BeeHives are the way to go. I have never broken a spring. I just don't think that it's even something to worry about in low lift and low rpm motors.

The next step should be some 1.8 roller rockers

 

Gary: What part of what I said was misleading? I stated that the BBC has a heavy valve train and component selection is critical to make a hydraulic roller BBC rev over 6000. If you can make them rev to 6500 then that's great but I don't see how that contradicts anything I said.

As for running single springs: I've heard it both ways. Your view that the double spring will save the motor in case of spring failure and others saying the inner spring is so weak it won't make a difference. For me, time will tell.

As far as I know GM doesn't use double springs on anything. Even the high reving LS2 and LS7 runs single beehive springs.

 

I had a flat tappet solid cam from crane with 256 264 @.050 with .648 lift. Loved the cam, great mid range charge. With your 540 it will seem alot milder.
The 10 pounds seat pressure will not harm anything

 

Hi Zwede, that's why I put the word "little" in there. We can get the "float" point somewhat higher than your estimate even with factory parts. We've been doing a fair amount of testing to try to get to 7500 RPM, this is the level we need to be able to make 800 HP on "pump-gas" hyd. roller retro's (540 platform). Let me expand on something while I'm here. One issue mentioned up here I have yet to encounter and that is this (not specific to you): I see much about lifters
"collapsing" with high spring pressure's, we're at 160+ closed and 400+ open (@ .750" lift) and absolutely no "ticking" whatsoever. Also this is still on "cast" cams, one that has been in constant "marine" use and has no premature wear on the lobes. This is some of the issues that I don't personally come across that many have problems over. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. We have a few units coming up with "Titanium" valves, which should put us "over-the-edge". The main problem with getting there however is the cost factor. As for the "single" spring issue, I can't see my way clear yet on those "Bee-hives". I can add this here with 100% accuracy, when we use the "Titanium" valves in race app's., we can get literally get "season's" out of real roller springs, not a certain number of runs, but season's. I'm not sure I knowthe size of your particular unit with the 224* cam, but we use those specs when we want nothing but gas mileage. Of course it does depend on how many C.I.'s you're working on. A 224* cam in a 283" unit would be a race oriented "stick", in a 540" unit it would "dissappear". We do have 7500 RPM on the SB's now with the retro's.

 

Hi Gary, Sounds like we're saying the same thing. My point was that where going a little wrong on a SBC application usually isn't a big deal since the valve train is pretty light. Doing the same error (in spring rates) on a BBC and you get that dreaded 5700-5800 rpm float. But you're right that making a hydro roller BBC rev over 6K is not rocket science and doesn't take high-end parts, just careful selection.

As for the cam in my motor, you're joining the choire here on the forum, although you're more polite... the usual term I hear of the cam is "wimpy".

It works for me though. Car runs 12's through full exhaust on street tires and gets 21 mpg highway. The motor is a 454, BTW.

 

Come on Markus, the correct term is "weenie".

 

1 more thing i have to ask, have u had any problems with those CC self-locking rocker nuts? Well i did and can't trust'm now without a thin backup nut.

Now let me hi-jack the thead a little while all the experts are here and ask what would cause a brand new lifter to tick/clack. I still have just 1 that does and only after warm up. Quite on start-up then progresses louder. I was thinking too little pre-load but now may just have a bad lifter. My lifters and Crane Hi-Intensity that came with the Energizer cam. Yes i need to pop the vlv cover and get the stethescope out to find it.

Anyone? cardo0

 

Never used the CC nuts. Those are sealed power I got at a parts store. The previous set was manley and even though a few were getting really easy to turn, they never backed off.

The lifter could have some dirt in it either from manufacturing or install. Before tearing anything down try a pint of marvel mystery oil poured into the crankcase. MMO has very strong detergents. I've fixed more than one clacking lifter that way. Sure beats taking it all apart. Worst case it still clacks and you're out $2.49.

