP I couldn't afford a driver quality, steel bumper, rust issue free corvette....I did want one that looked stock and that is what I working towards but I don't get to hung up about it.
Designer Imagines A Corvette That Looks More Like a Corvette Than the Corvette
Slideshow: A Jaguar designer's personal project imagines what a modern front-engined Corvette might look like if Chevrolet revisited the golden age of the Stingray.
How to spot a fake
