Looking for input from LM-1 users.......
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2004
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Looking for input from LM-1 users.......
I've been toying with the idea of chassis dyno tuning my 69 L36 to get my Q-Jet squared away. Since it will probably take a couple of hours of dyno time at $150 per hour the cost of the LM-1 unit doesn't look too bad anymore. My question is in regards to the welded bung required to install the O2 sensor. I have stock cast iron manifolds, the right side has a spacer to duplicate the thickness of the missing heat riser butterfly assembly. I'm thinking of installing the O2 sensor in this spacer. I can fab a new one that is taller for more edge distance if I have to. Is this going to mount the sensor too close? I'd rather not cut into my stainless exhaust system if I don't have to.
Thanks,
Warren
Thanks,
Warren
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,526
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From: Oak Ridge NC
69monzared,
I was thinking about this as well. I have stock manifolds with an open flow through exhaust. I was wondering if you would have to install a sensor on both sides.
Innovative has an exhaust clamp. Looks like you connect the sensor into the exhaust clamp and the clamp on the exhaust pipe. Did you look into this?
Paul
I was thinking about this as well. I have stock manifolds with an open flow through exhaust. I was wondering if you would have to install a sensor on both sides.
Innovative has an exhaust clamp. Looks like you connect the sensor into the exhaust clamp and the clamp on the exhaust pipe. Did you look into this?
Paul
Race Director
Joined: Sep 1999
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From: Plano TX
The exhaust clamp in the tail pipe is not a good solution. Some air will get in a mess up the readings. Not so much at WOT but you'll see it at cruise which I think you'd want to tune also.
Putting the sensor in the manifold spacer might work but is risky. The widebands want to be further downstream than narrow bands. Not sure why you don't want to put the bung in your exhaust pipe? It's the best location, by far. Just before the pipe goes through the tranny crossmember is perfect. Cool enough for the sensor to work well, close enough to the engine so the delay is short. The further back you go, the more of a delay you will have between what the engine is doing and the reading off the sensor.
Putting the sensor in the manifold spacer might work but is risky. The widebands want to be further downstream than narrow bands. Not sure why you don't want to put the bung in your exhaust pipe? It's the best location, by far. Just before the pipe goes through the tranny crossmember is perfect. Cool enough for the sensor to work well, close enough to the engine so the delay is short. The further back you go, the more of a delay you will have between what the engine is doing and the reading off the sensor.
Thread Starter
Instructor
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Paul,
I've been following posts from Eddie 70 on this forum. Looks like the exhaust clamp is kind of inadequate. I don't know how close of how far the sensor has to be to the flame. Maybe someone else will chime in.
Warren
I've been following posts from Eddie 70 on this forum. Looks like the exhaust clamp is kind of inadequate. I don't know how close of how far the sensor has to be to the flame. Maybe someone else will chime in.
Warren
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: S.W. Ohio. . . . . . NRA Life Member
I have the LM-1 and did some tuning on my 2002 Corvette. I haven't yet tried to use it on the wifes 1973 L82. Mainly because it's running great.
I have heard that WB O2 setups do not work well with radical cams - where there's a lot of overlap.
I have heard that WB O2 setups do not work well with radical cams - where there's a lot of overlap.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 1999
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From: Plano TX
Paul, it's not a bad idea to put a bung in each pipe. That way you can move the sensor between the pipes to make sure they read the same. But since you can't tune the banks independently, it really is an academic excercise. Just reading one side is enough.
Mike: Any O2 sensor (narrow or wideband) will read lean at idle if you have a radical cam. Nothing wrong with the sensor, it's reading what's really there. Keep in mind they read oxygen so if you have misfires at idle (which is all the "rumpity-rump" is) there will be extra O2 in the exhaust. It will still read right when driving though.
Mike: Any O2 sensor (narrow or wideband) will read lean at idle if you have a radical cam. Nothing wrong with the sensor, it's reading what's really there. Keep in mind they read oxygen so if you have misfires at idle (which is all the "rumpity-rump" is) there will be extra O2 in the exhaust. It will still read right when driving though.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
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From: League City Tx
Its possible that it can burn the wideband O2 sensor out from too much heat but I doubt it on a stock type motor, that spacer would probably be a fine place to install it.
I have an LM1 on my turbo-hayabusa and I have the O2 about 3" out from the exhaust turbine housing on the turbo(ie. very freakin close and very freakin hot) My bike makes 317rwhp out of 1300ccs, 4cyl, so don't think that lil turbo is not dumping some serious heat into the sensor. I have had in like this for about 2-3k miles. I recently dynoed the bike with an air fuel sniffer and compare the reading to the LM1 readings they were withing .3-.4 of each other. Very close. Tune it for 12.8-1 AFR at WOT, 13.2-13.5-1 at cruise range and 13.5-13.8-1 at idle unless you live in a cold climate. I live in houston and my bike still likes a 12.8-1 AFR at idle.(no choke)
OR you could just spend the money, dyno it, spend some time tuning on the dyno and be done with it.