 

Hey, sounds good. I happen to have some MMO on the shelf and due to change oil anyways.
Coicidence but i produced an oil leak when i changed to tall vlv covers - kind'a panicked as when i reset the vlvs with the double nuts the preload stayed in place (no more lose rockers) but tappet noise moved to the p-side. Preload is only 1/4 turn tight BTW but the other vlvs are quite and everything is smooth when i start it up. Anyways need to return old vlv covers that didn't leak but may have to pull the intake anyways as oil seems to be spilling over from the rear China wall.

Thx. cardo0

 

Another pic showing something interesting. Notice the multiple wear patterns on top of this intake valve. I checked around and the consensus is this indicates the dreaded F-word... that's right: Valve Float. When it floats the valve spins and then creates a new wear pattern. All intake valves have it but only one exhaust. Makes sense as the heavy intake valve will float first.

 

Norval: "I had a flat tappet solid cam from crane with 256 264 @.050 with .648 lift. Loved the cam, great mid range charge. With your 540 it will seem alot milder."

There's you a cam Markus!! We can even put it on a 112 LSA for nice cruising!


Weenie, Wimpy, Weenie, Wimpy.....and STILL has valvetrain issues. Might as well step up to a REAL cam and make it worthwhile!!


JIM

 

But then I won't get 21 MPG!

 

THAT would be the NEW challenge!!

I mean c'mon...you got whizbang tune-on-the-fly capabilities!

JIM

 

Hmmm... maybe we'll make a deal. You give up that fuel leak you call a carburetor and switch to EFI and I'll get a solid roller! How about something around 245 dgr or so?

 

But hey it's a sorta "controlled leak"!!

Hmmmm....EFI......you think I could get 18 mpg?

But you know I'm cheap!

How 'bout a converted Hilborn "caliope" injector stack system? THAT would be cool with EFI! Might have to modify the hood....or maybe a crossram style.

I keep thinking of building my own intake with two Dominators to fit under the stock hood!


245-250* solid roller.....now we're talking! No rev problems....you can go to the moon!

Hey.Nick has a CamMotion you can try!

What if we try the solid rollers on the Hyd cam trick?



JIM

 

Yeah, converted Hilborn! Run that new FAST ECU or a BigStuff 3 and you can tune each cylinder individually. Timing and fueling.

You could get your 18 MPG and the rest of us could drive behind you without looking like chimney sweepers!

 

Didn't Nick tell you about the *FUN* the guys had with the BigStuff 3?

Brand new C5R 900+ Hp motor, decided to try BS3 because the made a great deal to get publicity for them using it. Literally spent a week trying to get it to run. Had to run phone lines to dyno cell and literally spend 14 hour stretches on the phone with designers and tuners that make it. They tried various downloads (numerous) and still not right. Now they know it works because the fastest cars in the country are using it. They mainly wanted to have data logging ability..that was it. Anyway, after 35-40 gallons of C-16 race gas, still no real pulls on the dyno. Timing moving around everywhere etc etc. They offered to fly down the two days before they were supposed to attend a big race, but by them the motor already needed rebuilding. Too many heat cycles on the aluminum rods and valvesprings. Even if it had been made to run, they wouldn't try a pull and take a chance on destruction.

I don't think they were too confident in the designers ability to diagnose it.

But I'm sure it will work..or they'll just throw the batch fire back on it..it was making 860+ Hp with LS-1 heads!

JIM

 

Nope, didn't hear about that one. Which guys was it?

 

Well i had an off aligned vlv tip wear pattern too but since i'm using a 5,000rpm pill in my MSD6AL i don't even suspect float. I guess i could be floating at less than 5K rpm but unlikely - infact i had that of-aligned pattern even before i got to spin it up past 4K as i recall.
This was disscussed on the forum before and some feel vlv rotation is not a bad thing as the mfr's are trying to design it in - some advantages i don't recall though Olds used it yrs ago to help keep a seat to seal. But yes, i'm sure that a floating vlv could do it to.
Since there's nothing to stake a vlv in position something like a backfire/missfire while vlv off it's seat could spin the vlv a littlle.

Just my 2 pennys again but i do feel better now for it.
cardo0

 

My main machine shop/race guys.


JIM