Once you get the LM1 on there, you will be phucking with the car all the time trying to keep it perfect, its like opening "Pandoras Box" when you get an LM1 and you see what its really doing. LOL
I have an LM1 on my turbo-hayabusa and I have the O2 about 3" out from the exhaust turbine housing on the turbo(ie. very freakin close and very freakin hot) My bike makes 317rwhp out of 1300ccs, 4cyl, so don't think that lil turbo is not dumping some serious heat into the sensor. I have had in like this for about 2-3k miles. I recently dynoed the bike with an air fuel sniffer and compare the reading to the LM1 readings they were withing .3-.4 of each other. Very close. Tune it for 12.8-1 AFR at WOT, 13.2-13.5-1 at cruise range and 13.5-13.8-1 at idle unless you live in a cold climate. I live in houston and my bike still likes a 12.8-1 AFR at idle.(no choke)
OR you could just spend the money, dyno it, spend some time tuning on the dyno and be done with it.
Once you get the LM1 on there, you will be phucking with the car all the time trying to keep it perfect, its like opening "Pandoras Box" when you get an LM1 and you see what its really doing. LOL
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Thread Starter
Instructor
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As of this moment I'm leaning toward the LM-1 as opposed to the chassis dyno. I'm having difficulty finding an agreeable dyno shop for my carbureted big block, most specialize in imports or 98 and up vehicles. Looks like an early Christmas present could be in the works. Thanks for everyone's input. Nice weather today, I wish I had it now!
Warren
Warren
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Oak Ridge NC
Originally Posted by 69monzaredbigblock
As of this moment I'm leaning toward the LM-1 as opposed to the chassis dyno. I'm having difficulty finding an agreeable dyno shop for my carbureted big block, most specialize in imports or 98 and up vehicles. Looks like an early Christmas present could be in the works. Thanks for everyone's input. Nice weather today, I wish I had it now!
Warren
Warren
Ok 69monza....I jumped in the boat...bought an LM1 off of sleezebay last night...I am going to have the muffler shop weld the bung in. I decided to put it in the exhaust pipe before the crossmember. I'll probably get a bung on the other side as well just for kicks.
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
The problem with dyno tuning is finding someone that knows what they are doing with regards to carb tuning. These people are getting very hard to find these days. Chassis dynos are usually leased and are someones idea of making a few bucks. The best I have seen is someone changing jets and making timing adjustments for "dyno tuning". This is the very basic stuff you can do yourself.
If you really want to tune your carb properly buy an LM-1 and go to the Innovate site to their forums where you will learn how to make adjustments to your carb that will make it perform the way it should on your particular motor giving you the best performance as well as the best gas mileage possible, comparable to modern fuel injection
If you really want to tune your carb properly buy an LM-1 and go to the Innovate site to their forums where you will learn how to make adjustments to your carb that will make it perform the way it should on your particular motor giving you the best performance as well as the best gas mileage possible, comparable to modern fuel injection
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,526
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From: Oak Ridge NC
Originally Posted by MotorHead
The problem with dyno tuning is finding someone that knows what they are doing with regards to carb tuning. These people are getting very hard to find these days. Chassis dynos are usually leased and are someones idea of making a few bucks. The best I have seen is someone changing jets and making timing adjustments for "dyno tuning". This is the very basic stuff you can do yourself.
If you really want to tune your carb properly buy an LM-1 and go to the Innovate site to their forums where you will learn how to make adjustments to your carb that will make it perform the way it should on your particular motor giving you the best performance as well as the best gas mileage possible, comparable to modern fuel injection
If you really want to tune your carb properly buy an LM-1 and go to the Innovate site to their forums where you will learn how to make adjustments to your carb that will make it perform the way it should on your particular motor giving you the best performance as well as the best gas mileage possible, comparable to modern fuel injection
Thread Starter
Instructor
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SmokinBBC,
Did you opt for the unit with the RPM converter? I'd like to order from a Corvette Forum sponsor. Is Innovate Motor Sports a sponsor of this forum?
Did you opt for the unit with the RPM converter? I'd like to order from a Corvette Forum sponsor. Is Innovate Motor Sports a sponsor of this forum?
Last edited by 69monzaredbigblock; Nov 25, 2006 at 09:51 AM.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,526
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From: Oak Ridge NC
Originally Posted by 69monzaredbigblock
SmokinBBC,
Did you opt for the unit with the RPM converter? I'd like to order from a Corvette Forum sponsor. Is Innovate Motor Sports a sponsor of this forum?
Did you opt for the unit with the RPM converter? I'd like to order from a Corvette Forum sponsor. Is Innovate Motor Sports a sponsor of this forum?
No. I got the basic model. No RPM converter. I don't know if innovative is a sponsor or not. I got mine from a speedshop selling on sleezebay. It was about $50 cheaper than buying direct from Innovative.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
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From: League City Tx
LM1 with LMA3 box, I am logging AFR, RPM, TPS(throttle position), Boost pressure/vac.
You need either the rpm converter or the LMA3 so you can actually log the channels. If not you are just gonna have to watch the LM1 readout when driving down the road, thats next to impossible. WHen you log it, you can see exactly what its doing, at what rpm.
They are handy tools and it would probably be a lot of fun to really tune one in on the street.